55 replies to this topic

[MangoBogadog]

blinkin, on 31 March 2013 - 12:34 AM, said:

i have an ERPPC on my jenner.

I agreed with everything you said but just for this one line...

I have 2 ERPPC on my Jenner K, so much fun!

Streaks are uber powerful against lights, you do in fact see some units running jenners in competition but they need to be all very good pilots and well co-ordinated. Because each time they encounter a Raven 3L they have X number of seconds to take it down because that is the DPS value of the streaks + laser means its nearly always a fairly consistent damage dealer over time.
And All on the CT!

[SVK Puskin]

focuspark, on 30 March 2013 - 11:41 PM, said:

At least with the Stalker the pilot needs to aim and then keep the laser on target for a full second. Streaks on the other hand, just need a lock which can be attained at great range so long as your reticle is somwhere "near" the target. Then to keep the lock, one must only pass the reticle near the target every 2-3 seconds. Once a lock is obtained, Streak pilots need only hold down the fire button as the weapons will not fire if there's no lock or if the target is out range. When fired, the missiles will travel at any angle (straight ahead, 90 degrees to the side, or 180 degrees behind) to reach their target; even to the point of passing through the launching mech's geometry to do so. To make matters worse, the missiles will make incredible aerobatic maneuvers to strike the CT nearly every time.

So while the Stalker pilot with a boat load of Large Lasers needs to actually aim and will find it incredibly difficult to place the damage consistantly in a single location; the Raven pilot with Streaks only needs to have a lock on to continually and without fail strike the CT of his target.

Have I mentioned that the lock on duration and 360 lock on modules make Streaks completely amazing? There's basically no escaping an ECM mech with these modules.

So, there you have it. I may not have defined skill, but I've definitely defined the absence of it.

In 1 vs 1 fight the laser boat Stalker will be a winner always ofcourse with players of the same skill. Light mech can not take many hits from 4-6 large lasers.

[blinkin]

ENS Puskin, on 31 March 2013 - 09:00 AM, said:

In 1 vs 1 fight the laser boat Stalker will be a winner always ofcourse with players of the same skill. Light mech can not take many hits from 4-6 large lasers.

BUT light mechs CAN DODGE laser fire, and to deal damage the stalker has to AIM AT THE TARGET WHEN HE IS FIRING. to deal full damage the stalker must stay on target for 1.00 seconds.

your statement is only true if the light pilot is dumb enough (or inexperienced, new players happen) to stand in front of the stalker (i have seen a few people who are that bad).

just in case this was an attempt to show through sarcasm that lights always win that fight. for a light to solo an assault mech (unless the assault is incredibly dumb) the light would become tied down to an area for an extended period of time. this allows plenty of time for help to arrive or if a superior pilot is in the assault mech there are several tricks that can be used to allow a much slower mech firing opportunities against a much faster mech. i have caught more than a few light pilots by surprize piloting atlai. the really dumb light pilots can be swatted quickly.

[Aim64C]

focuspark, on 30 March 2013 - 11:41 PM, said:

At least with the Stalker the pilot needs to aim and then keep the laser on target for a full second.

So... he pushes the button and tracks a 'dot' or 'picture' with a cursor.

We don't make a big deal about monkeys doing this. We make a big deal about monkeys being able to do this with neural implants.

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Streaks on the other hand, just need a lock which can be attained at great range so long as your reticle is somwhere "near" the target. Then to keep the lock, one must only pass the reticle near the target every 2-3 seconds.

Because keeping track of time amidst an environment where other things are going on requires sufficiently less skill than keeping one picture placed atop another picture.

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Once a lock is obtained, Streak pilots need only hold down the fire button as the weapons will not fire if there's no lock or if the target is out range.

That's like saying all I need to do is look at a mech and mash the laser button. The lasers aren't going to go anywhere other than where my mech is looking.

Any pilot with any sense would wait until the probability of scoring a hit on the desired part presents itself (such as when the mech turns to shoot at you - you can hit it in the face).

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When fired, the missiles will travel at any angle (straight ahead, 90 degrees to the side, or 180 degrees behind) to reach their target; even to the point of passing through the launching mech's geometry to do so. To make matters worse, the missiles will make incredible aerobatic maneuvers to strike the CT nearly every time.

Actually, streaks under-perform according to current missile technology. The fact that they travel through a launching mech's geometry is an artifact of the lazy missile implementation used by PGI (missiles should never "chase" their target).

The only time I've noticed streaks being CT homing nightmares is against mechs with horribly disproportionate CT hitboxes. I've watched plenty of flat-torsoed mechs take streaks to everything but the CT (even when the pilot wasn't trying to avoid them).

That said - an implementation of a more 'true' missile behavior would aleviate some of the "CT homing" issue - as missiles would act to collide with the target instead of simply 'chase' it (which will naturally lead to a lot of CT hits as they will lag the target and align to its vector of motion).

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Have I mentioned that the lock on duration and 360 lock on modules make Streaks completely amazing? There's basically no escaping an ECM mech with these modules.

Honestly, never had much of a problem with these platforms until I started piloting lights. I could see mediums having a bit of difficulty - but most mediums, heavies, and assaults have more than enough firepower in their backup arsenal to compensate.

The problem is... as you say... people don't seem to have enough of this... "skill" thing to understand target lead and "keep one picture atop another picture" to effectively use that arsenal to put down a light mech.

And because another player actually understands how to utilize his/her weapon system - they gain a tactical advantage.

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So, there you have it. I may not have defined skill, but I've definitely defined the absence of it.

Skill is building a realistic-looking model or performing some acrobatic feat.

The things people like to attribute to skill in videogames are basic cognitive functions. The two higher levels of thinking are tactical and strategic thought - which involve thinking about how to use your weapon system to defeat an opponent or control territory, respectively.

You've no more defined what skill isn't than you've established that any weapon system requires "skill" to utilize. It's not like we're dealing with swordcraft, here.

blinkin, on 31 March 2013 - 12:34 AM, said:

what are we supposed to do when we don't have the advantage? run away? i enjoy a hard fight, but when i am beaten by barely conscious morons, who spend most of their time running into buildings, just because they have mastered W+m1 i think it is BS.

If you enter into a fight where you know you have a steep disadvantage, then you should be surprised when you succeed.

If you would rather survive - then you should probably run away. I can't set a player's priorities for them.

Honestly, though, if these people spend so much time acting stupid by trying to procreate with buildings - your demise is hardly a reflection of the weapon system they are using. One must ask: "why are you unable to exploit their stupidity?"

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the advantage they have that no one can mitigate is THEY DON'T HAVE TO AIM. it is not a matter of having a better build. it is all about whether or not they mount ONE WEAPON.

I think streaks do need to be modified in their homing behavior - because they are a little too effective in light on light combat.

Though I suppose the way they could 'correct' this is to make streaks what they were in the table top. SRMs gain a lock-on and homing ability (but can fire without a lock) while Streaks only deduct ammo for each streak that hits.

I can only imagine how that's going to go over.

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what will happen when the SRM6 shows up? should the developers just remove every light mech that does not have any missile hard points?

The current hardpoint system is botched to begin with. It should be a better hybrid of the MW4 system, where there are a certain number of criticals available in each section of the mech for a given weapon system (with support equipment like Artemis taking up a generic critical rather than a weapon specific).

That said - such has always been the problem in the mechwarrior series for online game play. You can't have 'rare' weapon systems that construe huge advantages to the players that attain them (pay to win atmosphere or simply insurmountable competition) - you have to make all of those systems available... which means that other weapon systems are rendered largely obsolete.

The reason lasers were prefered for light mechs over missiles was because a laser could be operated very distant from supply lines - great for the "meta" role of a light mech. They were also very useful amidst the complex battlefield - which would include various vehicles and other such things that you don't want to 'waste' missiles on (particularly when you might find yourself facing off against a battlemech - where you'd want those missiles).

And that is a bit of the reason for the balance issues inherent in Mechwarrior. We are playing solaris - while a lot of the canon mech builds (and their advantages/disadvantages) were geared for war-time use - where you would be considered insane for using your all-LRM build to blow up a tank (though LRM 5s could be useful in this regard).

Builds designed to be effective in Solaris were really only ported to the battlefield when it became necessary to fight against the very mech-driven Clan invasion (so your primary target was a mech).

Part of the "problem" is that a lot of the weapons in the game were not necessarily designed with mechs as their prefered target. And that's all we have in the game - other mechs.

And you can't simulate the fact that a lot of the components everyone is running with right now were exceptionally rare at this time in the lore (even decades afterward). Not and maintain a game where everyone has a realistic opportunity to become competitive. XL engines, ER lasers, double heatsinks, Streak SRMs, Ultra ACs, ECM - all of that is exceptionally rare equipment in the lore.

But you can't limit the supply, or the few players that gain access to those components become exceptionally difficult to compete with.

By 3070 - most of the stuff we are using now is considered "obsolete" even when strictly looking at what is available in the inner sphere. Yet the builds running in 3000 were still very common and maintained into the Word of Blake Jihad by militaries because those parts were available and affordable.

It's that aspect of "the generic stuff is still the most frequent" that cannot be properly simulated in the game. Almost all of us who have been playing a month or more are running at least one premier build that would have only been seen in the most elite of companies or as a noble's personal ride.

[focuspark]

Aim64C, on 31 March 2013 - 01:03 PM, said:

...

Your blind support of you beloved Streak missiles is impressive, I have to say that. Other than that, I pretty much completely do not agree with you. Sorry - I think you're way off base here.

ENS Puskin, on 31 March 2013 - 09:00 AM, said:

In 1 vs 1 fight the laser boat Stalker will be a winner always ofcourse with players of the same skill. Light mech can not take many hits from 4-6 large lasers.

Sure - kind... anyways, let's compare a COM-TDK (4 ML) vs a COM-2D (3 SSRM2). The TDK is moving fast as its target, lasrer fire is likely only partially successful and tracking can be difficult. The 2D got its lock on before being in range and once locked on can just hold down the fire button while being evasive because it doesn't need to aim - ever. Additionally, while the TDK has to work to try and land damage in a single location to punch through armor, the 2D gets to hit the CT over and over by doing nothing other than holding down fire.

How anyone can say these are equal are beyond me...

Edited by focuspark, 31 March 2013 - 01:28 PM.

[Aim64C]

focuspark, on 31 March 2013 - 01:26 PM, said:

Your blind support of you beloved Streak missiles is impressive, I have to say that. Other than that, I pretty much completely do not agree with you. Sorry - I think you're way off base here.

I don't use streaks.

For a one critical weapon, I'd rather have an SRM 4. (or, more correctly, I'd rather have two SRM 4s or one SRM 6, hardpoints permitting). The damage output of SSRM 2s is just too low for them to appeal to me.

About the only mech I would use them on is one designed to be a light mech hunter, like a Centurion or Trebuchet with TAG (because the light I want dead the most is the 3L or the ECM commando) where I could pack a few in and bank on a heavier energy weapon, or something, for dealing with heavier threats.

But, there again, I really don't care about such things as "skill." This is killing people.

It takes "skill" to pull off headshots all the time. Why doesn't everyone spend minutes circling each other trying to hit 1% of a mech's visible area? Because the center or side torsos are far more effective to aim for and, depending upon the mech you are shooting at, represent a lower risk and cost of missing the target, completely.

So it's "cheap" to simply core a mech, rather than doing what is effective.

Applying the same logic.

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Sure - kind... anyways, let's compare a COM-TDK (4 ML) vs a COM-2D (3 SSRM2). The TDK is moving fast as its target, lasrer fire is likely only partially successful and tracking can be difficult. The 2D got its lock on before being in range and once locked on can just hold down the fire button while being evasive because it doesn't need to aim - ever. Additionally, while the TDK has to work to try and land damage in a single location to punch through armor, the 2D gets to hit the CT over and over by doing nothing other than holding down fire.

How anyone can say these are equal are beyond me...

The 2D does have an advantage in this egagement. Streaks are supposed to be effective against light mechs. A light mech sporting them is, obviously, going to be more effective.

That said - I've yet to see the behavior of streaks as you describe. In most battles - mechs are performing some kind of relative circling (they aren't just standing there and shooting at each other like turrets... if they are, they are wrong). Because missiles in this game are programmed to always point at the center mass of their target while flying - this means they 'lag' the target. A mech with a relatively planar torso (as the Commando does) will receive damage to the side opposite its direction of motion when receiving fire from any guided munition in this game (be it an SSRM or an LRM - assuming they are moving slow enough to get hit by LRMs).

This is because the missile will naturally fall behind the target and align to the target's vector of motion. This means that it will hit the trailing portion of the mech.

The exception to this is when the torso geometry permits these trailing hits to land on the CT.

If the game were to use proper intercept behavior of missiles, they could implement a terminal scattering that would resemble the cluster roll of the table top game and reduce the tendency of the missiles to hit the center torso, even against a still target.

This video demonstrates what I'm talking about:



SSRMs will always strike the trailing surface unless you are talking about an absolutely massive CT or one that protrudes considerably.

[blinkin]

Aim64C, on 31 March 2013 - 01:58 PM, said:

I don't use streaks.

you sir have me thoroughly baffled.

in one sentence you say to suck it up because... my understanding of your arguments falls a bit flat here. something about (i know you don't like the word skill) streaks requiring as much effort as lasers (WTF!?).

then just a little later you talk about how streaks are broken and you want a complete rework.

arguing with you feels like being punched in the face and then having the guy that punched me hand me $50.

i will lay my argument out simply:
i would like streaks to require roughly the same amount of effort to opperate as most other weapons. sweeping lasers across a target quickly might do a single point of damage, sweeping the target reticle across the target gets you another direct hit with your streaks.

i have said it before, maybe even in this thread. if there were no light mechs streaks would be fairly well balanced, but that is not the case.

PS: you can't run away when the mech with streaks is a light that is the same speed or faster than you. that was the point of my running away comment, most of the time you can't so you just get to bend over and take it.

Edited by blinkin, 31 March 2013 - 10:22 PM.

[Hobietime]

Aim64C, on 30 March 2013 - 01:24 AM, said:

Partially true.

Missiles in MWO use "chase" guidance... something that has -never- been done in the real world.

Because it isn't at all practical unless the velocity of the missile is at least ten times that of the target. Which... if you're shooting at a mech moving 100 kph - you need a missile traveling about 278 meters per second (1000 kph) to be useful in this scenario. Expand that to the velocities of aircraft (where intercepting targets with guided missiles was a hot topic) and 'chase' simply doesn't work unless you're talking about a guided rail gun projectile.

Current missiles predict a sort of intercept course using a number of different methods - with modern missiles using thrust vectoring and datalinking. So, they will leap off the rail of the firing aircraft and nail some SOB behind it. They'll also come off the rail nearly perpendicular to their angle of fire to gain a proper intercept.

For people who haven't played true air combat simulators - the behavior is often met with shock and a bit of skepticism as to whether or not such things are possible in the real world.

Anyway - streaks behave alright unless you're a Jenner. Then it's practically impossible to use any form of torso twist to avoid getting your CT blown out. The things hit your front CT from behind, even, and it's a bit frustrating.

This guy gets it.

Here is a post (and a reply that said we might get) proportional navigation I created a few weeks ago:

http://mwomercs.com/...97#entry1780197

It goes over the basics and how it would help the game.

[Aim64C]

blinkin, on 31 March 2013 - 09:13 PM, said:

you sir have me thoroughly baffled.

That's because you believe you are correct.

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in one sentence you say to suck it up because... my understanding of your arguments falls a bit flat here. something about (i know you don't like the word skill) streaks requiring as much effort as lasers (WTF!?).

Both are tasks so exceptionally simple and basic that I do not see classifying them according to skill as a meaningful endeavor. It's like trying to classify bargain-bin pens according to the quality of construction.

You're not a Knight, trained from an early age in the arts of swordcraft if you can properly utilize a laser beam in this game. Or put an autocannon round into a moving target.

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then just a little later you talk about how streaks are broken and you want a complete rework.

They are broken because their behavior produces very erratic results. The purpose of any weapon system is to behave in a relatively consistent manner and provide consistent results.

This is -especially- true in the world of game development, where consistent results give something to balance with.

For example - a weapon that can one-shot virtually any mech is not balanced, no matter how much "skill" is involved in putting the round on target (IE - how arbitrarily difficult/unlikely the task has become to try and create the illusion of balance).

Streaks perform very inconsistently across their target ranges. A Jenner has its front torso blown out from -behind- by streaks. They rarely hit the Center Torso of the Trebuchet and Stalker - with relatively narrow center torso hitboxes that are 'sheilded' by their left and right torso.

I've sat and watched people use them after I've died, and paid attention to where the damage is being done.

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arguing with you feels like being punched in the face and then having the guy that punched me hand me $50.

To be fair - I'm principled like that. Punches in the face shall be rendered, as well as payment where appropriate.

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i will lay my argument out simply:
i would like streaks to require roughly the same amount of effort to opperate as most other weapons. sweeping lasers across a target quickly might do a single point of damage, sweeping the target reticle across the target gets you another direct hit with your streaks.

Why?

They consume a missile hardpoint for a weapon that potentially gives a mere 4 points of damage (but can be intercepted by AMS) and requires a missile lock to use (which is one reason I like standard SRMs). My Jenner Foxtrot has 6 medium lasers that dish out damage at 3 points every 10th of a second (assuming I fire all at once). For the weight of 4 SSRM 2s - I can simply rake my lasers across a mech and deal a minimum of 9 damage. It's rare for me to not have at least half of my firing time on target - which is roughly equal to the potential damage output of 4 SSRM 2s.

It's kind of sick how fast that thing can rip up an Atlas - especially if I've got a couple clear shots at its back - and I've found it can be quite potent against other lights, particularly if I just aim hip-level and deposit damage into torso or leg sections.

There are a few changes I would recommend making to streaks. I'd limit them to a 120 degree field of fire (centered front) - a pretty big thing about later mech designs is the popularity of incorporating rearward firing SRM launchers and arms that could swivel all the way around to engage targets behind the mech (I -want- a Madcat Mk IV ... so badly). Further, since Streaks only fire when each missile reports that it has a lock - there's a lore basis for limiting the missiles to firing only within their seeker's field of view.

A lock could be maintained through 360 degrees - but can't fire until each missile reports it has a lock on the target (which would require the target to be within that field of view).

Giving them proportional navigation with a scattering/clustering would go a long way toward making them perform more consistently across the various target geometries (something like a Jenner is always going to take a bit more damage to its center torso, as well as the dragon, catapult, etc - but the streaks won't necessarily be homing in on the center of mass - or center torso).

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i have said it before, maybe even in this thread. if there were no light mechs streaks would be fairly well balanced, but that is not the case.

PS: you can't run away when the mech with streaks is a light that is the same speed or faster than you. that was the point of my running away comment, most of the time you can't so you just get to bend over and take it.

So... when a Trebuchet runs into my Jenner Kilo with 6 medium lasers and finds that I'm quite difficult to hit and can clip/core it with insane efficiency... it's somehow a more justified scenario because lasers require a tiny amount of effort more than streaks?

Or when I run into a cataphract and get foot blown off by a pair of gauss rifles - that's also different?

Surely - the amount of "effort" required to achieve the insta-limp and the sheared trebuchet justify the overwhelming advantages granted under those scenarios.

More than 90% of the time in this game - I'm killing or being killed. There's a rare portion, less than 10% of the time, where I feel like I'm having a contest of "skill." Such as this one time it was down to me in my Jenner Delta (chewed on a bit) and a Stalker (of some variety or another) - a little chewed on, but less so than me (proportionately). He was very good at keeping me in his firing arcs - and I had to put some craft into my movement to avoid moving predictably while protecting my already armorless center torso (if I remember correctly - it had already lost all of its armor by time it came down to him and I).

That was a contest of skill - both of us on opposite sides of almost every metric. I had the speed and mobility; he had the armor and firepower. We were both having to pay very close attention to our weaknesses while making sure to play on our strengths.

But most of the time - I'm killing people or being killed. I don't look at what I'm doing as "skill" - I look at it as effective or ineffective. The only real thing I see as having a notable amount of skill in this game is that of piloting. Moving one direction, pointing another (based on whether you are dealing or receiving damage - which involves predicting the firing habits of your opponents) while avoiding obstacles does take an application of experience and intelligence that is worth recognizing.

But when it comes to weapon systems... using them effectively is kind of like having a highschool diploma - you're not wearing a dunce cap.

But I've strayed here, considerably... ranting and raving and probably making more than a few people hate me to the point that they will start posting screen shots of games they've played with me where I've sucked. Had a few recent embarassments in my K2... I really need to play that thing more often so I get better at it. Problem is that everything I shoot at has two gauss rifles or half a million PPCs these days... Where I used to be shooting at LRM boats with it - I'm now peeking my head out at a whole team of snipers.

[Troutmonkey]

Aim64C, on 31 March 2013 - 11:45 PM, said:

...

You sir are really unbeleivable. You really have no idea what constitutes skill and what doesn't. Aiming lasers with twisting around and circling at 100km/h does take skill. If you suck you will miss quit a bit, if you are good you will hit most of the time.

I run Jenners. Getting killed by Streaks is cheaper because it is much easier to use than Lasers.
Sure my Med-Pulse Lasers wreck anything bigger than me, but it requires careful precision on my part to avoid incoming damage by manauvering in and out of cover and going for rear-armour shots.

When I run into another light with anything other than Streaks it becomes a contest of who can leverage their skill to land the most hits and avoid the most damage. When I fight a mech wielding Streaks it becomes an instant one way "you lose" button and I die to CT hits in a matter of moments. Even if I pilot to 100% of my ability I -cannot- defeat a SSRM user because regardless of how well I'm playing I cannot hit 100% of the time like Streaks do. When you face streaks there's not even any point in moving really, because it makes no difference- they always hit, and they always hit the centre torso.

Streaks need to be more random about their hit locations, or require more effort on the user behalf to aquire a lock / a hit.

[blinkin]

Aim64C, on 31 March 2013 - 11:45 PM, said:

That's because you believe you are correct.

no it is because you are arguing both sides of the argument very vehemently.

most people tend to only let one of their personalities make statements when posting on the forums.

and your aiming skill analogies imply that either you have skills roughly equivalent to an aim bot hack or you have never played the game outside of the testing grounds.

if lasers dealt damage to me just as well as streaks do, like you describe, i would have abandoned playing light mechs altogether a long time ago. consistantly keeping your crosshair on target while your lasers fire against a target that is going over 120kph while you yourself are going over 120kph is not as simple as the point and click you describe. especially when both are trying to dodge each other's shots weaving through terrain back, forth, up, and down.

if lasers were as easy to use as streaks, then a light mech that has had a leg blown off would survive just as well as one that wasn't crippled. <-my experience tells me that is not the case. from what i have seen most light mechs that lose a leg live less than 10 seconds after that leg is gone.

dealing SOME damage is incredibly easy. dealing enough damage to matter is a great deal harder.

the primary defense of a light mech is the ability to dodge fire. if lasers were as easy to use as you describe most light mechs would die very quickly to assaults, heavies, or the hunchback 4p i fought yesterday with 9 lasers (it was a very long fight and i harrased him for several minutes throughout the match), this is not the case.

streaks completely ignore the primary defense of light mechs, the ability to dodge. there is no skill or tactic that allows you to combat them. all you can do is hope the larger friendly mechs nearby care enough to shoot at the streak mech and that you can survive the hits as you come back to your team.

[Cyke]

Here's something I posted a while ago..
Maybe Streaks shouldn't have a "hold, achieve confirmed lock-on, fire" mechanic, but instead should have a bit of a "risk" involved.

- You must point at an enemy 'Mech with your torso/arm crosshair, and click fire
- If you're on-target, the Streaks immediately fire with full tracking, almost a sure hit
- If you're off-target, the Streaks do not fire (thus no ammo consumed or heat generated), but need to go through their full 3.5 second cooldown cycle.


Unlike current lock-on, you can't "pre-guarantee" a hit before firing. There's also a big risk of "wasting" a cooldown cycle, thus adding the risk of a "miss" (though the miss uses up no ammo).
Also, you may notice that in this idea, the skill used is basically about the same as firing a laser. Sure, you don't need to continue tracking the target for 1.0 seconds like a laser, but on the other hand, you can't target a specific body location (each individual missile should randomly track and hit different body parts on the enemy).

The TT "hit" or "miss" roll result is translated into the realtime MWO skill of "crosshair on target" or "crosshair not on target" at the moment the player presses the fire button.
This is completely consistent with the (well-accepted) manner in which a TT hit or miss for a laser is translated into realtime MWO.

There is the additional benefit of future-proofing Streak SRM design for the coming of the Clans.. since larger Streak missle packs (4 and 6) can be balanced with a longer recycle time (as is already common practice in current weapon design), this also effectively increases the time cost of a "miss".

Edited by Cyke, 01 April 2013 - 02:45 AM.

[SVK Puskin]

blinkin, on 31 March 2013 - 10:57 AM, said:

BUT light mechs CAN DODGE laser fire, and to deal damage the stalker has to AIM AT THE TARGET WHEN HE IS FIRING. to deal full damage the stalker must stay on target for 1.00 seconds.

your statement is only true if the light pilot is dumb enough (or inexperienced, new players happen) to stand in front of the stalker (i have seen a few people who are that bad).

just in case this was an attempt to show through sarcasm that lights always win that fight. for a light to solo an assault mech (unless the assault is incredibly dumb) the light would become tied down to an area for an extended period of time. this allows plenty of time for help to arrive or if a superior pilot is in the assault mech there are several tricks that can be used to allow a much slower mech firing opportunities against a much faster mech. i have caught more than a few light pilots by surprize piloting atlai. the really dumb light pilots can be swatted quickly.

Sure, light mech can avoid some shots/hits but not always and 2 good alphastrikes and light mech has critical demage or it is destroyed and for me(and i think for many players as well) lasers are best weapons to hit the target. If i see 4-6 laser boat loadout i am very carefull becuase i know this is very dangerous for me as light pilot. I am average or above average light mech pilot.

[SVK Puskin]

focuspark, on 31 March 2013 - 01:26 PM, said:

Sure - kind... anyways, let's compare a COM-TDK (4 ML) vs a COM-2D (3 SSRM2). The TDK is moving fast as its target, lasrer fire is likely only partially successful and tracking can be difficult. The 2D got its lock on before being in range and once locked on can just hold down the fire button while being evasive because it doesn't need to aim - ever. Additionally, while the TDK has to work to try and land damage in a single location to punch through armor, the 2D gets to hit the CT over and over by doing nothing other than holding down fire.

How anyone can say these are equal are beyond me...

Yeah your example is different story and i agree, ECM Commando with good pilot is pure hell.

Edited by ENS Puskin, 01 April 2013 - 03:50 AM.

[Yokaiko]

focuspark, on 29 March 2013 - 11:22 PM, said:

... yeah, no missile made by man flies like SSRM do. I see them fire out of the front torso of a COM-2D, make an abrupt &quot;J&quot; turn and come for me behind him. Makes no sense.

Go look up Rolling Airframe Missiles (RAM).

They are designed to take out other missiles and can do a 180 at VERY high G loads in order to hit.

[focuspark]

Yokaiko, on 01 April 2013 - 09:07 AM, said:

Go look up Rolling Airframe Missiles (RAM).

They are designed to take out other missiles and can do a 180 at VERY high G loads in order to hit.

Yes, if fired from a high velocity platform such that they can take advantage of air resistance to do their "magic". Mechs don't move that fast and this happens with mech standing still. To this is basically a fallacious argument.

[Yokaiko]

focuspark, on 01 April 2013 - 09:12 AM, said:

Yes, if fired from a high velocity platform such that they can take advantage of air resistance to do their &quot;magic&quot;. Mechs don't move that fast and this happens with mech standing still. To this is basically a fallacious argument.

heThey are mounted on ships killer. Not exactly screaming, the fastest warships go around 50knots.

[blinkin]

ENS Puskin, on 01 April 2013 - 03:40 AM, said:

Sure, light mech can avoid some shots/hits but not always and 2 good alphastrikes and light mech has critical demage or it is destroyed and for me(and i think for many players as well) lasers are best weapons to hit the target. If i see 4-6 laser boat loadout i am very carefull becuase i know this is very dangerous for me as light pilot. I am average or above average light mech pilot.

i never said lasers weren't a threat, but there are ways to protect yourself rom laser damage through evasive manuevering. i have been in front of the laser boat before when he has fired. i have escaped the laser boat taking very minimal damage, by using my high speed and jump jets. i have NEVER escaped streak damage.

[Yokaiko]

blinkin, on 01 April 2013 - 11:07 AM, said:

i never said lasers weren't a threat, but there are ways to protect yourself rom laser damage through evasive manuevering. i have been in front of the laser boat before when he has fired. i have escaped the laser boat taking very minimal damage, by using my high speed and jump jets. i have NEVER escaped streak damage.

You have you just don't know it.

When I look at stats my hit rates with lasers are higher than my SSRM rates. By 12-18%. The biggest issue is location, they don't spread damage it all but assured to hit CT every damn time. EVERY time. If I had a dollar for every time I died to a streak spamming raven with everything except my CT barely scratched I'd have a new truck.

[blinkin]

Yokaiko, on 01 April 2013 - 11:37 AM, said:

You have you just don't know it.

When I look at stats my hit rates with lasers are higher than my SSRM rates. By 12-18%. The biggest issue is location, they don't spread damage it all but assured to hit CT every damn time. EVERY time. If I had a dollar for every time I died to a streak spamming raven with everything except my CT barely scratched I'd have a new truck.

laser hit rates are currently a very blatant lie. currently i have 93.31% hit rate with medium lasers. i have 935 hits. my total damage is 2,290. with the use of my handy calculator that comes out to 2.45 damage per shot. medium lasers are supposed to hit for 5. regardless of what my accuracy stats say at least 50% of my damage is not connecting.

so in reality my hit rate for my medium laser is in the 40% range, but your streak stats are very likely true to reality. if you divide your streak damage by your streak hits it will likely come out very close to the listed damage of streaks.


what i have been trying to say is that with tactics and skill a good light pilot can protect themselves from the majority of laser fire, but anything with streaks just gets free hits on any light mech within range.