103 replies to this topic

[Woodstock]

But do you guys really feel that when you go up against a clan star it should be a fair fight?

[GreyGriffin]

woodstock, on 17 November 2011 - 11:13 PM, said:

But do you guys really feel that when you go up against a clan star it should be a fair fight?

Frankly? Yes.

The worst imbalance I would really see as playable would be Binary vs. Company. While the nine year old in me really likes the idea of 2:1 odds being even, the practical adult with a real interest in game theory and design sees it as a virtually impossible question of game balance, especially if you factor in things like clantech salvage, close terrain (which favors the enemy with greater concentration of firepower), matchmaking, ingame economy, character exp/advancement, population imbalance, persistent meta-game strategy, mech customization, and individual player frustration vs. team to team balance.

Furthermore, as a player of a clan faction, I am tired, so tired, of being yelled at. Anyone who has played the clans for any duration knows the feeling of disdain and disgust you have to endure for playing the "kiddie mechs." So many battletech games stagnate between 3025-3039 just because a large body of players don't like Clan tech and what it does to game balance. Never mind that the Clans add an interesting story element that has factored into the battletech universe almost since its inception, but even here, declaring you're a Clan player attracts a deep ire that, frankly, many of us have grown tired of.

I would rather pilot a balanced 'Mech for my faction out of loyalty, rather than endure another round of that. I don't want to have to qualify in a top bracket of a ranking ladder to represent the side of the conflict that I take an interest in. I don't want to suffer from onerous honor rules to rock it out in a Kit Fox, without having to salvage it in a random drop from an NPC faction that I just wish I could play.

None of that would be worth a statistical advantage to me.

Edit - Furthermore, I don't want the vast bulk of my faction's players to be there for the BFG's.

Edited by GreyGriffin, 18 November 2011 - 01:24 AM.

[Aaron DeChavilier]

but without a rework of clan tech, that is what you're going to get.
As I got someone else to admit in another clan thread, they're
only here for the BFGs and don't care for story. I think the clans
were a good injection of new lore into the universe if a bit wonky
and ill-exectued (specially TT technology)

I would hope that as all franchies get consistent updates, certain
long standing issues would finally be addressed by fresh perspective
and thinking. My stance will always be (as i quote myself [lol])

"I don’t think clan tech should be equal, but neither will I admit that the status quo(clan tech) is acceptable for any sort game
So I got one person to admit they play clan for the toys; anyone else going to confess
But seriously, there’s ‘New and Different’ and then there’s ‘Bad Game Design’
Clan tech as it sits now, tilts towards ‘Bad Game Design’

[dm5k]

GreyGriffin, on 18 November 2011 - 12:15 AM, said:

Frankly? Yes.

The worst imbalance I would really see as playable would be Binary vs. Company. While the nine year old in me really likes the idea of 2:1 odds being even, the practical adult with a real interest in game theory and design sees it as a virtually impossible question of game balance, especially if you factor in things like clantech salvage, close terrain (which favors the enemy with greater concentration of firepower), matchmaking, ingame economy, character exp/advancement, population imbalance, persistent meta-game strategy, mech customization, and individual player frustration vs. team to team balance.

Furthermore, as a player of a clan faction, I am tired, so tired, of being yelled at. Anyone who has played the clans for any duration knows the feeling of disdain and disgust you have to endure for playing the "kiddie mechs." So many battletech games stagnate between 3025-3039 just because a large body of players don't like Clan tech and what it does to game balance. Never mind that the Clans add an interesting story element that has factored into the battletech universe almost since its inception, but even here, declaring you're a Clan player attracts a deep ire that, frankly, many of us have grown tired of.

I would rather pilot a balanced 'Mech for my faction out of loyalty, rather than endure another round of that. I don't want to have to qualify in a top bracket of a ranking ladder to represent the side of the conflict that I take an interest in. I don't want to suffer from onerous honor rules to rock it out in a Kit Fox, without having to salvage it in a random drop from an NPC faction that I just wish I could play.

None of that would be worth a statistical advantage to me.

Edit - Furthermore, I don't want the vast bulk of my faction's players to be there for the BFG's.

I totally agree. Call me twisted but I have always liked the "bad guys" in fiction, my favorite factions being WOB, Liao, and my favorite clan being the most violent, Clan Smoke Jaguar. I have to admit that I much prefer Clan Smoke Jaguar over other clans for their preference for powerful weapons and heavy/assault mechs. BUT I would rather see clan tech being balanced to the point where there are harsh downsides for using their equipment (more heat, extremely high costs, longer cool down of weapons, fewer clan mechs allowed in play, etc.). So as other people have said, not everyone jumps on the BFG band wagon. I will be happy sitting in my Hunchback IIC knowing that I am in a balanced match against Inner Sphere foes.

[Cyber Carns]

Not sure if anyone has brought this up in regards to Zellbringen. Clan vs Clan zellbringen will work because both use that form of ritual combat. Now Clan vs IS, Zellbringen will not work because IS does not fight that way. You can say to balance out the fights between Clan and IS is 5 vs 8 or what ever number you use, as soon as 2 IS Mechs attack one Clan Mech, Zellbringen is over and the Clan group can do team work to take out the inferior and dezgra IS mechwarriors for not following Zellbringen. Zellbringen only works if both side agree to fight that way, Mech vs Mech even numbers, other wise its a moot point.

Here is the info for how Zellbringen works from: http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Zellbrigen

Overview
Zellbrigen is ritualistic form of honor dueling practiced by the Warrior Caste of the Clans.^[1][2]
[edit]History
The practice of engaging opponents in single combat, the genesis of what would later become zellbrigen, was first started by Clan Coyote during the Operation Klondike.^[3] Despite the losses incurred by this fighting method, Coyote's Khan Dana Kufahlwould continue to encourage her Clan and others to practice this "honorable" form of warfare. Eventually the practice would be taken up by all of the Clans, to a greater or lesser degree, in part as a way to minimize losses in both lives and resources.^[1][2]This is especially true when opposing commanders agreed to a duel to determine a battle's outcome.
During the Clan Invasion the rules of zellbrigen lapsed, primarily because the Inner Sphere had no concept of Clan cultural norms and, in some cases, exploited them for "underhanded" victories. By the end of the campaign zellbrigen had all but died out in several Clans, while most still reserve it for inter-Clan confrontations or against worthy Inner Sphere warriors.^[1][2]
[edit]Rules
The proscriptions of zellbrigen consist of the following rules:
§ Each warrior will issue a challenge to a different enemy. If one side outnumbers the other, then the extra warriors on that side will stand aside until one of their comrades falls in battle. A warrior can challenge more than one unit at a time.^[4]
§ A warrior has right to refuse challenges from Inner Sphere units, especially if underhanded ploys are suspected.^[4]
§ A warrior has the right to refuse a challenge from an unit of differing weight class if other unengaged units are available.^[4]
§ No artillery or other Area-Effect Weapons shall be employed by either side.^[4]
§ Intentionally moving out of the line of sight of the opponent is prohibited.^[4]
§ Systems that requires multiple units to operate, like C3 and TAG, are forbidden.^[4]
§ Moving out of weapon range is prohibited.^[4]
§ Failure to fire a weapon when possible is prohibited.^[4]
A warrior is also expected to not retreat from inferior foes, or to engage his opponent in melee combat, though these are not part of the formal rules of zellbrigen.^[4] Also, though it plays a central role in Clans' combat challenges, the ritual of batchallremains a separate tradition.
[edit]Interpretation
How zellbrigen is interpreted depends not only on the individual, but their parent Clan as a whole. At one end of the spectrum, the rules are strictly followed, the only exception being when fighting bandits, pirates or the most hated of enemies. At the opposite end, zellbrigen is figuratively "thrown out the airlock" and used only against other Clan warriors, and even then only when there is an advantage over them. In between are varying levels of adherence; for example, zellbrigen is followed unless circumstances dictated otherwise, such as being outnumbered or thinking one could get away with breaking it.^[4]
Prior to the Clan Invasion, Clan Blood Spirit, Clan Coyote, Clan Ghost Bear, Clan Goliath Scorpion, Clan Jade Falcon, Clan Star Adder and Clan Steel Viper adhered strictly to the tenants of zellbrigen. Meanwhile Clan Cloud Cobra, Clan Hell's Horses, Clan Ice Hellion, Clan Nova Cat and Clan Snow Raven were more opportunistic in their interpretation. Only Clan Diamond Shark and Clan Wolf used a liberal interpretation of zellbrigen in their conflicts with the other Clans.^[4]
After their defeat at the Battle of Tukayyid, many of the Clans began to rethink their use of these honor rules, and a number of political, military and cultural changes took place. The Blood Spirits, Jade Falcons and Star Adders became more opportunistic, while the Ghost Bears became more liberal, in the use of zellbrigen. The schism within Clan Wolf resulted in its new Crusader-minded leadership to become slightly more conservative, while Clan Wolf-in-Exile maintain a flexible definition of zellbrigen.^[4]
Clan Fire Mandrill, by their fractious nature, defy any sort of labeling, with each Kindraa having their own individual understandings of zellbrigen.^[4]
[edit]References

1. ↑ ^{1.0 1.1 1.2} Field Manual: Warden Clans, p.17

2. ↑ ^{2.0 2.1 2.2} Field Manual:Crusader Clans, p.15

3. ↑ Field Manual: Warden Clans, p. 40

4. ↑ ^{4.00 4.01 4.02 4.03 4.04 4.05 4.06 4.07 4.08 4.09 4.10 4.11 4.12} Total Warfare, p. 275

[edit]Bibliography
§ Field Manual: Crusader Clans
§ Field Manual: Warden Clans
§ Total Warfare

Edited by Cyber Carns, 24 November 2011 - 06:57 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

GreyGriffin, I like that you are trying to "level the playing field" but as a Steiner supporter, I have to say you are going about it the wrong way.

Frankly, the only saving grace for the Mailed Fist should be the Clanners fighting in the Clan tradition. I realize we are supposed to have fun playing the game, but frankly, if you choose a Spheroid faction (as I have) you should be ready to get your posterior handed to you often, for a couple years!

The Clans are supposed to be the big scary boogieman! If we take away Shock and Awe then I might as well be fighting the Cappies or House Marik.

[Darion Rothgarr]

Whos going to Fix your Clantech when it breaks? How do you service that Clantech Ultra AC 5? Calibrate the Crystals on your clantech Medium Pulse Lasers?

Better yet Fragile.

[Gremlich Johns]

How about no access to clan tech unless you come into contact with it.

In the NBT planetary leagues, you didn't get to just use the other side's tech unless it was awarded to you through salvage or theft (as determined by the league automation). Also, you could not produce the tech (this means mech chassis) without having acquired over 30 or more examples of the chassis. Making the clan tech harder to use (after it finally appears in the game timeline) and acquire in the initial version of the game will necessitate a much more skilled player. The noobs that need it "NOW" will just have to wait until they get better. And if there is Clan tech available, then, until the invasion, the only place it should be found is on Clan only servers.

A well-conceived and run Planetary League based on MWO will obviate most of the issues with tech, however.

(at a given point in the game timeline, the IS should be able to produce their own OMNI-tech.)

[GreyGriffin]

Gremlich Johns, on 04 December 2011 - 10:32 AM, said:

How about no access to clan tech unless you come into contact with it.

This begs the question of what to do when you are playing a clan avatar.

[Kodiak Jorgensson]

like the ideas for the weapons except for the pulse lasers, mainly because its a pulse lasers its suppsoed to pulse. personaly i dont think a continious beam laser would solve much. dpeneding on how a mechs movement system in MWO they may be quite in accracte. if anything i think increaseing the interval between shots would be better dont forget pulse lasers have stupid ammounts of heat generation and the only diffrence between CPL I.S PL is that CPL have 5-10 more points of range and weight 1 ton less. just my thaughts is all

[Volt]

I wish they started out much earlier than 3048, playing in 3015 as a Merc in the succession wars would really give players time to level themselves up for when the Clans eventually arrive. Then again, if you're a lowly merc you don't get contracted to fight the big bad periphery invaders that seem to eat up and spit out the ELITE of the inner sphere. This gives IS players a chance to really get immersed in IS vs IS warfare before they even get the chance to dream about knocking off that clan mech arm with the beautiful PPC salvage.
As for buying clantech in the black market, yeah sure, as long as someone is willing to part with potential spare parts for their own rigs in exchange for tons of money. Of course this becomes viable if you actually prefer Spheretech to Clantech. So things brings in the problem of lances farming clantech for cash. Well, maybe not too much if 1) Clans were REALLY so hard to beat in the 50's, 2) the farmers actually get dispossessed (start from the ground up gain, except for the cash in bank, and inventory) if they happen to get shot out and not made into bondsmen. Of course they only become bondsmen if their codex (achievements, skill, etc) meet Clan standards. So yes, maybe Clan play becomes accessible to elite players (not necessarily the ones with the biggest pockets or most hours logged, but ratios such as kills per deaths, hits per kill or kills per hit, accuracy, or what not).
On the other end of the spectrum, starting out as Clans is not necessarily better because you have to play on equal footing on Clan standards. So honor (achievements again?) plays an important part of what missions become open to you (front line vs solhama) or if you even become a warrior at all (trial of position). Remember, you can only progress as a warrior if you show merit, and if your codex proves you honorable. Meaning, taking active hits on your honor (ganging up, etc) should not be easily erasable by farming honor points, there should be a negative achievement tally that can taint a Clan warrior (for IS the merc reputation) for the rest of his days until and unless there comes a rare opportunity to erase said taint (special achievement? a special achievement while not having a bad taint grants ristar status). Now, this means that only the best and brightest of the Clan can actually face the IS on cool (Clanwise) missions, while the rest only play against bandits on *yawn* missions or against fellow second-line (but comparable to your typical IS) players until they merit enough honor to be promoted or until they die of old age or run off to become bandits. This would reinforce the skill of the Clan players (not just your average 12-year old rich kid, but hey, sometimes rotten apples get mixed in, too just like in fluff). Add that to their tech advantage, but offset with low numbers and restrictions set by their codex (achievements, taints) and they HAVE to fight like "real" Clansmen, else they get demoted back to solhama or whatnot. The details would need fleshing out but I hope you get my meaning. I'd like to be able to relive being a merc even though I've always been a Clan at heart (the polar game styles appeal to me).

[MrHumble]

Just a thought, but maybe make the game more 'mech-like'...as in:
- Just because your crosshairs are over the target, those barrels attached to the end of your mech's arms (which are about 4-6 meters away from your seat) may not be just as aligned...ergo...some scatter...even with lasers...

...just try shooting a target (in real life) with a scoped rifle at 300m....pretty rare to hit where the cross-hairs line up.

Having played in nbt and whatnot....playing by clan rules is the exception, not the rule. People play the game to have fun first, everything else second.

Having also played the tabletop version...there's this thing called "Gunnery Skill"...maybe something that can be simulated by reducing the 'scatter effect' by little bits every dozen or so mechs put down.

The other option is simply to just let the IS pilots eject from their mechs if they don't think they can handle taking on clan mechs.

[EDMW CSN]

Follow strictly by BV.

5 Timber Wolf Prime is about the same as 10 MAD-3R Marauders.
Tada issue resolved.

[Cyber Carns]

GreyGriffin, on 18 November 2011 - 12:15 AM, said:

Frankly? Yes.

The worst imbalance I would really see as playable would be Binary vs. Company. While the nine year old in me really likes the idea of 2:1 odds being even, the practical adult with a real interest in game theory and design sees it as a virtually impossible question of game balance, especially if you factor in things like clantech salvage, close terrain (which favors the enemy with greater concentration of firepower), matchmaking, ingame economy, character exp/advancement, population imbalance, persistent meta-game strategy, mech customization, and individual player frustration vs. team to team balance.

Furthermore, as a player of a clan faction, I am tired, so tired, of being yelled at. Anyone who has played the clans for any duration knows the feeling of disdain and disgust you have to endure for playing the "kiddie mechs." So many battletech games stagnate between 3025-3039 just because a large body of players don't like Clan tech and what it does to game balance. Never mind that the Clans add an interesting story element that has factored into the battletech universe almost since its inception, but even here, declaring you're a Clan player attracts a deep ire that, frankly, many of us have grown tired of.

I would rather pilot a balanced 'Mech for my faction out of loyalty, rather than endure another round of that. I don't want to have to qualify in a top bracket of a ranking ladder to represent the side of the conflict that I take an interest in. I don't want to suffer from onerous honor rules to rock it out in a Kit Fox, without having to salvage it in a random drop from an NPC faction that I just wish I could play.

None of that would be worth a statistical advantage to me.

Edit - Furthermore, I don't want the vast bulk of my faction's players to be there for the BFG's.

Very well put, one of the best ways to explain my love for the clans, has nothing to do with having the BFG, its the lore and history and since I have played Clan side since the begining of my meching career I will always be a clanner at heart. Very well put Brother

[Outlaw]

A drastic approach could be this, make the range and damage of the weapons on par with their IS opponents, while maintaining the weight/crit advantage that they already posses. This will still allow clan machines to be better than IS machines, but not game breakingly so. A change along these lines is going to be required or else instead of the arms race to get into an assault mech, you will have to deal with the arms race to get as much Clan tech as possible.

[Kodiak Jorgensson]

MrHumble, on 04 December 2011 - 07:13 PM, said:

Just a thought, but maybe make the game more 'mech-like'...as in:
- Just because your crosshairs are over the target, those barrels attached to the end of your mech's arms (which are about 4-6 meters away from your seat) may not be just as aligned...ergo...some scatter...even with lasers...

...just try shooting a target (in real life) with a scoped rifle at 300m....pretty rare to hit where the cross-hairs line up.

Having played in nbt and whatnot....playing by clan rules is the exception, not the rule. People play the game to have fun first, everything else second.

Having also played the tabletop version...there's this thing called "Gunnery Skill"...maybe something that can be simulated by reducing the 'scatter effect' by little bits every dozen or so mechs put down.

The other option is simply to just let the IS pilots eject from their mechs if they don't think they can handle taking on clan mechs.

probably have a blance thread soon too

Outlaw, on 04 December 2011 - 08:17 PM, said:

A drastic approach could be this, make the range and damage of the weapons on par with their IS opponents, while maintaining the weight/crit advantage that they already posses. This will still allow clan machines to be better than IS machines, but not game breakingly so. A change along these lines is going to be required or else instead of the arms race to get into an assault mech, you will have to deal with the arms race to get as much Clan tech as possible.

its what MWLL did (great mod btw) but its boring haveing the same weapons thats just got a fancy "C" prefix added to my knowledgeas far as damage values go, theres only really the lasers that have 2 points more damage (5 points more range roughly) over I.S counter parts, LRMs do 1 point damage per missles (same for SRM SSRM only 2 points per missle", regardless of which army is came from, same goes for autocannons.

these threads keep popping up and really its getting old and annoying to me, its looking more and more like people are getting lazy and dont want a challenge in takeing something bigger and better down.

[hoax]

As a player that identifies himself as a Clan player, I think we need to keep one thing in focus. This game HAS to be both accessible to newcomers and deep enough for the hardcore BT fan. I feel like the Mechwarrior series is on it's last leg as a whole. If any of us want to ever see another release that can manage to make it out of development/litigation hell, this free-to-play game NEEDS to succeed. I hope the developers bust their ***** to make sure the IS gameplay when the game launches is polished and balanced. That is what needs to happen first and foremost. And I think all of us "Clanners" that are big fans of the game should want to see that come about first. They have a year to figure out how to integrate Clantech and Clan play into the game. But for the love of all that is sacred, get the core of the game right.

[Kami Shinigami]

I will start off by saying that I have been both a player of the tabletop as well as the computer games for over 20 years, and am a Trueborn Clan Warrior at heart.

I like some of what I have read over the past 5 pages. I dislike most of the dezgra filth that has been posted.

For starters, BV2, while being one of the more balanced methods they came up with, is still horribly broken. It does not work. It is simply the best current choice of several evils. Hopefully the new system they are coming up with now will be much better (there is another thread addressing this subject elsewhere).

I think the idea of having the clan factions open, but only the best X% able to participate in IS vs Clan conquest matches, is a very good idea. I also think that everyone should be required to play a certain number of games as IS before having the option to move over to an Invading Clan faction (no point having more than those available, at first being only the initial 4 - Clan Jade Falcon, Clan Wolf, Clan Ghost Bear, and Clan Smoke Jaguar).

Something else that has been brought up, but not given enough weight in my opinion, is that of the "role" aspect. Commander, Scout, Brawler, and whatever other roles they may or may not use, that will end up being the focus of development, not just weight or point value. They may even restrict 'Mech designs based on those roles (for example, why would you put a Commander in a Locust?). I have a feeling that a lot of the game balance will come from these roles, rather than some sort of point system. Also based on this, I am hoping to see more "objective based" focus, with Deathmatch style being a sidenote, if in there at all.

[Kudzu]

Kami Shinigami, on 06 December 2011 - 08:24 AM, said:

For starters, BV2, while being one of the more balanced methods they came up with, is still horribly broken. It does not work. It is simply the best current choice of several evils. Hopefully the new system they are coming up with now will be much better (there is another thread addressing this subject elsewhere).

It works well enough considering the complexity of the it's trying to balance. It really doesn't start falling apart until you hit the Jihad era.

Quote

They may even restrict 'Mech designs based on those roles (for example, why would you put a Commander in a Locust?).

Aletha Kabrinski is the saKhan of the Ghost Bears, she is known for piloting a Fire Moth.

[Xhaleon]

Kudzu, on 06 December 2011 - 12:16 PM, said:

It works well enough considering the complexity of the it's trying to balance. It really doesn't start falling apart until you hit the Jihad era.

I get the feeling that the devs might use a beta test to tweak the BV costs of each mech. Any bit of customization might throw that out the window, but if we go with mostly stock mechs for the most part they can figure out a very specific BV for each machine, rather than BV per piece of equipment.

Kudzu, on 06 December 2011 - 12:16 PM, said:

Aletha Kabrinski is the saKhan of the Ghost Bears, she is known for piloting a Fire Moth.

Crazy women. Extra crazy because Clan.

After checking Sarna; crazy, but pretty hot, and I don't mean Configuration D.