649 replies to this topic

[Linkin]

To me, I voted for the first option. Someone else (sorry forgot who/what thread) compared the Clans to the 300 Spartans, and I agree. The Clans in general stand for making Warfare an honorable endeavor. Combatants only etc... however, that doesn't mean even Clanners can bend the rules...

[Riyal Galen]

UncleKulikov, on 13 November 2011 - 04:01 PM, said:

In MWO, the Clans will provide a parallel set of technology and increase the dynamism of the game.

At least so we hope in theory. We now have to see how the reality of that plays out...You know, just like Kerensky's Dream when he left on the "Great Exodus" compared to the 17 surviving spiritual legacies (of the original 20), aka Clans at the time of their INVASION of the IS.

Gawain Emrys, on 13 November 2011 - 03:10 PM, said:

Are the Clans a meritocracy?

"...Nicholas hated the corruption and favoritism endemic to feudalism. He wanted a society based on merit and ability rather than parentage. It is ironic that his descendents reversed his intentions, espousing the superiority of select bloodlines."

- Page 9, "The Clans, Warriors Of kerensky", FASA, 1999(?)

'Nuff said.

And hence the great stumbling block to the supposed greatness that is the Clans. Clan Wolverine (yeah, I said it, deal with it, they were best and got pummelled by all 19 of the other jealous sandbox kiddies for it) tried to follow that, they got smacked down. Clan Widowmaker (only other clan worth joining) tried the other end of the spectrum, they likewise got smacked down for being too good at what it was to be Clan, or maybe because they were just too good at being Clan just a bit too early for the Grand Council's tastes.

It has been said that the Clans do have options for moving around the castes systems of the Clans if one has the ability and the needed skills, however, it seems that that ability is more true when not involving the Warrior Caste. After all, even True-bloods can test out of the Warrior Caste during Sibko training, provided that they survive their tests, and are often re-assigned to the Technician or Scientist castes. However, except by those filthy free-birth practices known as coupling (complete with fluid transfer, rolling the DNA dice, and chromosome hi-jinx), what other chances for "Legacies" and carrying on "Bloodlines" are there, than except with the True-trash or the extremely rare, and semi-MarySue character concepts ala Diana Pryde (who, while freeborn, it was argued and she was still stigma-ed harshly for it, was still the product of two Trueborns, including the CJF HERO Aiden Pryde.), for anyone in the Clans to earn a true Blood-name. Call-names amongst Freeborn PBC and Second-line warriors and "honor-names" among Scientists and Techs just don't cut it. much less aren't even recognized outside of the niche one got them in.

I would much rather scramble and climb up any IC Hierarchy. Even though I may not become the absolute top dog unless for some reason I am a member of a ruling family (Kurita, Liao, Steiner-Davion) or get really lucky to get elected in (Rasalhague XD), I still am able to go as high as my own skills and merits allow me, as well as fate wills me, be it a Merc unit, a House detachment (except maybe with the Marik and Steiner), or better yet, a ComGuard or CapCon Warrior House. There, merit is the real deciding factor, not just a billy-club used to smash down detractors.

[Jaroth Corbett]

So what??????? What is the problem regarding a meritocracy? I believe in it. A person has to earn their position. They cannot get it through bribery (whether monetary or sexual), or intimidation. As trueborn as Joanna was, as much as she believed in the Clans & in Jade Falcon & even as skilled as she was, she never won a Bloodname because better competitors bested her. Being bred into a sibko means you are in line to get a Bloodname but not entitled to one. Joanna's legacy lives on in the Remembrance for her deeds on Twycross, in particular slaying the Black Widow, Natasha Kerensky but even that still does not negate the fact that she competed for a Bloodname & lost.

[Jennifer Tarakovsky]

Jaroth there is no problem with a meritocracy, what people are trying to tell you is that the Clans AREN'T one; they are at least as bound to bloodlines and inherent perceived superiority as the Inner Sphere, if not more so. Everything weights in favour of Trueborn, even if a Freeborn makes it into the warrior caste they don't get the same training, equipment or opportunities as a Trueborn.

That's not a meritocracy, it's an uneven playing field.

[Stormwolf]

Jennifer Tarakovsky, on 16 November 2011 - 12:48 PM, said:

Jaroth there is no problem with a meritocracy, what people are trying to tell you is that the Clans AREN'T one; they are at least as bound to bloodlines and inherent perceived superiority as the Inner Sphere, if not more so. Everything weights in favour of Trueborn, even if a Freeborn makes it into the warrior caste they don't get the same training, equipment or opportunities as a Trueborn.

That's not a meritocracy, it's an uneven playing field.

That doesn't apply to all Clans, Clan Star Adder for instance has no beef with freeborns. Clan Wolf (Warden) is also rather liberal, this reached its zenith when Phelan Kell became saKhan and later Khan.

A number of Clans are a meritocracy, others like the Smoke Jaguars are not.

[Armored Yokai]

Well if they are going to invade mechwarrior online like 3050 will it be so suddenly?

[Stormwolf]

Cementblade, on 16 November 2011 - 01:43 PM, said:

Well if they are going to invade mechwarrior online like 3050 will it be so suddenly?

What do you mean? We already have all the invasion dates of the worlds the Clans hit.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Jennifer Tarakovsky, on 16 November 2011 - 12:48 PM, said:

Jaroth there is no problem with a meritocracy, what people are trying to tell you is that the Clans AREN'T one; they are at least as bound to bloodlines and inherent perceived superiority as the Inner Sphere, if not more so. Everything weights in favour of Trueborn, even if a Freeborn makes it into the warrior caste they don't get the same training, equipment or opportunities as a Trueborn.

That's not a meritocracy, it's an uneven playing field.

Uh it is. I just pointed that out. Theodore Kurita was destined for a different life to all other Draconis Combine citizens by being born as the son of the Dragon. So was Victor Steiner-Davion. Their lives were already decided by who their parents were. It does not matter how prestigious a Bloodline is. The individual makes his own destiny & is either honored or disgraced by his/her own actions.

Let us look at both ends of the spectrum.

Adler Malthus was a damn good mechwarrior in charge of a damn good unit. He came from a proud bloodline. His start was either average or good. Anyway he fought his way up to Star Colonel, he obviously won a Bloodname & was placed in charge of The Falcon Guards. (they were elite) But how did it end? His deeds defined him. His ego caused him, his unit, the Jade Falcons & the Clans as a whole, an extremely embarrassing defeat.

Quote

The battle's aftermath devastated Clan Jade Falcon even further. When one Bloodright of a given Bloodname is disgraced, other Bloodrights of the same Bloodname usually suffer no repurcussions. In this case, however, the shame of the defeat on Twycross affected the entire Malthus Bloodname. The lost honor did not significantly affect the codexes of the other Bloodnamed warriors, but rivals of the Malthus Bloodname created such a severe political backlash in the Clan council that Khan Timur Malthus was forced to resign. The same political maneuvering sent most of the Malthus Bloodnamed warriors back to Clan space with strict orders to avoid causing any further disgrace to their Clan.

Jade Falcon Sourcebook (Pages 28&29)

Cadet Aidan had high hopes. From a great blending of Mattlov-Pryde , he should have been something special. He showed much promise. He went into his Trial of Position with visions of glory. His dreams were shattered. He failed his Trial & was relegated to the Technician caste. He accepted the help of his Training Commander to get a second (illegal) Trial by assuming the identity of a freeborn warrior, who the Training Commander killed in order for that to happen. How did it end? His deeds defined him. When Clan Wolf attacked Glory Station for the spawn of Kael Pershaw, it was his plan, that he not only conceived but acted on, that won the day.

Going for the Pryde Bloodname, he exposed the crime committed to get him where he was , thus earning the ire of almost the ENTIRE Jade Falcon Clan.

Quote

At each ceremony preceding the succeeding contests in the Trial of Bloodright, Aidan could not mistake the hostility of the warriors competing against him. None spoke to him, though some muttered or growled insults under their breath. There was one muscular warrior who looked too big to fit into a normal 'Mech cockpit. His name was Megasa, and he was a Star Commander. The only time he spoke to Aidan, he said, "I hope to draw you somewhere in the competition. If so, I will end your life so that you can no longer stain the glory of Clan Jade Falcon." He walked away without waiting for a response, his thick legs giving him a rather comical gait, as if he had to make a special effort to keep one thigh from scraping away layers of skin from the other.

Quote

At the odd look on her face, Aidan asked what was the matter.
Marthe did not answer immediately, as if trying to decide whether to reveal her thoughts. "An oath is being taken among all the competitors for the Bloodname," she said finally.
"I have heard of no such oath."
"That is because it concerns you. The oath condemns your participation in this Trial of Bloodright. Megasa is the one who started it. From what I have heard, the oath states that your opponents will try to kill you rather than just attempt to defeat you. Every competitor has taken the vow."

Quote

Watching the others, Aidan felt a thrill. Since his days in the sibko, he had dreamed of standing in just such a hall, awaiting the chance to win a Bloodname. He had never imagined it would happen like this, under such adverse circumstances, but how could he ever have foreseen that he would live posing as a freebirth, go through a Trial of Refusal to vindicate his trueborn status, and then enter the Bloodname contest with every one of his opponents having taken a secret vow to kill rather than merely defeat him? Even now, the other warriors in the Trial often glanced his way, their expressions ranging from distaste to disgust to utter gall.

Quote

Megasa turned to face the audience. "I realize that it is unorthodox for me to speak now of any matter except my choices as hunter," he boomed in a voice that easily reached the last row of the assembly, "but there is an issue of importance to this final Bloodname contest that must be emphasized. Important not only for myself, but for all Clan Jade Falcon. This warrior has dishonored us, and I will not permit him to further tarnish the glory of our Clan." The words drew a roar of approval from the crowd, while they made Aidan wonder if the Oathmaster could not simply scrap all the ritual and let him and Megasa slug it out here and now.

Bloodname (various pages)

After winning his Bloodname, he rose to Star Colonel & was given command of the worst unit in the Touman; the now disgraced Falcon Guards. On Tukayyid he proved himself. To write all the details of all the battles would take too long, however this is the conclusion.

Quote

In the welcoming rituals the Falcon Guards were again praised for their many acts of courage and honor at Robyn's Crossing, their near-victory at Olalla, and their dogged defense during the Prezno Plain retreat. Many warriors stood up and delivered heartfelt encomiums. If doubt remained in anyone's mind about the vindication of the Falcon Guards, it faded away during these speeches. Then Marthe Pryde stepped forward. "It is my honor to serve as Loremaster for House Pryde and I am especially honored to guide the officers of Clan Jade Falcon in the ritual we perform this day. Ferocious bravery is the hallmark of all Clan warriors, but at times there are those who transcend even that. These warriors deserve particular praise and a special place in the history of the Clan."

"Seyla," whispered several warriors seated among the tiers. Some others immediately echoed them, the word "Seyla" spoken slightly louder. Then it was the assembled multitude who joined in. "Seyla!" they shouted, the chorus of voices deep and strong.

"And finally," Loremaster Marthe Pryde was saying, "it was the leadership of Aidan Pryde that kept the retreating Jade Falcons from being destroyed by the enemy. He and his Falcon Guards courageously held the line against the Com Guards. Because Aidan Pryde and the Falcon Guards destroyed so many ComStar BattleMechs, Clan Jade Falcon did not lose the battle, but earned a draw. For that act alone, he deserves all the honors we can bestow upon him."
"Seyla," called out the assembled warriors.
"With the approval of Khan Chistu and by a unanimous vote of the Clan Jade Falcon Council, the giftake of Aidan Pryde will give life to the next generation of Jade Falcon warriors."
Diana was astonished at these words. Even the normally impassive face of Joanna showed a flicker of surprise. More often than not, the giftake, a gene sample taken from a dead warrior, would be stored for years before transfer to the active gene pool—if ever.

"Do you realize the honor?" Joanna whispered to Diana, leaning in toward her.
"I am not sure."
"The genes of Aidan Pryde will enter the active gene pool immediately, without the customary interval between acceptance of the genes and judgment that they may be used to form sibkos. Diana, it is among the highest honors."

"All hail the genetic legacy of Aidan Pryde," Marthe shouted.
"Seyla!" sang out the assembled warriors. "All hail his deeds in battle."
"Seyla!"
"All hail his life as a Jade Falcon warrior."
"Seyla!"

As Marthe continued to lead the ritual, Diana glanced at Joanna, wondering what she was thinking,
especially the part about Aidan's life as a noble Clan warrior. Was she thinking of the taint that had clung to him, now officially removed by this ceremony?

As the ritual ended, a hush fell over the assembled crowd, broken suddenly when a warrior several
rows behind Diana stood up abruptly.

"I am Star Colonel Caro Pryde of Trinary Bravo of the Twelfth Jade Falcon Cluster, and I herewith
nominate my finest warrior, MechWarrior Isak, to compete in the Trial of Bloodright for the most
honorable Bloodname bequeathed to the Jade Falcons by the warrior Aidan Pryde."

Before Marthe could even respond, two other Jade Falcon warriors from House Pryde had stood up.

"I am Star Commander Darya Pryde of Trinary Charlie of the Second Jade Falcon Cluster, and I
herewith nominate the brave and distinguished MechWarrior Novalis to compete in the Trial of Bloodright
for the most honorable and eternally admirable Bloodname bequeathed to the Jade Falcons by the warrior
Aidan Pryde."

"I am Star Captain Mansoor Pryde of Trinary Echo of the Fifteenth Jade Falcon Cluster, and I herewith
nominate the gallant and superbly resourceful Star Commander Velyn to compete in the Trial of
Bloodright for the most deserving and honored Bloodname bequeathed to the Jade Falcon lineage by the
warrior Aidan Pryde."

Falcon Guard (Pages 113-115)

Not only did his genes enter the active gene pool, he was also immortalized in the Remembrance:

Quote

Remember those events that brought us these fifteen years of shame.
But remember also those who fell to restore the glorious Star League.
Above all, remember the blood legacy of Aidan Pryde, child of Kerensky;
he made the final sacrifice so that his Clan could continue.
For eternity shall we praise him;
in fifteen years shall we avenge him.
- Passage 417, Verse 29, Lines 74-79 (Clan Jade Falcon)

The facts speak for themselves. The evidence is there. It is merit. Do you even want to try to reply to that?

Edited by Jaroth Winson, 17 November 2011 - 03:16 AM.

[Melissia]

They're kerensky's children, but dunno about "enlightenment".

[Kristof Bowen]

We are the Clans, the Inner Sphere shall embrace our enlightenment or be crushed for their closed mindedness.

[CozmikR5]

Clan... IS... the only thing that counts is a mech wreck in front of me

[Ryokens leap]

I thought the numerical superiority of The IS was a built in offset to Clan tech. Have a ratio in place and if you are want to run Clan and you have to wait for a slot to open. As the game and IS pilots grow in numbers so will Clan opportunities.

[DocBach]

When I was a kid that didn't recognize game crippling imbalances I thought the Clans were the coolest thing ever.

[Aaron DeChavilier]

Jaroth Winson, on 16 November 2011 - 05:50 PM, said:

good stuff, I like it

...but....ask yourself honestly; how many freeborns get this chance? none in fact Ter Roshak had no problem killing a platoon of
freeborn warriors to cover Aidens transfer that speaks volumes on their opinion of freeborns.
and again, you are not looking at the society as a whole.

now here's a nice example that would never fly in Clan Society:
Snord's Irregulars ; a band of misfit freebirths that ultimately do well
enough as a merc unit to win a whole planet (Graham V)

check your clan histories for that kind of pedigree

Edited by Aaron DeChavilier, 16 November 2011 - 08:00 PM.

[Glare]

Diana Pryde, Horse, Phelan Kell.

Three examples that took thirty seconds of thinking between them. Two of them even got Bloodnames, despite being Freeborn.

[Aaron DeChavilier]

Glare, on 16 November 2011 - 08:37 PM, said:

Diana Pryde, Horse, Phelan Kell.

Three examples that took thirty seconds of thinking between them. Two of them even got Bloodnames, despite being Freeborn.

give me more that are not either from that book series or of all people Phelan Kell; also you havent responded to the Snord situation..
or any of my other meritocracy posts about clans for that matter...

your examples are not indicative of the freeborn experience in clans, merely outstanding singular characters written as such

also diana was hardly freeborn, her parents were both trueborns...

from sarna
"Freeborn Clansman can generally never earn a Bloodname (some few exceptions)"

the exceptions? Phelan Kell and Diana

Edited by Aaron DeChavilier, 16 November 2011 - 08:47 PM.

[Mad Pig]

Why isn't 'A bunch of inbred wannabes' on the list?

[Jack Gallows]

Glare, on 16 November 2011 - 08:37 PM, said:

Diana Pryde, Horse, Phelan Kell.

Three examples that took thirty seconds of thinking between them. Two of them even got Bloodnames, despite being Freeborn.

Phelan had a bloodline to fall back on, since he was descended from Ward.

Diana was the freeborn daughter of Aiden Pryde, someone they had just put into the remembrance for saving Jade Falcon at one of the biggest losses the Clans ever faced. She had two trueborn parents.


They both also met with massive resistance, and are, like Horse, scant exceptions and not the norm.

[Gawain Emrys]

Let's forget about Freeborn and Trueborn for a moment. Explain to me how a Labour caste can ever become ilKhan, I must have missed that part of the Clan "Meritocracy".

[Gawain Emrys]

Jaroth Winson, on 16 November 2011 - 05:50 PM, said:

The facts speak for themselves. The evidence is there. It is merit. Do you even want to try to reply to that?

I'll reply to it: None of that has any value in a discussion of Meritocracy. It is not about the society, but about the exceptions that are sometimes allowed by that society.