48 replies to this topic

[Khobai]

Quote

In theory sure, but I sure cant get the performance curve out of my 4P with PPCs as I can my 4G with an AC20....

Thats because the 4P is terrible. Play a decent ERPPC medium like a Trebuchet 7M with ERPPCs and SRMs and Jumpjets and youll vastly outperform the 4G.

[Vasces Diablo]

There are mornings when I wake up and think "you know what? Today's gonna be the day. Today's gonna be the day that someone doesn't try and point out that fictional giant walking death robots in the future don't line up with the realities of physics and modern technology."

Then I check the forums and I'm sad again.

[Vapor Trail]

CapperDeluxe, on 21 February 2013 - 07:10 AM, said:

I'd like to see some variation in autocannons so you could choose a particular AC20 model that fires rapidly with smaller rounds, or choose a slower one with larger rounds. That way you can pick the one that fits your style. For instance the slower firing one is best for hitting hard and moving on, like on a YenLoWang. But with an Atlas you may want one that continuously lays down fire in which case rapid firing may suit that better.

At this point, what you're talking about is taking a single AC/2 instead of a single AC/10.

With the rate of fire advantage that AC/2s have over the AC/10 they deal equal DPS. The only advantages the AC/10 has over the AC/2 is that it deals all damage to a single location, and it does so with less overall heat. With the AC2 (which fires twice a second, dealing 2 damage per shot, or 4DPS) you wind up scattering that damage over the target.

So... this "fits your style" you speak of would be served just as well by taking a smaller autocannon. Not only that, you would get the benefit of the extended range the lighter autocannon offers, as well as the smaller mass.

Edited by Vapor Trail, 21 February 2013 - 09:28 AM.

[megoblocks]

Khobai, on 21 February 2013 - 08:48 AM, said:

I can do the same thing to you with two ERPPCs, they weigh less, have three times the range, don't use ammo (or risk ammo explosions), disrupt ecm, have a much faster projectile speed, AND fire faster. The only downside is the heat but two ERPPCs is still completely manageable.

Autocannons are absurdly outclassed by PPCs now. There is no reason to use standard autocannons anymore because of the horrendous weight and critical slot usage. UAC/5s are still okay though.

Autocannons still need buffs to projectile speed, ammo per ton, heat, and rate of fire. Also I really liked the LB10X critical hit buff... it just needs to do more damage.

A UAC / AC2 combo (either 2 or 4 total, which I frequently run on a Cata) beat out ERPPCs both in terms of dps generated and heat. 2UAC & 2 AC2s pump out 26 dps at max for 8 heat per second, compared to 4 ERPPCS which generate 13.33 dps for 14.66 heat per second. Even when you factor in jamming, the UAC/AC combo comes out for sustained damage and heat management. And given that the ERPPC combo is generating almost twice as much heat for half the dps, the AC combo can not only stay in the fight longer, but deal much more damage.

[Madw0lf]

Khobai, on 21 February 2013 - 09:13 AM, said:

Thats because the 4P is terrible. Play a decent ERPPC medium like a Trebuchet 7M with ERPPCs and SRMs and Jumpjets and youll vastly outperform the 4G.

Then youre talking about an entirely different 'Mech with an entirely different performance curve. If PPCs are so as superior to AC20s as you say, then I should be able to mimic the performance curve of my 4G in my 4P. (this includes tactics, firing rates, heat, survivability etc.) which, as Ive said I have yet to be able to. I do use PPCs on my 4P to decent success, but in its own role, with its own curve.

So, sorry, but youre wrong.

[Strum Wealh]

BritishJesus, on 21 February 2013 - 07:36 AM, said:

Yeah. What you're talking about are Rotary AutoCannons. They'll might get here eventually. Also they come in the standard 2/5/10/20 also.

http://www.sarna.net...tary_Autocannon

As a point of clarification: RACs only canonically come in the RAC/2 and RAC/5 classes for both tech bases.

As far as canon BattleTech (which is what the Devs are generally using as the basis for MWO) is concerned, there is (as yet) no such thing as a RAC/10 or RAC/20, for either tech base.

Additionally, the IS RACs aren't available until 3062, while (according to page 286 of Tactical Operations) the Clan versions don't enter the production stage until 3073 - so it would likely be quite some time before RACs are seen in MWO.

[Surtr]

Wait, wait, wait. Can we talk about this for a minute.....

[Merky Merc]

Vasces Diablo, on 21 February 2013 - 09:18 AM, said:

There are mornings when I wake up and think "you know what? Today's gonna be the day. Today's gonna be the day that someone doesn't try and point out that fictional giant walking death robots in the future don't line up with the realities of physics and modern technology."

I kind of want to play a game where they do though Accept walking death robots as your mcguffin but everything around them makes sense.

[EmeraldSongbird]

In older Mechwarrior games weren't autocannons burst weapons, that no matter of what type could jam? Or am I thinking of another giant mech fighting game?

[Khobai]

Quote

If PPCs are so as superior to AC20s as you say, then I should be able to mimic the performance curve of my 4G in my 4P.

uh no because jumpjets make ppcs way better. since you can duck behind cover while cooling off and recharging jump jets.

[Madw0lf]

Khobai, on 21 February 2013 - 10:05 AM, said:

uh no because jumpjets make ppcs way better. since you can duck behind cover while cooling off and recharging jump jets.

So? It still produces a different curve than the AC20. In order to be able to accurately state that 2 PPCs can replace an AC20, it needs to be on the same (or similar) chassis with the same performance curve. IOW taking a 4P with 2 PPCs and a ML with a 260 engine should be able to perform just as well as a 4G with an AC20 an ML with a 260. This has not been the case in my experience
.

[DauntlessK]

I'd just like to point out on the sarna page for autocannons (not the RAC):

Quote

An Autocannon is a type of rapid-firing, auto-loading direct-fire ballistic weapon, firing HEAP (High-Explosive Armor-Piercing) or kinetic rounds at targets in bursts. It is, basically, a giant "machine gun" that fires predominantly cased explosive shells...

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Autocannon

I'd also like to point out that it says near the bottom that some A/Cs are multiple-barrel setups (and all RACs are obviously multi-barrel). I think this definetly supports the arguement that they're more akin to machine guns (As quoted above) and do not fire a single shell or short bursts.

[MaddMaxx]

All this thread shows, if anything at all, is that with the Buff to one Weapon, no matter how small or trivial, a whole new set of useless Weapons, that were not useless the previous day, emerge from some unseen fog of despair. It is the true marvel of mans modern technology me thinks.

[Khobai]

Quote

So? It still produces a different curve than the AC20. In order to be able to accurately state that 2 PPCs can replace an AC20, it needs to be on the same (or similar) chassis with the same performance curve.

Performance curve doesn't matter. All that matters is how much damage you do on the score screen at the end. The 4G is a highly flawed design for obvious reasons. The TBT-7M is flexible and good at all ranges. I find it hard to believe that a 4G would ever outdamage a TBT-7M with two ERPPCs and two SRM4s.

The point is autocannons need a buff. Specifically the AC/20. If its taking up 14 tons and 10 crit slots it should be the unrivaled BEST weapon in the game. The fact were even having a debate whether its the best weapon or not is proof that its not as good as it should be.

An AC/20 just doesn't inspire the fear in me that it should.

Edited by Khobai, 21 February 2013 - 10:23 AM.

[Madw0lf]

Khobai, on 21 February 2013 - 10:18 AM, said:

Performance curve doesn't matter. All that matters is how much damage you do on the score screen at the end. The 4G is a highly flawed design for obvious reasons. The TBT is flexible and good at all ranges.

The results on that score screen depend significantly on an individuals skill and style. Put me in that TBT you outlined, even with as much practice as Ive gotten with my 4G (the very first 'Mech I purchased, and its nearly always had an AC20 in it) and I wont nessecarily do nearly as well as in my 4G, or a 'Mech with a similar performance curve.

So yes, to the individual player it can matter a whole heck of alot.

EDIT: As to an AC buff, sure why not, I love me my dakka. Doesnt need it but Ill take it

EDIT 2: Cripes, take the TBT-7K and outfit it like my 4G, identical numbers and equipment, but it probably still wouldnt work as well for me in the same roles.

Edited by Madw0lf, 21 February 2013 - 10:33 AM.

[Vasces Diablo]

Surtr, on 21 February 2013 - 09:54 AM, said:

Wait, wait, wait. Can we talk about this for a minute.....

Crazy to think...that thing is mounted in an airplane.

That car sized gun CAN FLY!

[Eddy Hawkins]

Mercier, on 21 February 2013 - 06:43 AM, said:

the original battletech board game was pretty clear an autocannon was , as the name, a rapid-firing weapon.
Most of the early fiction ( grey death legion books, hoorah ) - stuck with that.

I just wanted to point out:
http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Autocannon
"] The rate of fire of a modern autocannon ranges from 90 rounds per minute (British RARDEN) to 2,500 rounds per minute (GIAT 30). Systems with multiple barrels can have rates of fire over 9,000 (GSh-6-23) rounds per minute.^[1]"

the arguable most famous autocannon, GAU-8 Avenger


from a play balance POV, lasers have to be held on target - autocannons beinga sustained burst, doing damage with a stream of explosive/AP shells, would be only fair - since the original BT weapons balance was based on both weapons doing their damage to a single point target ( which assumes very good gunnery - as now required with lasers - against a moving target)

Just some random thoughts.
Good Hunting, Mercier ( honey badger )

you talk about the original BT and TT but you seem to forget about rotary Auto Cannons? In MW the Autocannon is like the main gun on a tank, and the UACs are like the lower rate of fire weapons you have listed. for the 2000 rns a min there is the Rotary Autocannon.

IRL the US Bradley infantry fighting Vehicle has a 25mm Autocannon and the Apache has a 30mm Autocannon. In game terms they would be described as UACs but the game has them jam much more frequently than they do IRL for balance issues.

The AC20 is like 120mm guns on the US Abrams, German Leopard, and British Challenger

And a RAC would be the Avenger off the A-10

hope this helps clear up any confusion.

[Mackman]

Vapor Trail, on 21 February 2013 - 09:27 AM, said:

At this point, what you're talking about is taking a single AC/2 instead of a single AC/10.

With the rate of fire advantage that AC/2s have over the AC/10 they deal equal DPS. The only advantages the AC/10 has over the AC/2 is that it deals all damage to a single location, and it does so with less overall heat. With the AC2 (which fires twice a second, dealing 2 damage per shot, or 4DPS) you wind up scattering that damage over the target.

So... this "fits your style" you speak of would be served just as well by taking a smaller autocannon. Not only that, you would get the benefit of the extended range the lighter autocannon offers, as well as the smaller mass.

Why is nobody addressing this? The only thing that makes an AC/20 worth taking over an AC/2 (or even two AC/2's) is the concentrated damage. If you want a fast-firing autocannon, get an AC/2 or an AC/5, and your DPS is (in theory) exactly the same as an AC/20, at a fraction of the weight and a far greater range.

[CarnifexMaximus]

I recently played through MW2 Mercs a few weeks back. Have not played it since at least 1998. My first mech purchase in the campaign was a stalker (forced myself to be cheap and run that commando Untill I had the cbills to spend back on Outreach).

I put an AC/20 with 3-4 tons of ammo in that stalker because, you know, who wouldn't want to do that in MWO? I totally forgot how that game really put the "auto" in "autocannon". I only occasionally will burn through 4 tons of AC/20 in a match. But in MW2 the ACs will use that ammo in a few short seconds.

I'm not sure full auto autocannons would sit well with some MWO players. (I might be down)

Also on a side note it was a really good feeling to curb stomp smoke jags in a 5 ml Jenner. Brought back so many good memories of playing that game as a kid.

[Lugh]

Mackman, on 21 February 2013 - 10:49 AM, said:

Why is nobody addressing this? The only thing that makes an AC/20 worth taking over an AC/2 (or even two AC/2's) is the concentrated damage. If you want a fast-firing autocannon, get an AC/2 or an AC/5, and your DPS is (in theory) exactly the same as an AC/20, at a fraction of the weight and a far greater range.

Because they are afraid. Here you go. With knockdowns not in the game, mechwarrior has become a game of Face huggers online, where I run to .5meters in front of you and alpha with all my might. Because I am so ******** I can't hit anything outside of 100m.

So to compete with the the face huggers and put it all on the line at one time you need INSTANT daka...not Sustained Daka..

You NEED to blow there face off in one hit, or they will happily warp and alpha you to death.

WHEN knockdowns were in the game the face huggers often got KNOCKED to the ground and in the 2 seconds it took them to stand up, the opposing teams alphas obliterated them.