53 replies to this topic

[Tennex]

Please vote.

Edited by Tennex, 27 April 2013 - 01:30 PM.

[FrostCollar]

Already a clear "mediums are underpowered" trend is emerging. Not exactly surprising.

[blinkin]

a nice simple poll, with little or no opinion involved. well done. maybe we can use this to give the developers a tidbit of useful information.

[Deathlike]

I don't quite understand the "medium" being underpowered thing... outside of the fact that we haven't had more 45 tonners and 55 tonners that would be of certain interest in this class of mechs... you have diversity through the 50 tonners we do have... the Hunchback hammer, the "undead" Centurion, and the missile heavy/speedy mini-poptart in the Trebuchet. Mediums also have the "overweight light mech" in the Cicada.

I'm starting to think there's either an identity crisis or the need to have a more balanced medium (45 tonner like the ShadowCat and future Blackjack) or a stronger heavy (like some future 55-ton Bushwacker/Ryoken).

[Roadbeer]

I think there is a misconception of underpowered vs underplayed in this poll.

I don't often see mediums on the field, but when I do, they are being played well, by people who know how to play them, and doing more than their share of contribution.

[blinkin]

Roadbeer, on 27 April 2013 - 02:35 PM, said:

I think there is a misconception of underpowered vs underplayed in this poll.

I don't often see mediums on the field, but when I do, they are being played well, by people who know how to play them, and doing more than their share of contribution.

he does list both though. it isn't really his fault if the community can't tell the difference.

i am in the same boat, i think the individual weight classes are all mostly balanced, but medium mechs also tend to be underplayed.

[Coughlin]

Roadbeer, on 27 April 2013 - 02:35 PM, said:

I think there is a misconception of underpowered vs underplayed in this poll.

I don't often see mediums on the field, but when I do, they are being played well, by people who know how to play them, and doing more than their share of contribution.

The problem is medium mechs don't have a well defined roll in mechwarrior online, I think. People have a hard time going in a hunchback when they can go in a heavy mech with more armor and more weapons, and the speed difference doesn't bother them (and really isn't notable).
I think a lot of good people make use of medium mechs by exploiting positioning to the best of their ability, but I think it's a direct downgrade for someone of average skill and rather difficult to work with for someone new.
I think it's also a better mech class for 8 mans then pugging.

[Alistair Winter]

I'm not sure why people feel that the medium mech is underpowered, while the light mech is not.

In a fight between a light and medium mech, all things being equal, the medium mech will win. It just depends on whether the medium mech has the right weapons for the job. Whether you're using an AC20 or boating lasers, it shouldn't be hard to take away the legs of a light mech.

But to answer the OP: no, they are not balanced. That's why very few players use light and medium mechs in assault. In Conquest, you will see more light and medium mechs, but they're generally geared to cap (e.g. Cicada with XL320 engine)

[Roadbeer]

Alistair Winter, on 27 April 2013 - 02:42 PM, said:

But to answer the OP: no, they are not balanced. That's why very few players use light and medium mechs in assault. In Conquest, you will see more light and medium mechs, but they're generally geared to cap (e.g. Cicada with XL320 engine)

So, you're saying in a game mode that's designed to bring the most firepower to bear favors one type of weight class and the other mode that requires speed and firepower combined to achieve the goals favors a different set of weight classes.

Sounds like Role Warfare and situational balance to me.

[Aedensin]

Alistair Winter, on 27 April 2013 - 02:42 PM, said:

But to answer the OP: no, they are not balanced. That's why very few players use light and medium mechs in assault. In Conquest, you will see more light and medium mechs, but they're generally geared to cap (e.g. Cicada with XL320 engine)

Nearly every Assault match I've been in has had at least 3 lights on one team, though I don't play base rush mode very often.

Edited by Aedensin, 27 April 2013 - 02:53 PM.

[DeadlyNerd]

The medium mechs will be "underpowered" as long as their roles can be outmatched by heavier mechs.
This will persist as long as hard points allow for construction of hard hitting pin point alphas. Who wants to pilot a medium mech when he can get torn to shreds by 2 well placed alphas from a heavier mech.

You want to encourage balance? Encourage hard point sizes which will allow for mech roles which were intended by BT.

[Roadbeer]

DeadlyNerd, on 27 April 2013 - 02:57 PM, said:

The medium mechs will be "underpowered" as long as their roles can be outmatched by heavier mechs.
This will persist as long as hard points allow for construction of hard hitting pin point alphas. Who wants to pilot a medium mech when he can get torn to shreds by 2 well placed alphas from a heavier mech.

You want to encourage balance? Encourage hard point sizes which will allow for mech roles which were intended by BT.

You're saying that a Hunchback can't out-firepower a K2?

[Alistair Winter]

Aedensin, on 27 April 2013 - 02:52 PM, said:

Nearly every Assault match I've been in has had at least 3 lights on one team, though I don't play base rush mode very often.

Then we have wildly different experiences. Play 10 assault matches in a row, and tell me if there's 3 lights on average.

Roadbeer, on 27 April 2013 - 02:46 PM, said:

So, you're saying in a game mode that's designed to bring the most firepower to bear favors one type of weight class and the other mode that requires speed and firepower combined to achieve the goals favors a different set of weight classes.
Sounds like Role Warfare and situational balance to me.

To me it sounds like role warfare has not been implemented properly, because light mechs are supposed to do more than run around and secure unprotected bases. They're supposed to be scouts and actually improve the effectiveness of the main force by spotting enemies, providing targeting information, etc.

And if the mech choices reflect role warfare, I guess this means that medium mechs have no useful role in the game.

[Roadbeer]

Well, we agree that role warfare hasn't been really implemented yet, just like Information Warfare hasn't, they're pretty much hand in hand, but I see plenty of mediums in Conquest mode, very few in Assault. Seems about right to me.

[blinkin]

Alistair Winter, on 27 April 2013 - 03:05 PM, said:

Then we have wildly different experiences. Play 10 assault matches in a row, and tell me if there's 3 lights on average.



To me it sounds like role warfare has not been implemented properly, because light mechs are supposed to do more than run around and secure unprotected bases. They're supposed to be scouts and actually improve the effectiveness of the main force by spotting enemies, providing targeting information, etc.

And if the mech choices reflect role warfare, I guess this means that medium mechs have no useful role in the game.

if you are playing with a group light mechs are very useful and often used for scouting. medium mechs are filler, they are capable of doing anything that might be needed, just not as well as the specialized mechs. and everybody already knows that heavy and assault mechs are the battering rams. light and medium mechs specialize in tactical warfare, assaults and heavies are simple brute force.

[Keifomofutu]

blinkin, on 27 April 2013 - 03:11 PM, said:

if you are playing with a group light mechs are very useful and often used for scouting. medium mechs are filler, they are capable of doing anything that might be needed, just not as well as the specialized mechs. and everybody already knows that heavy and assault mechs are the battering rams. light and medium mechs specialize in tactical warfare, assaults and heavies are simple brute force.

Fast XL Heavy's serve as far better support than any medium could do. Because turn speed is directly tied to engine speed mediums do not have an inherent maneuverability advantage over a fast heavy of the same speed.

[Roadbeer]

Keifomofutu, on 27 April 2013 - 03:34 PM, said:

Fast XL Heavy's serve as far better support than any medium could do. Because turn speed is directly tied to engine speed mediums do not have an inherent maneuverability advantage over a fast heavy of the same speed.

Fast XL heavies die faster than slower standard heavies.

[Keifomofutu]

Roadbeer, on 27 April 2013 - 03:36 PM, said:

Fast XL heavies die faster than slower standard heavies.

Why not take an assault rather than take a slow heavy with a standard engine?

This is the same reason boomjagers have mostly replaced boomcats.

[Coralld]

I don't think the Mediums are underpowered, not really, untill you face off against a team that is made up of mostly Heavies and Assaults, which is why they are underplayed. Lets face facts, back when R&R (Re-arm & Repair) was still around, Mediums were popular because of the fact that they were cost effective. They could be made into slower heavy scout mechs or could play a lighter heavy while packing a big punch while being relatively cheap to maintain. Most teams were made up of Mediums, Lights, some heavies and an Assault here and there, which is what made the Mediums so appealing. But sense R&R is gone because PGI was having difficulty of finding a good balance of R&R costs, and because people were complaining that they had to pay C-Bills to R&R at all which started the Mediums to be underplayed.

So PGI should bring back a reworked R&R or implement a drop weight limit. I know there is some stigma on the drop weight limit, so here is my idea on how to make it work with out or with little problems at all. It would mean to rework the lobby mechanic, where people can still create their premade lances if they so choose and then connect to another lobby where other Premades and Puggers are also trying to find a group. Once they get all eight team members, they then can figure out on how to best set up their lances around the weight limit. Once they are all set every one readies up and then launch to find an enemy team to play against. Once the battle is over every one on the team stays together and are put back into the lobby where they all first met from the start. There they can switch up mech rolls or stay in what they were, talk to each other, via TS3 or by typing in the chat channel on what ever. Then they ready up again and launch to the next battle.
Or, instead of people ready up, have it so that once the weight limit is met, it begins a 10sec count down.

Edited by Coralld, 27 April 2013 - 05:00 PM.

[Tennex]

Coralld, on 27 April 2013 - 04:41 PM, said:

I don't think the Mediums are underpowered, not really, untill you face off against a team that is made up of mostly Heavies and Assaults, which is why they are underplayed. Lets face facts, back when R&R (Re-arm & Repair) was still around, Mediums were popular because of the fact that they were cost effective.

i don't remember them ever being popular when R&R was in game. They were popular before engine restrictions were put in. but that was before R&R. used to see all these 9 small laser hunchies running around