284 replies to this topic

[Sug]

Hillslam, on 05 November 2013 - 12:16 PM, said:

We know that the pilots of the ComGuards were using Star League era technology. Effectively nearly negating the Clan Technology advantage.

Not nessesarily true. While the Com Guard mechs were advanced compared to normal Inner Sphere mechs they were still about 300 years behind the clans. Inner Sphere tech went backwards, Com Guard tech stayed the same, Clan tech advanced.

Hillslam, on 05 November 2013 - 12:16 PM, said:

What I don't understand is where these armies and armies of ComGuard pilots came from. Where did they get their EXPERIENCE from? Wargaming over and over on Terra???

Did they secretly draw in warriors from the inner sphere? If so how in the world was this giant secret military force kept a secret???

Someone please school me on what happened in the lore. Who were these ComGuard pilots and where did they get their combat expertise honed enough to take on Clan Mechwarriors and win?

In the Black Thorns novel Main Event the main character talks about how the Guards trained with simulators and some live exercises. He also mentions that most of the guards were not from Com Star but were mercs/pilots/pirates/etc that the Guards Adopted. Most of the Guards were not believers in the pseudoreligion of Comstar.

Joseph Mallan, on 06 November 2013 - 09:15 AM, said:

The Novels hinted at it a bit. Jamie Wolf and IIRC Morgan Kell caught wind of some ComGuards smelling of Coolant when they attended the Steiner-Davion wedding.

I believe it's in the original Warrior Trilogy novels where Jamie Wolf and some others(?) discover an underground hanger with rows and rows of pristine mechs as far as the eye could see. They also notice some of the Adepts walking around have cooling vests under their robes.

Vanguard319, on 06 November 2013 - 12:08 PM, said:

I doubt that Focht just presented new Star League tech mechs to his troops and stated they had 24 hours to familiarize themselves with the their systems. There were quite a few mechs that survived the succession wars that were either downgraded versions, (mechs like the non-gauss rifle armed Highlander for example) or for mechs that were believed to be extinct designs, the troops were either trained on simulators, mechs with similar control layouts, or trained on the actual mechs on one of Comstar's hidden worlds.

Most of the mechs were orginial Star League designs with advanced equipment while the rest of the normal mechs were upgraded with tech not available to the rest of the IS. Double heat sinks, pulse lasers, etc

Joseph Mallan, on 06 November 2013 - 12:03 PM, said:

Its been 10+ years since I read any BattleTech novels! I don't even own one any more

I still have all of them except a copy of Sword and Dagger from 1987 : /

Edited by Sug, 06 November 2013 - 12:16 PM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Do you think Operation Scorpion Will also Happen?

Vanguard319, on 06 November 2013 - 12:08 PM, said:

I doubt that Focht just presented new Star League tech mechs to his troops and stated they had 24 hours to familiarize themselves with the their systems. There were quite a few mechs that survived the succession wars that were either downgraded versions, (mechs like the non-gauss rifle armed Highlander for example) or for mechs that were believed to be extinct designs, the troops were either trained on simulators, mechs with similar control layouts, or trained on the actual mechs on one of Comstar's hidden worlds.

Correct they had been doing SimRuns and lots of behind close doors training.

Sug, on 06 November 2013 - 12:09 PM, said:

Not nessesarily true. While the Com Guard mechs were advanced compared to normal Inner Sphere mechs they were still about 300 years behind the clans. Inner Sphere tech went backwards, Com Guard tech stayed the same, Clan tech advanced.

I believe it's in the original Warrior Trilogy novels where Jamie Wolf and some others(?) discover an underground hanger with rows and rows of pristine mechs as far as the eye could see.

Thank You!

[xhrit]

Clan Wolf threw the fight. That is the only reason Comstar won.

[Hillslam]

Clan wolf won.

The other clans lost, so if any throwing were done it was by them. Not likely though eh?

So I see how its conceivable ComStar could have hidden the mechs for centuries. I'm just having a hard time buying into that thousands of comguard pilots/mechwarriors were able to keep their existance a secret for so long. That many mouths someone's going to blab.

I can see how if the ComGuards trained on sims and the battle plan was from the outset one of attrittion and trading comguard bodies for clan bodies then the battle could be won.

Do we know the actual numbers involved? In terms of individuals? Like are we talked tens of thousands of comguard mechs vs thousands of clan mechs? Over the entire battle? Or are we just talked many hundreds?

Did ComStar drain all their HPG stations of guards prior to this battle? If so how'd they ferry them all to Tukyyid without all the houses wondering wtf? How'd they ferry them at all? ComStar had Jumpships?

This is all very interesting and fun to speculate and talk about. Fascinating stuff. Some of the best lore in Sci Fi.

Edited by Hillslam, 06 November 2013 - 12:49 PM.

[CyclonerM]

Hillslam, on 06 November 2013 - 12:45 PM, said:

Did ComStar drain all their HPG stations of guards prior to this battle? If so how'd they ferry them all to Tukyyid without all the houses wondering wtf? How'd they ferry them at all? ComStar had Jumpships?

ComStar has WarShips.

Just saying..

[3rdworld]

Hillslam, on 06 November 2013 - 12:45 PM, said:

Clan wolf won.

The other clans lost, so if any throwing were done it was by them. Not likely though eh?

So I see how its conceivable ComStar could have hidden the mechs for centuries. I'm just having a hard time buying into that thousands of comguard pilots/mechwarriors were able to keep their existance a secret for so long. That many mouths someone's going to blab.

I can see how if the ComGuards trained on sims and the battle plan was from the outset one of attrittion and trading comguard bodies for clan bodies then the battle could be won.

Do we know the actual numbers involved? In terms of individuals? Like are we talked tens of thousands of comguard mechs vs thousands of clan mechs? Over the entire battle? Or are we just talked many hundreds?

Did ComStar drain all their HPG stations of guards prior to this battle? If so how'd they ferry them all to Tukyyid without all the houses wondering wtf? How'd they ferry them at all? ComStar had Jumpships?

This is all very interesting and fun to speculate and talk about. Fascinating stuff. Some of the best lore in Sci Fi.

Comstar pledged 144 regiments to the battle. A battlemech battalion is 108 mechs and a regiment consists of 3-5 battalions. So they may have used anywhere from ~50,000-75,000 mechs. (assuming it was all mechs, some of it would have been aerospace / armor / infantry assets).

If I remember correctly Comstar lost some 50 regiments in the battle.

clan Jade falcon used 3 galaxies in the battle which would have equaled 3-5 regiments per, so around 15 regiments

Most clans fought against overwhelming numbers and basically lost due to bidding before the battle ever started.

Edited by 3rdworld, 06 November 2013 - 01:08 PM.

[Sug]

Hillslam, on 06 November 2013 - 12:45 PM, said:

So I see how its conceivable ComStar could have hidden the mechs for centuries. I'm just having a hard time buying into that thousands of comguard pilots/mechwarriors were able to keep their existance a secret for so long. That many mouths someone's going to blab.

The Com Guards were spread throughout the Inner Sphere in company(?) sized units guarding HPG stations. I don't imagine Comstar gave them much ''shore leave".

Hillslam, on 06 November 2013 - 12:45 PM, said:

Do we know the actual numbers involved? In terms of individuals? Like are we talked tens of thousands of comguard mechs vs thousands of clan mechs? Over the entire battle? Or are we just talked many hundreds?

Did ComStar drain all their HPG stations of guards prior to this battle? If so how'd they ferry them all to Tukyyid without all the houses wondering wtf? How'd they ferry them at all? ComStar had Jumpships?

3rdworld, on 06 November 2013 - 12:56 PM, said:

Comstar pledged 144 regiments to the battle. A battlemech battalion is 108 mechs and a regiment consists of 3-5 battalions. So they may have used anywhere from ~50,000-75,000 mechs. (assuming it was all mechs, some of it would have been aerospace / armor / infantry assets).

Slight correction: Regiments are 108 to 180 mechs http://www.sarna.net...giment#Regiment

From Lost Destiny

(Chapter 14)
"Make no mistake about it, Precentor Martial, I understand very, very well the historical nature of the battle you are going to undertake. You will have nearly fifty regiments of BattleMechs. You will have armor and artillery and aerospace and infantry at your disposal. You will have under your command the largest armed force ever gathered since General Aleksandr Kerensky left with the Star League army."

(Chapter 23)
"We will be defending Tukayyid with approximately fifty BattleMech regiments and appropriate air, artillery, armor, and infantry support. We have chosen not to use naval units because Tukayyid's surface water is limited and naval engagements would unnecessarily endanger the underwater city in the Crucible Sea."
Ulric appeared momentarily stunned by the declaration of ComStar's strength. "Fifty regiments?"
Focht nodded solemnly. "That is everything ComStar has, save the two 'Mech divisions on Terra itself. The Primus was disinclined to have her bodyguard units sent away."

(Chapter 27)
"Natasha leaned over on the right arm of her chair. The chair's white leather padding set off the black of her jumpsuit as she drew her legs up. "So did you manage to hash out the troop assignments for the battle with ComStar?"
Ulric's head came forward and his eyes opened with a flash of blue. "I told them that I believed twenty-five Galaxies would be an appropriate response to ComStar's pledge of fifty regiments. That would be three Galaxies apiece, with the extra four going to the Wolf Clan by rights.""

A regiment would have between 108 and 180 mechs. So the Comguards had between 5400 and 9000 battlemechs. I'm not sure if there are any specific numbers for the Clans but they took 25 Galaxies, with the Wolves bidding away 2 of the extra 4 they ended up with, so 23 Galaxies were taken, which the remaining Clans further reduced by bidding for the right to land first.

(Chapter 27)
"If we start with the twenty-five Galaxies we are committing, less the five Galaxies of Wolves, we'll be giving them a thousand-'Mechs advantage on the first day. If we assume air, armor, and artillery units on each side balance out, our force is still only 71 percent of their force."
Planting elbows on knees, Ranna leaned forward. "Each one of our 'Mechs will have to kill 1.3 ComStar 'Mechs just to keep us even. Of course, this is predicated on full deployment, but we know the other Clans will bargain down some of their strength. The Smoke Jaguars and Nova Cats never even approached that kill ratio on Luthien."

Just guestimating but I would say the Clans had almost half the number of mechs the Com Guards had.

The battle was negotiated on April 5th and began May 1st. If Comstar had Command_Circuits set up then it's possible they could have pulled troops from all over the Inner Sphere in time.

ALSO, from Main Event we can see the time frame Com Star operated in.

(Chapter 13)
"Eventually the drive came to a halt, and we believed the Clans had ended the invasion, but still we trained and practiced. When the attacks began again the soldiers of my command felt almost a sense of relief. A sense of purpose. Finally the grim news arrived that the Clan armies intended to attack Luthien. Here, finally, was the test of our trials and efforts. We would help the Draconis Combine defend its capital world.

"When the invaders arrived, however, the Com Guard forces were ordered to return to our base. Although we were allowed to protect the ComStar compound, we were not to engage the Clans. I sat for more than fourteen hours in my cockpit listening to the Kuritans fighting and dying. I listened to the arrival of the Kell Hounds and Dragoons. I sat and looked out over a seemingly peaceful city as thousands died just a few kilometers away.

"At the time I was furious. I even attempted to resign my commission, but Precentor Commander Brockton would not accept it. He finally placed me under house discipline to keep me from leaving. Three days later I was on a ship heading for a planet called Tukayyid."


The battle of Luthien took place on January 4th of that year, so Com Star had been moving it's troops for months prior to the negotiation and the start of the battle of Tukayyid.

Edit: This is all from the Battletech novels so if any of the source books have different information/numbers they would trump this info.

Here are the losses reported by the sourcebook.

Edited by Sug, 06 November 2013 - 02:58 PM.

[Sug]

We need a lore forum. I love this ****.

[Crook]

This leads to a question I've always had regarding Ulric, and some of the other clans. I understand Ulric never wanted to be Il-Khan, and was against the invasion of the inner sphere. What I never understood was why Ulric seemed to become anti-clan, with the refusal war and ordering clan Wolf to protect the Inner Sphere and changing Wolf's Dragoons orders etc. This apparently constant sabotage of the clans is the one thing I never understood about Ulric.

[Sug]

Crook, on 06 November 2013 - 05:02 PM, said:

This leads to a question I've always had regarding Ulric, and some of the other clans. I understand Ulric never wanted to be Il-Khan, and was against the invasion of the inner sphere. What I never understood was why Ulric seemed to become anti-clan, with the refusal war and ordering clan Wolf to protect the Inner Sphere and changing Wolf's Dragoons orders etc. This apparently constant sabotage of the clans is the one thing I never understood about Ulric.

Jaroth Corbett, on 06 November 2013 - 05:52 PM, said:

Ulric was a Warden.

Beat me to it : /

[xhrit]

Jaroth Corbett, on 06 November 2013 - 04:15 PM, said:

Clan Wolf was successful in their campaign.

Clan wolf was successful, yes, but they intentionally bid lower then they thought they would need to win the fight, in an attempt to make all the other clans underbid them to gain more honor.

It worked, the other clans took the bait, and thus all the clans dropped against comstar with much less forces then they would have actually needed to win the fight.

Clan Wolf still won their campaign, even with having massively underbid, because that is how bad *** they are. The other clans were not able to fare as well. Focht was right, the clans lost because Clan Wolf wanted them to lose. The ilkhan lied about it because he didn't want to be punished for treason.

Edited by xhrit, 06 November 2013 - 08:54 PM.

[Sug]

xhrit, on 06 November 2013 - 08:47 PM, said:

Clan wolf was successful, yes, but they intentionally bid lower then they thought they would need to win the fight, in an attempt to make all the other clans underbid them to gain more honor.

It worked, the other clans took the bait, and thus all the clans dropped against comstar with much less forces then they would have actually needed to win the fight.

Clan Wolf still won their campaign, even with having massively underbid, because that is how bad *** they are. The other clans were not able to fare as well. Focht was right, the clans lost because Clan Wolf wanted them to lose. The ilkhan lied about it because he didn't want to be punished for treason.

I disagree!



"Ulric's head came forward and his eyes opened with a flash of blue. "I told them that I believed twenty-five Galaxies would be an appropriate response to ComStar's pledge of fifty regiments. That would be three Galaxies apiece, with the extra four going to the Wolf Clan by rights."
"That started a firestorm. I immediately bid away two of those extra Galaxies"

"The problem is that those idiots then started bidding among themselves for the right to be the first to land. The Smoke Jaguars won that right, but I believe they sacrificed too much to do so. The others have nothing but contempt for ComStar because of its pacifistic message and they believe they will roll over Focht's forces with ease. They have discounted the dangers of the ComStar air, armor, and artillery assets. I am fairly certain, in fact, that Star Colonels and Star Captains will bid among themselves and further dilute their strength."

Clan Wolf brought down more troops than any other Clan.



"Focht turned on him. "Your people got off lightly? Are you not the ilKhan? Do you not lead all the Clans?"
The ilKhan slowly shook his head. "As this battle would prematurely decide the end of our quest, our crusade, it was determined that control of the individual operations would fall to the Clan Khans. Though I was permitted to review all data coming up from the planet, I was not obliged to distribute it unless asked. As no one saw fit to request my thoughts, I was free to act to the benefit of my Clan."

So, they forced you to act on your own and you let them twist in the wind. "Had you led them, coordinated them, you would have defeated me."

Ulric was aware of the other Clans underbidding and did nothing to stop it but he did not trick them into it. He even sent out this message.

[xhrit]

Lol, so the ilkhan told all the clans to equip short range weapons and charge at the inner sphere who would be kiting them using long range weapons on fast moving units?

Yeah.

^^

Edited by xhrit, 06 November 2013 - 10:14 PM.

[Hawkeye 72]

I don't have much of anything to add here that hasn't already been stated with thorough documentation to support, so in summary:

+Comstar had been gathering hundreds of battlemechs for 50+ years and owned a monopoly on advanced Star League technology.
+Comstar controls all means of communication and has an extensive network of agents and resources so keeping this secret wasn't an issue. Also to their advantage was the fact no one would believe they had such an army anyway.
-Comstar may have trained with simulators for many years, the simulators lacked actual combat experience, which resulted in massive casualties. Let me reiterate: MASSIVE
+Comstar however was not limited by the practices of Batchall and actually cooperated as a unified defensive unit.
+Comstar also had the advantage of being the defender on a planet they knew with objectives they selected.

Meanwhile the Clans...

+Had vastly superior technology and experience. They had been plowing through Inner Sphere units for upwards of two years and had honed their skills. Not to mention their eugenics program which had its limited benefits.
-The Clans refused to cooperate with each other, underbid, were thus outnumbered, lacked intel, and essentially kneecapped themselves before the battle

Comstar essentially hoarded their forces for years and won a war of attrition against an overconfident, arrogant, and underprepared invasion force. The odds were stacked in the favor of Comstar from the beginning, and they STILL suffered massive casualties on par with an inexperienced combat unit.

A clever way for the Battletech writers to get themselves out of a hole with the unstoppable invasion force they had created.

[Demos]

3rdworld, on 06 November 2013 - 12:56 PM, said:

Comstar pledged 144 regiments to the battle. A battlemech battalion is 108 mechs and a regiment consists of 3-5 battalions. So they may have used anywhere from ~50,000-75,000 mechs. (assuming it was all mechs, some of it would have been aerospace / armor / infantry assets).

If I remember correctly Comstar lost some 50 regiments in the battle.

.

Oh my...

C* had 72 divisions ,each consists of roughly two regiments of combined arms.

There are your 144 regiments.
Nevertheless, each divison had roughly two bats (36 Mechs each) of BattleMechs, so C* had approximatey 5000 (72 * 72= 5.184) Mechs at Tukkyaid, not 50.000.
The sourcebook Twenty Year Updates gives also C* appp. 50 BattleMech regiments.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Sug, on 06 November 2013 - 09:44 PM, said:

"Ulric's head came forward and his eyes opened with a flash of blue. "I told them that I believed twenty-five Galaxies would be an appropriate response to ComStar's pledge of fifty regiments. That would be three Galaxies apiece, with the extra four going to the Wolf Clan by rights."
"That started a firestorm. I immediately bid away two of those extra Galaxies"

"The problem is that those idiots then started bidding among themselves for the right to be the first to land. The Smoke Jaguars won that right, but I believe they sacrificed too much to do so. The others have nothing but contempt for ComStar because of its pacifistic message and they believe they will roll over Focht's forces with ease. They have discounted the dangers of the ComStar air, armor, and artillery assets. I am fairly certain, in fact, that Star Colonels and Star Captains will bid among themselves and further dilute their strength."

Where is that from please?

Sug, on 06 November 2013 - 09:44 PM, said:

"Focht turned on him. "Your people got off lightly? Are you not the ilKhan? Do you not lead all the Clans?"
The ilKhan slowly shook his head. "As this battle would prematurely decide the end of our quest, our crusade, it was determined that control of the individual operations would fall to the Clan Khans. Though I was permitted to review all data coming up from the planet, I was not obliged to distribute it unless asked. As no one saw fit to request my thoughts, I was free to act to the benefit of my Clan."

So, they forced you to act on your own and you let them twist in the wind. "Had you led them, coordinated them, you would have defeated me."

I already quoted that.

xhrit, on 06 November 2013 - 10:13 PM, said:

Lol, so the ilkhan told all the clans to equip short range weapons and charge at the inner sphere who would be kiting them using long range weapons on fast moving units?

Yeah.

^^

Actually if you read it properly he said,

Quote

"Wherever possible, confront the enemy at long range; make the most of that advantage."

Edited by Jaroth Corbett, 07 November 2013 - 03:23 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

xhrit, on 06 November 2013 - 10:13 PM, said:

Lol, so the ilkhan told all the clans to equip short range weapons and charge at the inner sphere who would be kiting them using long range weapons on fast moving units?

Yeah.

^^

You dont read well. The suggestion was to equip long range weapons and exploit that advantage. If Missiles were deployed, close and destroy. Basic combat tactics 101. Now knowing the Crusaders hated Ulric's Warden sympathy, The Crusaders would refuse to listen to a nurse maid. Reverse psychology.

[Joseph Mallan]

CyclonerM, on 06 November 2013 - 12:54 PM, said:

ComStar has WarShips.

Just saying..

ComStars fleet (At the time), was no match for the Clan's Naval fleet. The Nova Cat fleet alone would mop the stars with what ComStar had. Have you ever seen the broadside of an Aegis in action? The Cats have 12. That is a Wall of Battle few Ships can survive. I know I did the sims for before Trial of Refusal. In 3 turns the Ghost Bears Warships were scrap vs just 3 Aegis.

[Naglinator]

Lol, how did ComStar win. How did the rebels win at the first battle of death star or at Endor? Good guys gotta win, plot logic be damned. The book series were transiting from clan invasion to the fed com wars(in less then 3 books!) so they wrote an easy out. Same way the silly WoB wars and the Jihad and the war of the reaving happened. They needed to sell new stuff so they decided to throw everything on it's head

[Joseph Mallan]

Naglinator, on 07 November 2013 - 07:16 AM, said:

Lol, how did ComStar win. How did the rebels win at the first battle of death star or at Endor? Good guys gotta win, plot logic be damned. The book series were transiting from clan invasion to the fed com wars(in less then 3 books!) so they wrote an easy out. Same way the silly WoB wars and the Jihad and the war of the reaving happened. They needed to sell new stuff so they decided to throw everything on it's head

Depressing but true.