160 replies to this topic

[Escef]

CutterWolf, on 30 June 2013 - 07:32 PM, said:

Nice try, however your moving mechs feet do not stay in contact with the ground for the duration it would take to get a reading thus, "its magic" Plus the fact it would not be able to rule out all the other seismic noise coming from all your friendly mechs moving around you.

And tell us, oh master of seismometry, how long would it take for a 31st century seismic sensor to collect this data?

[Takony]

It's OP, but at the same time it made the game/information warfare one notch more complex.
As many others, I have it maxed, and I always assume the enemy has it maxed as well, and that they are paying close attention to its readings.

Sometimes it just turns games into slaughters, but sometimes it's like Tom and Jerry going on for 10+ minutes, people chasing each other, hiding, running, feinting, stopping, making it fun and adrenaline-packed.

But for the ones that have no seismic at all on their lance/team, well, you have to bait and switch/tap-cap scare to dissolve the killboxes waiting for you, and watch your backs, all the time :S

Range and/or tonnage/class-based or some other "unorthodox" PGI style nerf is probable, but ETA is unknown, it could be months, so until then, it is pretty-much must-have.

[Kunae]

Fabe, on 30 June 2013 - 06:58 PM, said:

So the only way for the tracking system that keeps track of our mechs on the mini-map to tell the seismic sensor that the seismic contact its picking up in the exact same spot that the mini-map tracking systeam already knows is a friendly mech is magic? OK fine,its magic.

Narcisoldier, on 30 June 2013 - 07:08 PM, said:

Take this scenario:

You have a friendly mech in position A because friendly mechs transmit their positions with each other

Your seismic sensor now picks up two contacts, one in position A and one in position B.

Your nav computer already knows that a friendly mech is in position A so by deduction, the mech in position B is an enemy mech.

Therefore, the seismic sensor tells your nav computer to place a red dot on the map over position B.

However it is a valid point that a seismic sensor attached to your mech would not be able to hear mechs 400 meters away over the sound of your own stompy robot. It would make more sense as a deployable consumable.

Because of PGI's wonderful skill, we have the ability to see the magic, without your rationalizations. IFF fails for friendly mechs in most games. There always seems to be 1 or 2 mechs that will not show IFF if they're not in your forward arc. These mechs show a blue dot, if you have seismic and they're moving.

Magic!

[Shae Starfyre]

I think the module is fine as is. I read (most of) this thread and saw a lot (most) of unimaginative people gripping about it.

There are 5 main attack aspects to this module that can be used as psychological warfare on the battle field, and not one person has made any use of it in this thread.

1.) Assume the enemy has it (the beginning of psychological warfare).

2.) Stop and go movement has an affect (as seen below, but can also hide you when in a fast 'Mech as the next position after a hard stop is automatically calculated subconsciously by us humans, causing the other to move where he thinks you are going, only to realize you are not where he thought).

3.) staggered stop and go movement can move 4 mechs and make them look like 2 mechs (I once witness a team staggering three mechs, one would move a little, stop, second one move up, stop, third, and so forth sneaking 3 heavies into a flanking position).

4.) a scout can pull people away without ever getting close.

5.) I will leave this one for the imagination and not reveal all my tricks (forget it, fine: have 4 high alphas in one place, close to a breach in terrain like the drop ship on frozen while the other half of the team plays staggered movement in an area not too far away to make it look like more than 3-4 'Mechs there; the four in one place alternate movement to simulate one 'Mech is there as they get in position (can be made to look like he is moving forward to peek); this can draw one or two 'Mechs over the ridge expecting a quick kill, you can image how the rest of the story goes).

yeah, your right, the module is over powered; over-powered your imagination into a seemingly endless rant of discontent!

Edited by Aphoticus, 01 July 2013 - 08:48 AM.

[superteds]

Aphoticus, on 01 July 2013 - 08:32 AM, said:

I think the module is fine as is. I read this thread and saw a lot of unimaginative people gripping about it.

There are 5 main attack aspects to this module that can be used as psychological warfare on the battle field, and not one person has made any use of it in this thread.

1.) Assume the enemy has it.
2.) Stop and go movement has an affect.
3.) staggered stop and go movement can move 4 mechs and make them look like 2 mechs (I once witness a team staggering three mechs, one would move a little, stop, second one move up, stop, third, and so forth sneaking 3 heavies into a flanking position).
4.) a scout can pull people away without ever getting close.
5.) I will leave this one for the imagination and not reveal all my tricks (forget it, fine: have 4 high alphas in one place, close to a breach in terrain like the drop ship on frozen while the other half of the team plays staggered movement an area away; the four in one place alternate movement to simulate one 'Mech is there; draws one or two 'Mechs over the ridge expecting a quick kill, you can image how the rest of the story goes).

yeah, your right, the module is over powered; over powered your imagination into a seemingly endless rant of discontent!

clearly you are far more advanced than all of us, and the module is absolutely fine.

obviously.

[Shae Starfyre]

Yea, I came off rather haughty, sorry. Really just trying to show that there are uses for this module that can have an interesting impact for bait/switch tactics, and such.

My apologies.

[Kunae]

Aphoticus, on 01 July 2013 - 08:51 AM, said:

Yea, I came off rather haughty, sorry. Really just trying to show that there are uses for this module that can have an interesting impact for bait/switch tactics, and such. My apologies.

That can be said for any hair-brained scheme that PGI can come up with. The question is, why should we? Was this necessary? Does it make the game any better, or does it make it worse?

That'd be a negative, Ghostrider, the pattern is full.

[PropagandaWar]

I love the thing, but I agree it is OP. Decrease both ranges by 35% and force you to be stationary makes sense.

[Sug]

I'd like to see the range modified by mech class.

Either

Can detect other mechs at:

Light - 400m
Medium - 300m
Heavy - 200m
Assault - 100m

or

Can BE detected by other mechs at:

Light - 100m
Medium - 200m
Heavy - 300m
Assault - 400m


Also get rid of a dot per mech on the hud. There should just be a dot indicating a disturbance with its size based on how big the disturbance is. This way it still detects "something" but you can't just call out "3 mechs in C4"

Maybe 3 light mechs within 100m of each other would give the same disturbance dot as 1 heavy mech. Or something.

[Xmith]

Why would you want to nerf the Seismic Sensors? This is one module that is available to all mechs. It's on you if you choose not to use the Seismic Sensors. It levels the playing field in regard to enemy detection.

[Jonny Taco]

Takony, on 30 June 2013 - 11:45 PM, said:

It's OP, but at the same time it made the game/information warfare one notch more complex.
As many others, I have it maxed, and I always assume the enemy has it maxed as well, and that they are paying close attention to its readings.

Um, it actually makes the game LESS complex... It shoehorns actual scouting and gives essentially an I win module to those with 25k GXP...

So yeah, game became less complex, not more complex...

Xmith, on 01 July 2013 - 09:54 AM, said:

Why would you want to nerf the Seismic Sensors? This is one module that is available to all mechs. It's on you if you choose not to use the Seismic Sensors. It levels the playing field in regard to enemy detection.

A module being available to all mechs/players does not make it "balanced".

Seismic Sensor is a fundamentally broken module/mechanic. It needs to be removed/nerfed very heavily.

[Xmith]

lartfor, on 01 July 2013 - 09:55 AM, said:

Um, it actually makes the game LESS complex... It shoehorns actual scouting and gives essentially an I win module to those with 25k GXP...

So yeah, game became less complex, not more complex...



A module being available to all mechs/players does not make it "balanced".

Seismic Sensor is a fundamentally broken module/mechanic. It needs to be removed/nerfed very heavily.

I don't think balance has anything to do with this. People just don't want to use their module space for Seismic Sensor. they prefer to use the space for something else. And since they can't use it, they cry nerf it. Like I said before, it's available to all mechs. That is your problem if you choose not to use it.

[superteds]

Xmith, on 01 July 2013 - 10:02 AM, said:

I don't think balance has anything to do with this. People just don't want to use their module space for Seismic Sensor. they prefer to use the space for something else. And since they can't use it, they cry nerf it. Like I said before, it's available to all mechs. That is your problem if you choose not to use it.

do you require day-to-day help with breathing or something?

to expand;

there could be a weapon in the game weighing 1t, 1crit and doing an instant 10damage over 1km for 1 heat.

would that be balanced because everyone else could fit it? No, because it would **** all over every other weapon competing for space in those crits. currently, seismic makes every other module an afterthought, because it is SO ******* GOOD

Edited by superteds, 01 July 2013 - 10:09 AM.

[Monky]

Seismic needs 2 reworks - update every 5 seconds instead of real time (call it movement clutter) and greatly reduce the range for detecting lights, mediums, and mechs that are still considered 'walking'. I forget what the exact speed/throttle position is between walking/running but it should make a difference.

[Jman5]

Xmith, on 01 July 2013 - 10:02 AM, said:

I don't think balance has anything to do with this. People just don't want to use their module space for Seismic Sensor. they prefer to use the space for something else. And since they can't use it, they cry nerf it. Like I said before, it's available to all mechs. That is your problem if you choose not to use it.

I say this without a hint of exaggeration. Advanced Seismic Module is one of the most imbalanced items ever added to Mechwarrior Online. More imbalanced than ECM ever was, more imbalanced than ER-PPCs, more imbalanced than jumpsniping pre-shake.

It's effectively a 400 meter radius maphack. You're forced to equip it just so you can know that your opponent knows where you are. It hurts every short range mech build by announcing your presence whenever you push toward an enemy. On the flip side, it helps immobile sniper platforms who can stand still and stay outside the seismic range. It hurts the offensive ability of mechs that were already hurting most in the current meta, which makes it all the more insidious.

The longer it stays in the game as is, the more people are going to realize this.

[hammerreborn]

Jman5, on 01 July 2013 - 12:15 PM, said:

I say this without a hint of exaggeration. Advanced Seismic Module is one of the most imbalanced items ever added to Mechwarrior Online. More imbalanced than ECM ever was, more imbalanced than ER-PPCs, more imbalanced than jumpsniping pre-shake.

It's effectively a 400 meter radius maphack. You're forced to equip it just so you can know that your opponent knows where you are. It hurts every short range mech build by announcing your presence whenever you push toward an enemy. On the flip side, it helps immobile sniper platforms who can stand still and stay outside the seismic range. It hurts the offensive ability of mechs that were already hurting most in the current meta, which makes it all the more insidious.

The longer it stays in the game as is, the more people are going to realize this.

Hell, half the routes in the game are completely negated by it.

Frozen city is only a ridge fight. Anyone that goes cave will be immediately spotted, same with Jenner highway (I tested it, from the ridge with the building to basically the boundary line is about 400m, not to mention even outside of it now you're in the wide open since all the cover is closer to the ridge, not away).

Forest Colony lost cave rushes, lake rushes have no cover on the most part and in ppc meta just becomes a giant snipefest.

River City loses all manueverability and sneakyness, the atlas knows exactly which building you'll pop up from.

TD and Alpine don't have any real effects, because they are for the most part wide open anyways. But due to the ridge lines that are fought at scouts are hardpressed to get behind the enemy team without being pinged by at least one sensor.

Caustic is completely ruined. The amount of times I've won caustic by just sitting still on one side of the ridge, waiting for the 6-7 pings, throwing up a UAV from behind cover and watching the entire other team explode is basically every game where I've had LRMs on my side. Pushing either ridge is easily spotted, leaving the teams completely exposed when rushing. The only option is far left or right.

And canyon is ruined because the whole point of the map is losing LoS due to the trenches and hills, which doesn't matter cause LOL SEISMIC!

[Rippthrough]

Either delete it, or just have an indicator light or meter when there is seismic activity nearby. That way you know someone is close but not how many or where.

[jeffsw6]

Jman5, on 01 July 2013 - 12:15 PM, said:

I say this without a hint of exaggeration. Advanced Seismic Module is one of the most imbalanced items ever added to Mechwarrior Online. More imbalanced than ECM ever was, more imbalanced than ER-PPCs, more imbalanced than jumpsniping pre-shake.
...
The longer it stays in the game as is, the more people are going to realize this.

QFT

It also gives another huge advantage to pre-mades playing against PUGs. Why? Because the Seismic Sensor information is not shared with teammates in-game. If you are on VOIP, though, you can easily say "4 enemies on seismic around the corner," but you can't type that out easily, and teammates are liable to not read it immediately. Even if they do, PUG teammates probably don't know where you are and what corner you're talking about, because you are a PUG, not a pre-made.

hammerreborn, on 01 July 2013 - 12:23 PM, said:

Hell, half the routes in the game are completely negated by it.

...
And canyon is ruined because the whole point of the map is losing LoS due to the trenches and hills, which doesn't matter cause LOL SEISMIC!

Yes, yet another massive balance change that PGI did with zero thought to how that change integrates with their existing maps.

These maps, by the way, supposedly cost $250k each to make. So they don't think about the $1.5 million or so of money they spent on maps, when making changes to LRM flight-arc or adding in Seismic Sensor. No thought at all.

[Aim64C]

Honestly, the seismic sensor needs a good reworking - as others have said.

Detection should be based on the size of the mech moving, its intensity of movement, the terrain it is on, and the terrain the detecting mech is on. Further, for mechs, it should require you to be stationary to get readings.

If you're stomping through swamps or the mud in a bay, you shouldn't be making nearly as much seismic disturbance (and shouldn't be very good at hearing it. However, standing on solid rock would plausibly connect you to the bedrock that will act as a conductor of seismic activity.

Although if we wanted to be real with using seismic detection - it would be about as complicated and convoluted of a dark art as using passive sonar in submarines. It's not an exact thing - you just know "around" where something is - but a lot of local factors can throw that reading off. A sound channel can make it sound like a ship that is 30 kilometers away is coming down right on top of you at 2 kilometers.

But that's more involved than MWO needs to get with it.

[Lootee]

They need to add consumable Thumpers that you can deploy.

"HOLY CRAP! There's 18 mechs behind this row of buildings." No, it's just a Spider trolling you with a pack of thumpers. And if your team plants enough thumpers a worm should burrow out of ground and eat the opposing team.