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The Gameplay Balance Problems Leading To The Peek-And-Shoot Meta


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#41 WolvesX

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 06:34 AM

Great truth!

#42 Quintt

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 05:11 PM

Bump, for alchoolic purposes.

#43 Pht

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 05:32 PM

View PostPeter2000, on 28 June 2013 - 10:31 AM, said:

There is currently a growing consensus among many of the more competitively-minded players that the game is rapidly becoming one dimensional. Not only in competitive 8-mans, but in higher-ELO PUG matches, the game tends to devolve into a sniping match. Due to low heat and high projectile speeds of PPC-type weapons, it is very easy to hit any ‘Mechs which expose themselves for any considerable period of time. In particular, it encourages “peek and shoot” snipers (usually Stalkers, due to their narrow profile with high-mounted energy hardpoints) who spend a minimal period exposed to potential counter-fire. Moreover, even when these snipers are closed in on, they are often able to out-brawl supposed brawlers - in large part due to the state of SRMs (normally a crucial part of the brawler’s arsenal - now obsolete), and the relative heat efficiency of PPCs and the ERPPC+Gauss combo.


Or, in short: the game is starting to play more and more like MW4. This is no surprise; this has been predicted since the closed beta when the double-armor tweak came down the pipe.

You're basically pointing out the necessary consequences of NOT having the Battlemechs handle the weapons in any meaningful way.

Basically, all non-cluster or missle weapons of like velocity fired at the same time hit the exact same spot down range. Or, in short: in an MW video game, where the battlemechs are supposed to matter supremely - the battlemech's weapons handling ability is non-existant. The 'mechs simply don't matter - they don't handle their weapons like they do in the BTU setting.

Quote

Brawling vs. Sniping: Ballistics

Really, there is only one in each category worth mentioning: the AC/20 for brawling and the Gauss rifle for sniping.


A direct consequence of the doubled armor values and the weapons tweaking that this doubling required; basically screwing over smaller weapons.


Quote

Why the "boating penalty" currently proposed will not fix PPCs or the "peek-and-shoot" meta

One of the most popular builds at the moment is the Stalker with 4 PPCs (often ER, but sometimes a mix of standards or even all PPC). They “ridge hump” to expose themselves to minimal return fire - cresting just the head and arms for a second, shooting, and dropping back down. The game often boils down into two broad stages - first is the sniping phase. Here, the team crests, fires, and drops down to cool off and take cover. Heat is of minimal concern, since you should be safe from any return fire until you decide to crest again - so a 10 heat penalty can be shrugged off if needed. The second phase is encountered when one side tries to push up on the other. For lack of a better word, it is the brawl, when cover is, to a large extent, negated. Here DPS comes into play significantly more - making the penalty meaningful. However, PPCs and ERPPCs generate heat very quickly - even just firing 3 at a time at cool down will quickly bring you to max heat capacity. The extra little bit of alpha would be nice, but is ultimately superfluous during the brawl. Moreover, many other highly effective builds feature Gauss with 2 or 3 ERPPCs - which would not at all be impacted by this change.

Nerfing the interesting (and in no way OP) HBK-4P to the ground would be in vain.


Again, another necessary consequence of not having the 'mechs meaningful in weapons handling.

In MW4, the term was "hill humping" or "wall humping." This is nothing new.

You've done an excellent job pointing out the consequences of not having the Battlemechs in an MW video game matter in any way beyond visual outline, what they can mount, and their movement pofiles.

#44 XX Sulla XX

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 05:42 PM

I agree I hope they fix the current meta soon. Seems very clear SRMs are broken. I finally gave up and tool them all off my DDC.

#45 Grabbabrewski

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 05:48 PM

The next patch may help the climb and snipe a bit. It may result in a little more funneling effect on some maps. http://mwomercs.com/...ement-behavior/

#46 Quintt

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 05:49 PM

bump for recreational purposes.

#47 BlackIronTarkus

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 05:58 PM

I couldn't of never explained the problem better myself.

+1like lets hope PGI read it.

#48 Tombstoner

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 06:04 PM

The response to massed ppcs is team work and Massed LRM swarms. once you reduce the fun of the current meta it will change. The problem is people don't want to used tag let alone narc. so everyone want to be DPS and not tank or scout, sound like another popular game.

#49 Tombstoner

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 06:09 PM

View PostThePartyProbe, on 28 June 2013 - 12:42 PM, said:


LRM's are not viable for a few simple reasons, mostly relating to the current meta. With PPC snipers sticking close to hard cover and generally only peeking long enough to fire, you'll never find much of an opportunity to effectively use narc/tag without putting someone on your team in terrible danger. A scout that runs to tag/narc for you will die quickly as competitive players aren't likely to miss; especially considering the exposure times your scout or self-tagging lrm boat would have to subject themselves to for useful damage. LRM's in no way out trade coordinated PPC+Gauss fire, direct fire always wins in this; however, lrms can serve as a potentially useful tool in brawling compositions but it's still likely you'll be better off taking a long-range direct fire mech or something else that can brawl and effectively soak damage.

thus a rock paper scissors approach is not viable, resulting in the need for something to balance off the high alpha long range pin point damage meta.

#50 Peter2000

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 07:24 PM

View PostTombstoner, on 29 June 2013 - 06:04 PM, said:

The response to massed ppcs is team work and Massed LRM swarms. once you reduce the fun of the current meta it will change. The problem is people don't want to used tag let alone narc. so everyone want to be DPS and not tank or scout, sound like another popular game.


No, it isn't. Your analysis is wrong for several reasons. First, sniping counters LRMs. Just stay near cover, peek out, shoot, and be back behind it in time for the missiles to hit the wall. The sniper will take 0 damage, even if he is TAG-ged, NARCed, and being spotted, because cover hard-counters missiles.

Secondly, people are going to do whatever is most effective, because for many people, winning, or at least trying in a meaningful way to contribute to that goal is fun. Even if everyone switched to LRMs and TAG/NARC tomorrow, anyone who started running PPC boats would be at a huge advantage, and would win a lot.

Finally, people's tendency to drive the same sort of 'Mechs is the consequence of sniping being OP, not the reason sniping is OP. When sniping was not OP, you would see tons of hybrids, brawlers, and fast mediums, for example (as I pointed out in the original post).

Edited by Peter2000, 29 June 2013 - 07:25 PM.


#51 Frakk Zarah

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 01:30 AM

A very good analysis indeed pinpointing to the real balancing problems. Devs read it carefully please <_<

#52 trollocaustic

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 02:22 AM

Tell me, what's wrong with peakaboo?

NOTHING

#53 Peter2000

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 07:50 AM

This topic is also receiving significant attention on the mwo subreddit - hopefully this attracts developer attention to these important issues.

#54 Tarl Cabot

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 09:47 AM

View Posttrollocaustic, on 30 June 2013 - 02:22 AM, said:

Tell me, what's wrong with peakaboo?

NOTHING

Hai, there is nothing wrong with peekaboo, hide and seek, etc. If PGI did not want us to utilize the terrain as effective as possible they should have simply given us flat maps (returns to MPBT EGA/Solaris days). Just cause PGI wants to hump each other while brawling most of the time doesn't mean we all want to do it all the time :P

On flat maps, the weapon ranges, the extreme ranges may likely have to be curtailed but you would see more formations and maneuvers. All 5 Houses and mercs from Solaris would have lots of info about that.

:angry:

#55 Atma Erebus

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 12:15 PM

This needs to be pinned until PGI takes notice. There is no excuse for SRMs being outclassed at short range by PPCs, yet they are. In the unlikely event that an SRM brawler is able to close on a PPC boat without losing most of its armour, there's still a good chance that the sniper will core or leg the brawler before the he's able to destroy any components (though he'll do plenty of useless scatter damage). Consider this: SRMs have their hard-capped max range and guaranteed damage spread, yet 4 PPCs can still hit harder than an AC20 with pinpoint accuracy at anything but point blank range.

#56 One Medic Army

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 12:26 PM

View Posttrollocaustic, on 30 June 2013 - 02:22 AM, said:

Tell me, what's wrong with peakaboo?

NOTHING

Because it's boring, repetitive, and for the people who don't want to play that way losing half your CT armor within 1second of stepping out of cover just sucks.

Oh, and even if you somehow manage to get close currently the Gauss, PPC, and ERPPC still outclass many of the shorter range weapons when at short range.
Seriously, compare PPC to LPL and tell me it's not screwed up, or SRM6 to PPC.

Edited by One Medic Army, 30 June 2013 - 12:28 PM.


#57 Peter2000

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 12:28 PM

View PostOne Medic Army, on 30 June 2013 - 12:26 PM, said:

Because it's boring, repetitive, and for the people who don't want to play that way losing half your CT armor within 1second of stepping out of cover just sucks.


Right. I keep hearing that the meta will change because people won't want to play boring PPC-boats. I'll tell you what's less fun than murdering people in PPC-boats: taking anything short ranged, and getting murdered by PPC-boats at all ranges.

#58 One Medic Army

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 12:34 PM

View PostPeter2000, on 30 June 2013 - 12:28 PM, said:

Right. I keep hearing that the meta will change because people won't want to play boring PPC-boats. I'll tell you what's less fun than murdering people in PPC-boats: taking anything short ranged, and getting murdered by PPC-boats at all ranges.

You know, back when LRMs punished people for stepping out of cover, at least the damage was (at that time) spread out and with travel time and lock-on you had several seconds to reach the next piece of cover.
Right now you are punished as soon as you reveal yourself.

Being punished for standing in the open for 10seconds: fine.
Being punished for moving out from behind a rock for 1 second: not fine.

#59 Malora Sidewinder

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 02:16 PM

As much as I would love to say otherwise, I cannot say that I have any faith in PGI in the slightest bit to do
A. What the community wants. (This is voided in terms of the jumpsnipers nerf. The CORRECT option was to increase SRM damage to manageable levels and make cockpit shake much less dramatic than it is.)
B. The smartest thing to do
C. The thing that is best for the overall health of the game.

My challenge to anyone is point to a single thing PGI has done in the past 5 months that has accomplished goal A, B, or C.
A. Single. Thing.
If anyone can do it, I'll post a picture of me in a dress.

#60 Discojaddi

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 03:16 PM

View PostPhenakist, on 29 June 2013 - 03:06 AM, said:

Something you have to consider is the map layout. As it stands, ALL maps lead to sniper phases, due to the same spawning points for Team A and Team B being opposite, so of course you will always have a sniper phase if this is always the case, it just makes sense.

Make more intricute maps that negate snipers, and voila half your problem is evapourated due to a part of the map pool with no sniping capabilities. But yes I do still agree that even within brawling range, ER PCC's are a menace but it does greatly reduce the effectiveness of LRM/PPC's


It's funny actually, there is one map that negates sniping significantly, and everyone hates it save for me it seems like.

River City Night is the one place where brawlers are still kings.

With sight range being reduced to about 600m and cover GALORE, you can get right up into a ppc-stalkers face...
And, even then, you still have to hope that they aren't erppcs, cause those still do a ton of point-blank damage. But MOST cases you still win.

Edited by Dragonfodder, 30 June 2013 - 03:23 PM.






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