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Final See Why People Complain About Seismic Sensors


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#121 Dracol

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 03:06 PM

View Postjeffsw6, on 01 July 2013 - 02:47 PM, said:

Yes, yet another massive balance change that PGI did with zero thought to how that change integrates with their existing maps.

These maps, by the way, supposedly cost 250k each to make. So they don't think about the 1.5 million or so of money they spent on maps, when making changes to LRM flight-arc or adding in Seismic Sensor. No thought at all.

I would suspect the complete opposite was the case.

Seismic was propably in the pipeline a long time ago. Just like the movement changes that are incoming, the map designers probably had this mod in mind when designing most maps.

They were probably cringing everytime they read about how easy it was to have ddcs go cave and catch an entire team by surprise. The devs probably groaned every time they saw a gausscat walk around a rock 50 meters behind a player and core em out in one shot to the back.

The more MW:O progress away from "who has the biggest gun and best map knowledge" towards "who can work as a team the best and out think their opponent", the more enjoyment I get out of it.

#122 Rashhaverak

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 03:15 PM

Should only work when standing still, and it should work less well in picking up lights.

Thing is huge OP. I have one and I switch it from mech to mech. Not using it is like not using night vision on river city night.

#123 Xmith

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 03:22 PM

View PostDeathlike, on 30 June 2013 - 07:07 PM, said:


I've seen the blue and I think I've also seen green blip

Either way, it's "magic".

A blue and green blip means a teammate has disconnected.

#124 Koniving

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 03:27 PM

View PostViktor Drake, on 30 June 2013 - 09:45 AM, said:

So what do you all think. OPed or more realistic?


You are aware you can trick seismic sensors. Move slower. These numbers are just estimates based on a few minutes of testing with zhizhu members on opposite teams: 10 kph or less for assaults, 20 kph or less for heavies, 30 or less for mediums, 40 or less for lights. Remember these numbers are not exact, just approximations. Avoid any 'drops' in elevation as it screams to Seismic. Jumpjets can allow you to travel without setting off the alarm even at good speeds but remember your landing must be super soft. Testing though has shown that even with the softest landings assaults can't trick the Seismic with a JJ.

#125 hammerreborn

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 03:27 PM

View PostDracol, on 01 July 2013 - 03:06 PM, said:

I would suspect the complete opposite was the case.

Seismic was propably in the pipeline a long time ago. Just like the movement changes that are incoming, the map designers probably had this mod in mind when designing most maps.

They were probably cringing everytime they read about how easy it was to have ddcs go cave and catch an entire team by surprise. The devs probably groaned every time they saw a gausscat walk around a rock 50 meters behind a player and core em out in one shot to the back.


View PostDracol, on 01 July 2013 - 03:06 PM, said:

I would suspect the complete opposite was the case.

Seismic was propably in the pipeline a long time ago. Just like the movement changes that are incoming, the map designers probably had this mod in mind when designing most maps.

They were probably cringing everytime they read about how easy it was to have ddcs go cave and catch an entire team by surprise. The devs probably groaned every time they saw a gausscat walk around a rock 50 meters behind a player and core em out in one shot to the back.

The more MW:O progress away from "who has the biggest gun and best map knowledge" towards "who can work as a team the best and out think their opponent", the more enjoyment I get out of it.


See, I don't really have an issue with the seismic sensor itself, but it's range. At 200m, it's a reasonable item to equip. You can still pick up some people off the beaten path, but you have to really be paying attention. For instance, you would need to hug the cave openings or the walls to see someone inside in forest colony (and if you move towards the interior you wouldn't be picked up at all). Jenner highway would be completely available again for manuevering, while the cave would give an early warning indicator, but not 20s before teh enemy even makes their way all the way through it.


It gives support to mechs that are weak from behind, or can help in a close knit brawl, but isn't going to pick up a jenner or hunchback anymore before they can even bring their weapons to bear.

Edited by hammerreborn, 01 July 2013 - 03:28 PM.


#126 Jman5

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 03:39 PM

View PostDracol, on 01 July 2013 - 03:06 PM, said:

I would suspect the complete opposite was the case.

Seismic was propably in the pipeline a long time ago. Just like the movement changes that are incoming, the map designers probably had this mod in mind when designing most maps.

They were probably cringing everytime they read about how easy it was to have ddcs go cave and catch an entire team by surprise. The devs probably groaned every time they saw a gausscat walk around a rock 50 meters behind a player and core em out in one shot to the back.

The more MW:O progress away from "who has the biggest gun and best map knowledge" towards "who can work as a team the best and out think their opponent", the more enjoyment I get out of it.

I don't doubt that this has been in the pipeline for a long long time. However, I question that it's current balance actually promotes teamwork.

It promotes long range sniper, static play, and deathballing. At the same time it discourages scouting, flanking, brawlers, striker mechs, and independent lance movement.

So all those big bad PPC stalkers are having a blast with this module. They can tunnel vision on some point without a care in the world. If some hunchback or dragon comes his way, he'll have plenty of time to turn and alpha strike his face the second he turns the corner. And as long as he just follows the pack, his buddies will have the same information.

I'm starting to suspect that during the design of Canyon Network the testers were struggling to spot and stop enemy movement. So to compensate, the developers made Seismic extremely good. Hopefully, they knock it down a notch now that we've had a month to figure the map out and new movement restrictions are going in.

#127 Lyoto Machida

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 03:43 PM

View PostViktor Drake, on 30 June 2013 - 09:45 AM, said:

Well I finally get why many people think seismic sensors are a bit over the top.

I was on the Frozen City Map and half our team decided to sweep through ice caves to flank the enemy to the far left while the rest of our team when the traditional route over the downed dropship.

Well just as we were exiting the caves we walked into the "fishbowl". The entire enemy team was just sitting there lined up in a pretty line shoulder to shoulder and the slaughter begain. I was the first out and got time to fire one alpha that half missed before being disintegrated, the rest of my lance soon followed (total of about 30 seconds to take out 4 of us.)

Then they just turned around and all walked the other way to roll the rest of our team. Honestly I think the entire match lasted less than 3 mins.

Obviously someone picked us up on Seismic and with unusual coordination, the enemy managed to capitalize on it but for the first time I realized just how much tactical flexibility is lost because of the use of seismic sensors.

On the other hand, if someone in my lance had had seismic, we would have noticed the enemy waiting for us and not walked into that total and completely ambush so in some ways I guess it offers a more realistic battlefield with lots of unaccounted pitfalls for the unwary.

So what do you all think. OPed or more realistic?


1) I'm surprised there are people out there that DONT run seismic still...they still make em like you?

Sure, you dont need it but youre putting yourself at a huge disadvantage by not running it. I can't name any module that goes on my mech before seismic...its just that much of a priority.

2) If they were all waiting outside for you already and immobile, your seismic wouldnt have helped anyways (had any of the 4 mechs in your lance had one).

#128 Aim64C

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 04:10 PM

View PostLyoto Machida, on 01 July 2013 - 03:43 PM, said:



1) I'm surprised there are people out there that DONT run seismic still...they still make em like you?

Sure, you dont need it but youre putting yourself at a huge disadvantage by not running it. I can't name any module that goes on my mech before seismic...its just that much of a priority.


Should any module be so -crucial- to play on the whole?

The XP necessary to just unlock the thing requires a considerable amount of play. What does that say to new players?

They start in sub-par mechs that they have to grind for a few days simply to get to optimize on the hardware side. It's a daunting task... and made even more frustrating by this module that is almost necessary for any player to reach the peak of their competition.

Currently - a lot of the modules enhance certain types of gameplay. The target decay is helpful for those who have missiles (as well as the 360 degree target retention). Sensor range is handy for any mech - but not that essential, other than for scouts who want to spot for their team at range extremes.

This module should, actually, be a component as effective as it is. Replace the command console with it, or something.

I don't run seismic on my builds. I don't have the module unlocked - and it will, at my rate of play, take about another month before I can unlock it. Not that I would. I'm rather principled in that.

With as many people as are running the thing, I have to suspect that PGI is getting a much higher influx of cash for microtransactions than the forums would lead one to believe. That, or there are a lot of people out there who have obscene amounts of GXP laying around.

#129 ObsidianSpectre

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 04:14 PM

View PostAppogee, on 30 June 2013 - 10:20 AM, said:

Are there still people who don't have Seismic...?!

I have it, I benefit significantly from its use - and I wish it didn't exist.

As I've posted before, I think it is OP and unbalances the game, especially against Lights performing a Scouting role. I would nerf it by reducing its range and also making not work while the user is moving. That would be logical while also rebalancing the impact of the module a bit.

Agreed completely. I run it on every mech I have - it's too useful to not run - and I wish it didn't exist at all.

#130 Dracol

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 04:17 PM

View PostJman5, on 01 July 2013 - 03:39 PM, said:

I don't doubt that this has been in the pipeline for a long long time. However, I question that it's current balance actually promotes teamwork.

It promotes long range sniper, static play, and deathballing. At the same time it discourages scouting, flanking, brawlers, striker mechs, and independent lance movement.

So all those big bad PPC stalkers are having a blast with this module. They can tunnel vision on some point without a care in the world. If some hunchback or dragon comes his way, he'll have plenty of time to turn and alpha strike his face the second he turns the corner. And as long as he just follows the pack, his buddies will have the same information.

I'm starting to suspect that during the design of Canyon Network the testers were struggling to spot and stop enemy movement. So to compensate, the developers made Seismic extremely good. Hopefully, they knock it down a notch now that we've had a month to figure the map out and new movement restrictions are going in.


Respectfully disagree. Those tunnel vision stalkers, vulnerable to the ecm raven 90degrees off to the side spotting for lrm's.

Smart dragon and hunchback pilots will engage 400m out, and duck into cover before the stalker can even turn and face their attacker.

On canyon network, even with sesimic, unless one member of a group watches the oppositer flank, whole teams pass each other on the way to the opposing base.

Now, I won't dispute you on what it did to brawling, flanking, etc. but only in regards to how they were executed prior to seismic. If one wants to continue to utilize outdated tactics, then I can understand why one would feel seismic was Op.

In prior Mw games we had radar that saw through walls with the only counter being to lose all sensor data by running silent. In modern military settings, we have aerial surveillance and satalite imaging with real time capabilities. I feel seismic lends a unique twist to the situational awareness aspect of fictionalized military conflict.

#131 Homeless Bill

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 04:19 PM

The first time I looked down at my mini-map, turned around, nuked the guy sneaking up on me, and said, "Wow, I probably would have been ******," is the minute I realized how cheesy and terrible Seismic was.

I can't remember who made the joke, but someone aptly termed it Information Welfare.

The more I see it in use, the more I just don't think it should exist. No matter how they re-work it, it serves a cheap, ******** purpose that doesn't gel with the whole concept of tactics and information warfare. It's not like flanking people in an 80-ton robot is easy in the first place...

#132 FupDup

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 04:20 PM

View PostHomeless Bill, on 01 July 2013 - 04:19 PM, said:

I can't remember who made the joke, but someone aptly termed it Information Welfare.

It was me. ;)

#133 Lootee

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 04:23 PM

Seismic is what the Beagle Probe should have been and ECM to counter/diminish such a powerful ability would have made more sense.

Instead we have a convoluted non-canonical mess where ECM counters LRMs, TAG counters ecm except at <180m, PPCs counter ECM for 4sec, and BAP counters ECM (which should be the other way around).

I'd suggest making the seismic unlock part of a Beagle Probe pilot upgrade. Maybe give the basic Beagle Probe a weak seismic range like 90m, which you upgrade with the pilot skills. Change ECM to do the following: counter BAP, Narc, Artemis and increase missile lock-on times to 2x. Make Narc pods last much longer, 5 minutes at least to offset being disabled by ECM.

Lose all the other nonsense like the Klingon cloaking device, PPCs disabling ECM, BAP countering ECM, the ECM fixed hard point, ECM restricted to certain chassis, ECM turning off missiles, etc... If you want to sneak around completely unnoticed you must mount Stealth Armor/Nullsig or Chameleon Shield, not just ECM for 1.5 tons.

That seems more like information warfare and is more true to the TT rules and novels.

PGI did everything assbackwards: made BAP too weak, ECM really had nothing to counter because BAP sucked so they made up a bunch of new powers for it, made ECM too powerful so made up even more stuff on unrelated equipment to try to counter that, and then finally added the ability BAP should have started with, but without any tonnage or crit slot cost and no real counter. W-T-F over?

Edited by PanchoTortilla, 01 July 2013 - 05:50 PM.


#134 Glythe

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 05:49 PM

Seismic is fine because unlike ECM it's a module everyone can use.

It's also a quick fix for not being able to have rear cameras.

#135 Deathlike

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 05:54 PM

View PostDracol, on 01 July 2013 - 03:06 PM, said:

I would suspect the complete opposite was the case.

Seismic was propably in the pipeline a long time ago. Just like the movement changes that are incoming, the map designers probably had this mod in mind when designing most maps.


Seismic was certainly in the pipeline... if the HUD bug was not addressed, this module would not be as effective and as game changing...

Edited by Deathlike, 01 July 2013 - 05:55 PM.


#136 Aim64C

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 06:43 PM

View PostDracol, on 01 July 2013 - 04:17 PM, said:



Respectfully disagree. Those tunnel vision stalkers, vulnerable to the ecm raven 90degrees off to the side spotting for lrm's.

Smart dragon and hunchback pilots will engage 400m out, and duck into cover before the stalker can even turn and face their attacker.

On canyon network, even with sesimic, unless one member of a group watches the oppositer flank, whole teams pass each other on the way to the opposing base.

Now, I won't dispute you on what it did to brawling, flanking, etc. but only in regards to how they were executed prior to seismic. If one wants to continue to utilize outdated tactics, then I can understand why one would feel seismic was Op.

In prior Mw games we had radar that saw through walls with the only counter being to lose all sensor data by running silent. In modern military settings, we have aerial surveillance and satalite imaging with real time capabilities. I feel seismic lends a unique twist to the situational awareness aspect of fictionalized military conflict.


Not exactly. Nothing we have in the military works as flawlessly as seismic. We can do some cool things, no doubt - but radars all have their limitations. Optical surveillance systems are manpower intensive. And ground search radars are a completely different beast from air search radars. Ground clutter, echoes - all of it creates a very chaotic environment where there's always a degree of uncertainty.

It's why laser guidance is still the preferred method for precision delivery of munitions. It performs much better over the vast array of environments. Canyons can play hell with resolving a target and weapon guidance.

Submarines and Sonar is a dark art suspiciously similar to voodoo. The factors involved in Sonar run a list a few miles long. Your thermocline plays a huge role in it (and that varies by region), as does your ocean bottom (and nearby ocean bottoms). Localized thermal variations can create channels for sound.

Effective use of Sonar (particularly passive sonar) is very dependent upon crew training and overall experience. You can have them in a classroom with simulators all you want - that is only going to reduce the learning curve they'll encounter in the real world. Especially if they're going into a littoral region. Those are just nasty for Sonar.

I encourage you to try out some simulators - like "Dangerous Waters."

View PostHomeless Bill, on 01 July 2013 - 04:19 PM, said:

The first time I looked down at my mini-map, turned around, nuked the guy sneaking up on me, and said, &quot;Wow, I probably would have been ******,&quot; is the minute I realized how cheesy and terrible Seismic was.

I can't remember who made the joke, but someone aptly termed it Information Welfare.

The more I see it in use, the more I just don't think it should exist. No matter how they re-work it, it serves a cheap, ******** purpose that doesn't gel with the whole concept of tactics and information warfare. It's not like flanking people in an 80-ton robot is easy in the first place...


I question the practicality behind Seismic sensors in a battlemech, to begin with. I would argue that it should be a leg-mounted piece of equipment, and should only work when standing still... and have substantial variance in its effectiveness (not effective when standing in the middle of the bay, more effective when standing on solid rock, hazy and vague when standing in sandy terrain).

That said - there are better ways to go about information warfare in a game like MechWarrior:

http://mwomercs.com/...__fromsearch__1

Since radars and digital electronics is my field - I throw around some technical jargon and what-not, but try and translate some of the real-world aspects of information warfare into the world of MWO.

Seismic could fill a role in all of that - but it should be fundamentally limited. Information gathering should be a huge role of scouts and equipment like BAP and C3.

#137 pulupulu

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 08:21 PM

I am surprised some people still try to say it isn't that bad.

Let's put it this way.

Advance sesmic sensor is so good, that it make bad variant of medium mech able to compete against a good assault mech without sesmic.

Recently I have been doing pretty good with hunchback, and I know it wasn't because I got that much better; it was because I got advance sesmic sensor.

To be honest, I do like the meta where people are moving without seeing each other in order to get best position (both side with A.S.S.). It felt like a chess game. However, against people without it, it is too easy.

If they are going to keep it, they should make it available to everyone as easy as possible.

Edited by pulupulu, 01 July 2013 - 08:27 PM.


#138 Dracol

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 08:41 PM

Aim64c, I appreciated the info low down. Was an interesting read. As were your ideas on expanding electronic warfare in MWO.

Comparing RL equipment to MW:O, we can see PGI has taken a more advanced position. The uav drone is much more accurate then what is currently available. But, they stayed away from complete radar coverage found in previous MW titles as well as current fps games.

As much as I would love a complex system like you described in your thread, IMHO it is not a viable position for a game to take if they desire to draw in a large player base.

One thing your ideas are based around is the inclusion of a dedicated scout in a group. Unfortunitly there is only a small percent of the population that wants to sit on the sidelines, target for others, and watch the action unfold. For a dedicated group of 8 mans, this role could be filled, and most likely not reluctantly.

When it comes to general population though, IMHO it would be poor game design if a successful team required such a passive role to succeed. Personally I've achieved a 2 wins to 1 lose record in meds/lights or fast heavies simply by being the person that watches the flanks. It seems like 9 times out of 10 when I run a slow heavy or an assualt we lose simply because everyone stays in a blob with no scouting.

Bringing my post back to the op, seismic removes the requirement to have one mech watching the blob's six and not contributing for most the match.

#139 Dracol

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 08:47 PM

View Postpulupulu, on 01 July 2013 - 08:21 PM, said:

I am surprised some people still try to say it isn't that bad.

Let's put it this way.

Advance sesmic sensor is so good, that it make bad variant of medium mech able to compete against a good assault mech without sesmic.

Recently I have been doing pretty good with hunchback, and I know it wasn't because I got that much better; it was because I got advance sesmic sensor.

To be honest, I do like the meta where people are moving without seeing each other in order to get best position (both side with A.S.S.). It felt like a chess game. However, against people without it, it is too easy.

If they are going to keep it, they should make it available to everyone as easy as possible.

Let me ask you this:
how do you fair against assualts who have it? Do you still charge headlong and get one shotted?

Has seismic made made meds more or less viable? And if more viable, is it a good thing to have the Meta shift from an assault / heavy bias towards a Meta that all weight classes can shine in?

Edited by Dracol, 01 July 2013 - 08:48 PM.


#140 Aim64C

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 10:05 PM

View PostDracol, on 01 July 2013 - 08:41 PM, said:

Aim64c, I appreciated the info low down. Was an interesting read. As were your ideas on expanding electronic warfare in MWO.

Comparing RL equipment to MW:O, we can see PGI has taken a more advanced position. The uav drone is much more accurate then what is currently available. But, they stayed away from complete radar coverage found in previous MW titles as well as current fps games.


You kind of have to take the "more advanced" approach with games like this that are not intended to be hard-core simulators. It's a lot of work to sift through the data and figure out what is relevant and what is not (and the programs designed to help with that can make errors).

If this were a hard-core sim environment, we'd spend twenty minutes playing scout-tag with each other and the fight would be over in thirty to ninety seconds.

Seeing how people around here complain about having to walk more than three steps to be in range of the enemy on Alpine...

Quote

As much as I would love a complex system like you described in your thread, IMHO it is not a viable position for a game to take if they desire to draw in a large player base.

One thing your ideas are based around is the inclusion of a dedicated scout in a group. Unfortunitly there is only a small percent of the population that wants to sit on the sidelines, target for others, and watch the action unfold. For a dedicated group of 8 mans, this role could be filled, and most likely not reluctantly.

When it comes to general population though, IMHO it would be poor game design if a successful team required such a passive role to succeed. Personally I've achieved a 2 wins to 1 lose record in meds/lights or fast heavies simply by being the person that watches the flanks. It seems like 9 times out of 10 when I run a slow heavy or an assualt we lose simply because everyone stays in a blob with no scouting.


A lot of that would go by the way-side once community warfare is implemented and a more complex match-making system is implemented. Just like how a lot of games have "roles" that you queue for in raid groups - you'd have the same thing happen, here - or there'd be the ability to launch with your mechs in the 4-slot "ready bay" and select your role from them (or some combination of both - especially if the pilot skill-tree is revamped to include specific weapon systems and other stuff - though I may be getting my hopes up too high, there).

Add in an integrated voice-chat system, and that would all go over about as well as it could for a random group.

I don't think MechWarrior should embrace the ideology of "bring the player, not the class." A lot of players have left WoW because of that, and have migrated to other games.

In this game - you functionally cannot do that. Lights are not "the same" as heavies and assaults. You can't "bring the player, not the class" with them - everyone will end up in heavies and assaults, because those "bring the player."

Without a solid information warfare aspect that relies upon lights - many lights completely lose their efficacy because they don't pack ECM or spam enough lasers to make them effective strike platforms. The information warfare portion of the game is largely one-sided. ECM denies information and is really the only reason to bring along some of the lights.

Because the role of a fast scout that feeds information to the team is absent. You really only need BAP if you have missiles on your rig. TAG is occasionally carried by lights - but NARC is -rarely- seen (took me by surprise when I saw someone running it earlier today).

Scouting is powerful - but not essential. You can 'scout' with a group of Atli. You just aren't fast - but good teamwork can still meet the enemy with you at the advantage. The enemy having a fast scout doesn't really put you at much of a disadvantage (unless they start throwing in some extra capture objectives or something).

Mind you - I'm talking about combat. In the overall game objective of Conquest - it can be argued that fast lights are nearly essential... but mechs like the QuickDraw really kind of put lights in a difficult position.





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