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The Gameplay Balance Problems Leading To The Peek-And-Shoot Meta


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#1 Peter2000

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 10:31 AM

Preface

I have circulated this document among a number of competitive players, and made edits based on their input, and the final product was generally well received. I hope the forums will receive it well, and that PGI will take the analysis and suggestions here seriously.

Introduction

There is currently a growing consensus among many of the more competitively-minded players that the game is rapidly becoming one dimensional. Not only in competitive 8-mans, but in higher-ELO PUG matches, the game tends to devolve into a sniping match. Due to low heat and high projectile speeds of PPC-type weapons, it is very easy to hit any ‘Mechs which expose themselves for any considerable period of time. In particular, it encourages “peek and shoot” snipers (usually Stalkers, due to their narrow profile with high-mounted energy hardpoints) who spend a minimal period exposed to potential counter-fire. Moreover, even when these snipers are closed in on, they are often able to out-brawl supposed brawlers - in large part due to the state of SRMs (normally a crucial part of the brawler’s arsenal - now obsolete), and the relative heat efficiency of PPCs and the ERPPC+Gauss combo.

Brawling vs. Sniping: Ballistics

Really, there is only one in each category worth mentioning: the AC/20 for brawling and the Gauss rifle for sniping.

There are some real trade-offs here. The gauss weighs an extra ton, and will explode (though its ammo will not). It also does 5 less damage. On the other hand, it gains extreme range, increased projectile speed, and very low heat.

Ultimately, the extra fragility the Gauss provides, along with the fact that the AC/20 still packs a hard and heat-efficient punch make the trade-off here an interesting one. These two super-heavy ballistic weapons are close to balanced in their different roles - one of the few examples of this.

Ballistic Supplementary

You can "snipe" with AC/2s, their range is long enough. However, they will spread their damage at range, and don't work well in the peek-and-shoot strategy currently prevalent. A gauss will destroy them every time if well played. Likewise, the UAC/5 is a potent weapon, but its fast refire-rate precludes defensive torso-twisting, and therefore really falls more into a fire-support role (where AC/2 and AC/5 also live). The AC/10 tends to be outclassed by the AC/20 or the gauss rifle, depending on the intended use, while the LBX/10 suffers from spread preventing panel-focusing. Machine guns are getting better, but still remain relatively weak. Damage is very low, and "criticals" after armor is stripped are unimportant when it's still so much easier to just knock out the entire section with a "real" weapon.

Brawling vs. Sniping: Energy

ERPPCs and PPCs represent the energy weapons used for sniping. For brawling, the favored weapons are medium and large lasers (and in the past, large pulse). The difficulty, of course, is that heat efficiency is actually not in the favor of brawling weapons. Medium lasers provide a significant tonnage savings compared to the sniper weapons. However, they have the same heat efficiency (i.e. staying power) in a brawl. Moreover, the tonnage savings cannot be used to improve this - since heat sinks are mostly maxed out on snipers anyway, nor can additional firepower be acquired, due to hardpoint number limitations. Large lasers are taken on brawlers primarily to offset hardpoint caps (if you don’t want to take SRMs, and have only 1 ballistic slot, then you need to put on lots of energy to still have firepower). They too have comparable heat efficiency to the PPC (somewhat ahead of the ERPPC) - but suffer from having a one second beam duration, during which the torso must remain still and on target - enough for a skilled opponent to easily line up a shot, while the PPC user is able to shoot and immediately defensively twist.

The PPC is a better brawling weapon than the supposed brawling energy alternatives. Before HSR was implemented for PPC/ballistics, PPCs received some (needed) buffs to their heat and travel speed. The weapon was relatively balanced - even on the strong end. However, once HSR improved their ability to hit targets, those buffs became excessive and these weapons came to dominate gameplay. It may make sense to increase heat and/or decrease projectile speed again.

Energy Supplemental

ERLL seem superficially to fill a similar role to the ERPPC. However, at ranges where they have an advantage over the standard large laser, it is very difficult to keep the beam from spreading damage on a moving target. It is also roughly as hot as the ERPPC. Small lasers and small pulse lasers can have a role on very fast ‘Mechs. However, their 90m range is too close for effective brawling focus fire. Large Pulse and Medium Pulse have shorter ranges and weigh more than their standard variants. More importantly, they generate even more heat per point of damage dealt. This is widely considered to more than offset the slightly shorter beam duration.

Brawling vs. Sniping: Missile

None of the missile weapons really fall into either category effectively at the moment. For the same reason AC/2 is not a sniper weapon, but a fire support, the LRM is also relegated to the fire support role. SSRMs are useful, but the very low total damage (3/hardpoint) means they are really only useful against smaller, harder-to-hit ‘Mechs.

SRM Balance

SRMs have been the quintessential brawler weapon in MWO in months past. In fact, throughout Battletech lore, nearly every ‘Mech that aspired to brawl carried at least one launcher. In the past, SRMs were overpowered. At one time, they did 2.5 damage per missile, and splashed full damage to many components. Moreover, the old trajectory meant that if you "face hugged" an enemy (collided with, and stayed within ~10m), your missiles would all hit in a pinpoint manner. The new trajectory prevents this, and encourages use throughout the effective range - a welcome change.

However, SRMs are currently gimped. Compare, for example, ASRM6 to a large laser. With one ton of ammo, weight is equivalent, and 2 extra crits (and explosive potential on one of them!) are paid. You also do the same damage with both systems. The large laser generates slightly more heat, but the SRM spreads the damage, has a very slow projectile, a limited number of shots, and has a hard-capped 270m max range. The quintessential brawling weapon is out-classed in a brawl by the medium-range weapon. This is not to point out that the Large Laser is overpowered. In fact, it is one of the most balanced weapons in the game. SRMs are inefficient right now, and need a buff. The flight path, spread, and range all make the weapon unique, so the obvious thing to buff would be the damage. 2.0 damage would be a good start. More numbers can be tweaked in the future.

Why the "boating penalty" currently proposed will not fix PPCs or the "peek-and-shoot" meta

One of the most popular builds at the moment is the Stalker with 4 PPCs (often ER, but sometimes a mix of standards or even all PPC). They “ridge hump” to expose themselves to minimal return fire - cresting just the head and arms for a second, shooting, and dropping back down. The game often boils down into two broad stages - first is the sniping phase. Here, the team crests, fires, and drops down to cool off and take cover. Heat is of minimal concern, since you should be safe from any return fire until you decide to crest again - so a 10 heat penalty can be shrugged off if needed. The second phase is encountered when one side tries to push up on the other. For lack of a better word, it is the brawl, when cover is, to a large extent, negated. Here DPS comes into play significantly more - making the penalty meaningful. However, PPCs and ERPPCs generate heat very quickly - even just firing 3 at a time at cool down will quickly bring you to max heat capacity. The extra little bit of alpha would be nice, but is ultimately superfluous during the brawl. Moreover, many other highly effective builds feature Gauss with 2 or 3 ERPPCs - which would not at all be impacted by this change.

Nerfing the interesting (and in no way OP) HBK-4P to the ground would be in vain.

Conclusion

The “peek and shoot” meta, which saw its first iteration with quick shots from minimally exposed jump-snipers has remained completely dominant in high level play despite changes to the dreaded jump sniper. With the changes to jump jets, jump snipers must now expose themselves to significant counter-fire in order to line up a good shot (though it would be nice to remove some of the more nauseating effect - as well as make jump jets useful again in light-on-light combat). However, ‘Mechs such as the PPC-boat Stalker, which could already compete with jump snipers at their best, were unaffected by this change. Naturally, they have become dominant.

Two problems present themselves, leading to the current one dimensional state of the game, where there are 3 weapons (PPC, ERPPC, Gauss), and one strategy (peek and shoot). First is the efficiency of the PPC/ERPPC relative to other weapons. It is both too easy to hit enemies at 1000m+ range and keep up a barrage if and when they close. Both heat and projectile speed (if PPC projectile speed is lowered significantly, Gauss should slow slightly, to preserve the different behaviors between the two weapons) should be looked at for nerfs. It is impossible to know what the right number is without testing, but it certainly does not seem that the current values are comparable to the other energy weapons.

Second (and most important) is the state of SRMs. In the past, a good sniping team still had to fear an aggressive and clever brawling opponent. While running across the open was dangerous, if a team could close under cover to 270m and only take a hit or two on the way there, they could expect their weapons would out damage the enemy’s. However, only the AC/20 is even close to that mark currently - and SRMs are desperately needed to fill that void of viable super-close-range weapon.

What’s more, the presence of effective SRMs also encouraged builds other than pure sniper or pure brawler. Hybrids, which carried both PPC/Gauss and SRMs for defence were very popular, as were fast flanking mediums which could afford SRM tonnage, but not AC/20 tonnage. Very strong PPCs have also contributed to the decline of use of the light and medium classes, since these sniping weapons are very heavy - precluding them from being boated on the lighter classes, and are so fast that hitting even a smaller, faster target at extreme range is not uncommon. Presumably a decrease in their effectiveness would help the light and medium classes.

Once the public test server becomes available, many competitive players would be absolutely delighted to help PGI test some of these changes and come up with solutions that work not only for high-level competitive players, but also more average players. Dialogue between the developers and some members of the competitive community could help the game reach a more dynamic state. Other games, including the wildly successful League of Legends, have followed such a model with great success. We want MWO to be as successful, but fear that it might falter if it does not get input from some of the players who spend the most time and effort studying the game in order to kill each other most effectively.

Edited by Peter2000, 28 June 2013 - 10:39 AM.


#2 JudgeDeathCZ

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 11:15 AM

+1 for you :huh: .
We(I played few 8-mans with NAIS) also encountered team based on 5 PPC/Gauss boats,1 scout and 2 LRM boats where those LRM boats were exploit that ppl do not carry so much ECM(no more 6xDDC+2x3L) bcuz of seismic wallhack.

#3 blueferral

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 11:38 AM

Well said! I agree, PGI this dude is smart. Listen to him.

#4 t9nv3

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 11:46 AM

I think the negative effect of this "peek and shoot" playstyle really needs to be emphasised at the lower end of the competitive spectrum as well. I usualy drop solo, and often encounter new players who can't really do much other than hide during the initial phase of the battle. This, of course, leads to all kinds of issues. Like teams bunching up and hiding while they get stomped, players charging the gunline out of frustration, and small groups splitting off to flank only to get murdered while the rest of the team remains in cover. Higher level play is incredibly important, but brawling needs to get a bit of love to make this game more intuitive for new players as well. It's kind of hard to explain, but it seems like new players are having a bit of trouble grasping the current meta. Seems to me like there are very few intuitive counters to the "peek and shoot" playstyle.

#5 Deathlike

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 11:49 AM

The Peek-A-Boo meta has been around forever... the idea of the basic shoot and get cover is common, even for FPSes.

With that said, it is impossible to remove it from play, but only to mitigate its primary usage with every heavy alpha possible..

#6 Discojaddi

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 11:51 AM

I agree wholeheartedly. The heat issue is not even a speedbump to the current "boat ppcs" meta. I just dropped in a game in caustic vallwy, where there were 4 ppc boated stalkers, a 2 ppc 1 gauss dragon, a 4 ppc 1 gauss atlas, and a 2 ppc FREAKING RAVEN. The only member of their team not using the allmighty ppc gauss combo was what looked to be a stock loadout catapult c1. And we got ROLLED. On caustic valley. They over-heated like mad, but it didn't matter when they could obliterate our atlases the moment they showed their heads.


I don't wish to remove peek-and-shoot as a strategy, but I do wish the ppc no be much less ubiquitous as a "must have" weapon for every single mech build.

Edited by Dragonfodder, 28 June 2013 - 11:58 AM.


#7 Peter2000

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 11:55 AM

View Postt9nv3, on 28 June 2013 - 11:46 AM, said:

I think the negative effect of this "peek and shoot" playstyle really needs to be emphasised at the lower end of the competitive spectrum as well. I usualy drop solo, and often encounter new players who can't really do much other than hide during the initial phase of the battle. This, of course, leads to all kinds of issues. Like teams bunching up and hiding while they get stomped, players charging the gunline out of frustration, and small groups splitting off to flank only to get murdered while the rest of the team remains in cover. Higher level play is incredibly important, but brawling needs to get a bit of love to make this game more intuitive for new players as well. It's kind of hard to explain, but it seems like new players are having a bit of trouble grasping the current meta. Seems to me like there are very few intuitive counters to the "peek and shoot" playstyle.


This is largely my point. Even at the higher levels, due to the way SRMs are too weak and PPCs are too strong, not even the competitive community has a good strategy for how a strong brawler team can beat a strong peek-and-shoot team. The problem is even bigger in PUGs inherently, since there is not the same ability to coordinate a push. Only once you get to low enough ELO, and the PPC boats miss most of their shots outside of brawling range is brawling once again balanced.

View PostDeathlike, on 28 June 2013 - 11:49 AM, said:

The Peek-A-Boo meta has been around forever... the idea of the basic shoot and get cover is common, even for FPSes.

With that said, it is impossible to remove it from play, but only to mitigate its primary usage with every heavy alpha possible..


Agreed, it will be around for some time, and will likely never fully go away. The problem is there are no tradeoffs to this playstyle at the moment. As I outline, you can peek-and-shoot with PPCs and then still turn around and out-brawl anyone who reached you.

It's not that I want nobody ever to peek-and-shoot. I just want it to be balanced with other playstyles.

Edited by Peter2000, 28 June 2013 - 11:56 AM.


#8 Tombstoner

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 12:04 PM

peak a boo is how this game is played. if your targeted you hide and hope your team mates are flanking or have good shots. you win when you trade off shots and the target takes more incoming fire then it can dish out.

The flat out truth is that MWO is a game of team work, angles and cover. you play well when you dont peek over the hill and wait till some one make a mistake or peeking or trying to move into position but really enters the field of fire of multiple opposition mechs.

Now can you tell me why LRMS do not rule the competitive matches. is it really that much ecm that a narc and tag combo can't work. I think it can its just the competitive crowd hasn't thought of it yet or is it because no one want to be the low scoring narc/tag user. one thing PGI wishes would happen is for people to realize you can dub fire lrms into ECM and cause damage.

The biggest issue with the game are the players right after convergence.

Edited by Tombstoner, 28 June 2013 - 12:06 PM.


#9 Shae Starfyre

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 12:10 PM

I read, and then re-read the the OP, and I must say, that it is very well written and insightful. I agree with it all; and most importantly, the OP is not suggesting that these changes are absolute, but that encouraging the change through testing and communication is key.

+1

#10 One Medic Army

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 12:25 PM

Seems a good summary to me.
+1

#11 ThePartyProbe

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 12:42 PM

View PostTombstoner, on 28 June 2013 - 12:04 PM, said:

peak a boo is how this game is played. if your targeted you hide and hope your team mates are flanking or have good shots. you win when you trade off shots and the target takes more incoming fire then it can dish out.

The flat out truth is that MWO is a game of team work, angles and cover. you play well when you dont peek over the hill and wait till some one make a mistake or peeking or trying to move into position but really enters the field of fire of multiple opposition mechs.

Now can you tell me why LRMS do not rule the competitive matches. is it really that much ecm that a narc and tag combo can't work. I think it can its just the competitive crowd hasn't thought of it yet or is it because no one want to be the low scoring narc/tag user. one thing PGI wishes would happen is for people to realize you can dub fire lrms into ECM and cause damage.

The biggest issue with the game are the players right after convergence.


LRM's are not viable for a few simple reasons, mostly relating to the current meta. With PPC snipers sticking close to hard cover and generally only peeking long enough to fire, you'll never find much of an opportunity to effectively use narc/tag without putting someone on your team in terrible danger. A scout that runs to tag/narc for you will die quickly as competitive players aren't likely to miss; especially considering the exposure times your scout or self-tagging lrm boat would have to subject themselves to for useful damage. LRM's in no way out trade coordinated PPC+Gauss fire, direct fire always wins in this; however, lrms can serve as a potentially useful tool in brawling compositions but it's still likely you'll be better off taking a long-range direct fire mech or something else that can brawl and effectively soak damage.

Edited by ThePartyProbe, 28 June 2013 - 12:51 PM.


#12 Raso

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 12:43 PM

I think one thing that needs to be done is that some how players need to be rewarded for loading up multiple weapon systems rather than additional heat sinks. Right now it "makes sense" to boat 4 ERPPC along side a ton of DHSs. You're rewarded for taking minimal weapons with a lot of heat sinks. You should, instead, be rewarded less for boating heatsinks and more for using multiple smaller to medium sized weapons along side a select choice of bigger guns. I think that one way this could be accomplished is to have heatsinks increase cooling rate but NOT add to the heat capacity. Naturally, there would need to be slighter alterations to the heat value of some weapons, but over all I think this would be a good step.

Another things is, of course, damage balance. Brawling weapons need to be brought back up to snuff. The LBX needs to be scary up close, pulse lasers need to be raging DPS machines and SRMs need to have a damage boost.

I, likewise, think that something needs to be done about the AC10. The AC20 deals more damage past AC10's optimal range than the AC10 does. That is not acceptable. Reduce the AC20's range, and buff the AC10's rate of fire to make it a more attractive weapon system. Make it shine at mid range combat but still pale in comparison to the Gauss's long range prowess (and maybe even give the Gauss a slight range boost to keep it the sniping king).

Another thing is that ERPPCs are too effective of a brawling weapon. I think that PPCs should have their rate of fire reduced slightly so that the DPS of a few medium lasers and and AC, or two, will out damage them up close (making sure that the PPCs retain the same heat per second they currently do). I think that to compensate for this their bullet velocity should get an increase so that they have increased accuracy at range. Up close they would be bust damage but they would need to be supplemented by other weapons.

Those are just some of my thoughts, however. I do not think there is only one solution to the problems that plague MWO at this time. I think that multiple solutions are both available and required and I do not think that any single one of them will come with out both foreseen and unforeseen consequences.

#13 C E Dwyer

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 01:10 PM

gets a plus 1 from me and then some

#14 lpmagic

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 01:32 PM

+1 from me.

This is a concise explanation of what is "happening in the game today" it is also how we will get the DEVs to pay attention. Considered, intelligent commentary, not inherrently nasty remarks and hate mail, just good honest feedback from elite level pilots. IMHO, they need to hear this. As you mentioned in your OP the DEVs are not elite pilots themselves, that is a fact. and one that hinders their perception of what is seen and done. It is hard to view how a mercedes drives when you have a volkswagon instead. I applaud the efforts to this point by the DEVs and hope they continue to grow with the meta, as that is how they will learn and eventually how we will end up with the game we crave. One way to do so is to listen to those whom the game is at least as much a part of their soul as the DEVs.
Cheers
Magic

#15 PEEFsmash

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 01:35 PM

Good post.

#16 Odins Fist

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 01:49 PM

Firing from cover, or partial cover is a staple of shooters, and standing in the open is bad, especially with LRMs raining down.
The sniper aspect of shooters follows the same basic approach.. The OP has made a very decent post, and for anyone with a long enough attention span, I would recommend you read it.

Brawler loadouts worked fine in closed and early open Beta before the LRM apocalypse, and SRMs hit pretty hard, I thought they could use a very slight tweak, but that's where they stayed for a while..

What I see are people being upset over is the fact they have a difficult time closing distance to brawl, but that is EXACTLY what stand off weapons are meant to do (wear down the enemy before they can close range).

With that said I still think that at least (3) different weapon systems need a little attention (fine tuning) so that the brawler will be able to be at least somewhat effective when he closes on his targets. What should be done is an ongoing debate i'm not getting into at the moment.

The terrain changes are going to be very interesting, I see them pushing MWO matches further into the stand off and fire mode on the bigger maps, but I also see a possibility to funnel, or force contact in certain areas of smaller maps creating murder holes.

Example: (River City) Going to upper city from dockside (water side start) there will be only (1) viable route to upper if I estimate the level of incline correctly. The broken overpass, the left path up seems too steep, and even if you can climb that your speed would be reduced to the point of creating a traffic jam, if the enemy team uses the long bridge from base to upper city you will have a turkey shoot, consisting of (2) possible murder holes, not to mention the streets between buildings in lower.. That example is of course using non jump jet mechs as a majority of the attacking force from lower city.. This would definately create an advantage for the enemy team starting on the high side of the map, and if the high side team uses this to their advantage it would also create an easy cap scenario for the team starting high side, all they have to do is wait for the lower city team to move across the water and try to attack from that direction (that already occurs presently). Also any kind of frontal attack down the middle would be suicide, at that point only one way into the enemy base would be possible (the curved ramp), and again anything without decent jump jets would have (1) way in to enemy base.

I see more forced contact at pinch-points, I see murder holes being a big thing, and I see (fish in a barrel) being quoted soon.
River City is only one example, a very easy example to explain..
Take note though, terrain that one team cannot climb means that the enemy team has the same disadvantage if they fall down, or get caught in a position with no way up and over, BUT the intial advantage will still be there for the high side enemy team.
This all examples of NON Jump Jet Mech issues.

I do not like forced contact, or funneling in certain instances.. I liked the open world of Crysis (the original), I disliked forced contact and funneling in Crysis 2, and I didn't bother with that title for long. MWO is not the same animal, and that isn't the best comparison, but if you know what i'm talking about, then you will understand.

With the current maps we have, I see "stand off" being the tactic of necessity, more so on some maps over others.
What impact 12 v 12 instead of 8 v 8 will have is unkown at this point..

Will terrain changes/mech mobility changes cause more varied strategies being used, or fewer.??
Yet unkown, I will be watching this carefully.

Edited by Odins Fist, 28 June 2013 - 01:54 PM.


#17 Vodrin Thales

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 01:52 PM

While there is a lot of truth in your post, simply reigning in PPC's and improving SRM's slightly would make the game feel far more balanced and would go a long way towards limiting the current snipe heavy tactics we see so prominently now.

#18 Peter2000

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 02:05 PM

View PostVodrin Thales, on 28 June 2013 - 01:52 PM, said:

While there is a lot of truth in your post, simply reigning in PPC's and improving SRM's slightly would make the game feel far more balanced and would go a long way towards limiting the current snipe heavy tactics we see so prominently now.


This is not a comprehensive list. I actually tried to be as brief as possible (hard to believe, I know!). I tried to focus on a narrow topic, which is the current meta: the reason it is in the current state, and the things that need to change to bring back dynamic play. There are several other topics I could delve into far more deeply in a separate post (LRMs would be a great example), but I feared it would derail the post.

For now, I absolutely agree - PPC nerfs and SRM buffs would improve gameplay dramatically (as I suggest in the conclusion). While other balance changes would be important down the line, these are top-priority.

Edited by Peter2000, 28 June 2013 - 02:07 PM.


#19 Aerik Lornes

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 02:08 PM

While I like (and liked) this post, I think that it is treating symptoms of a flawed heat and damage/convergence model.

#20 Jman5

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 03:47 PM

It will be interesting to see how much the cliff scaling fix improves the current game balance. At the very least it will act as a nerf to mechs with higher mounted weapon slots because they wont be able to hill hump as much. Instead, it will put them on a more even footing as they will be shooting from the sides more (Atlas RS here we come).

However, I have to say it is absolutely and utterly frustrating to play as a lone wolf brawler in the current environment. The biggest reason is simply the disparity in coordination required. If I'm a PPC stalker, I can passively follow the herd without communicating or coordinating. I'm safe in numbers and my long range ensures I can do my thing no matter where the herd takes me.

The brawler on the other hand can't just follow the pack and expect equal results. If his team doesn't push, he's stuck behind some piece of cover twiddling his thumbs. He can't easily act independently because his sniper enemy is bunched up. The only way he can take the fight to the enemy is by actively leading the team and having them follow through on any push.

Now I know someone out there might tell me: "Well just communicate with your team then!" And that's certainly true, it will increase my odds. But it's frankly a pain in the butt be a drop commander game after game. A lot of times I just want to be random lonewolf #7 doing his thing. What's more is that leading a group of PuGs is frought with uncertainty. You have no clue if they will even do as you ask. Hell, they might not even speak English. Meanwhile, the PPC stalker gets to just silently coast with his team and be quite effective.

If things weren't bad enough, we now have Seismic Sensor alerting every sniper when some short range mech is closing in behind them. I'm often forced into inaction because I can't even get into weapons range without showing up on everyone's radar.





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