103 replies to this topic

[GreyGriffin]

I think people need to be more realistic here. Insisting that the game abide by the rules of tabletop religiously will just result in your opinions being discarded by developers who, frankly, have to be more thoughtful and open about the game they are creating. Clan Technology simply can't be exported wholesale from the tabletop game, because it would create an environment that was too asymmetric. Just off the top of my head, imagine where clans can only fight 5v12 vs Inner Sphere pilots. What do you do with a player base with a 50/50 population split? Suddenly, games with Clan players outnumber pure IS games by an almost 3:1 ratio. Clan players play vs. clan twice as often, and in a random matchmaker, IS players will virtually never play against each other.

And that's just off the top of my head.

The best solution is to make Clan technology distinct but balanced. Clan tech should not be categorically better, it should reflect a different style of play, that can be better if it matches your play style. This will make a more balanced and less frustrating experience, and, more importantly, a playable, accessible game that might have fans outside the hardest of hardcore simmers.

Insisting on a pure translation simply isn't practical, and railing against change will just result in extreme opinions being ignored. Here, in the game's embryonic stages, we have an in. We have a chance to express ourselves and explore the possibilities and discuss in the sight of the people who are making this game with their own two hands. We can use this opportunity to bring up good ideas, and maybe lend our insight and, in what small way we can, direct the game on a course we all want.

I want to play the Clans. I have always had an affinity for the Clans, and even though my Clan of choice won't make an appearance until circa 2033 at 1:1 real time, I want to try and bring up ways that the clans can be playable, without either the Jedi syndrome of early Star Wars Galaxies, or just ending up as palate swapped IS mechs.

In order to do that, though, we, as players of Mechwarrior games and Battletech fanatics, have to understand that there has to be compromise. A Free-to-Play, massively multiplayer online action game simply can't be 3d megamek. It's just not realistic. It behooves us, as players of Battletech and players of computer games, to try to be realistic about game balance.

[Captain Hat]

I agree 100% with GreyGriffin, with the added proviso that it won't be a 50/50 split as more people will play Clan 'mechs than IS if the Clan tech is actually that much more powerful.

The trees need to be balanced, and if we're slavishly devoted to the existing canon that won't happen for several years: There needs to be a proactive effort to prevent imbalance on a Mech-for-Mech basis here. The only real question is, how should it be done?

My personal vote would probably actually be more along the lines of making Clan 'tech more volatile, more prone to damage and perhaps even less reliable.

For example, you could make Clan FF armour more brittle- harder to damage initially, maybe, but as it starts taking damage its effectiveness declines sharply, leaving the components behind susceptible. High-powered Clan energy weapons might explode more violently than their IS counterparts, and be more prone to detonation to start with. The densely-packed ammo feeds for a Clan Ultra AC might cause the weapon to jam occasionally, and when the weapon is hit make the rounds in the feed and the chamber more likely to detonate (and with more rounds there, they will do so more forcefully).

I do believe that Clan 'mechs should be fast and dangerous, but such things always come at a price- high speed puts a lot of stress on a frame, and any high-energy weapon will be more dangerous to its user as well as to the enemy.

Even looking at the lore, Clan 'mechs tend to have a different reputation when compared like-for-like with IS ones. The Atlas is famed, even more than for its firepower, for its ability to take a frankly crazy amount of punishment. The Daishi/Dire Wolf's main feature in response is its heavy weaponry and relatively high top speed.

The Mad Cat/Timber Wolf, an iconic Clan design, is horribly beweaponed and devastatingly quick: But it carries less armour than most IS 'mechs in the 75 ton bracket. The Vulture/Mad Dog is often seen as a rough Clan analogue to the Catapult, which again is bigger, slower and tougher but less heavily armed. If we extend that potential fragility to other aspects of Clan designs, I think we can probably find a solution that is both fairly consistent with the existing lore and balanced in-game. As a sidenote, glass cannons tend to play better with more skilled pilots/gunners, while the damage tank is a very different play-style, dependant more on patience and tactical awareness than individual skill- which seems to me to fit the differing images of Clan and IS MechWarriors quite well, actually.

What say you, gents? Does the idea of a Clan 'mech becoming a high-speed glass cannon offend?

[Amechwarrior]

Riptor, on 14 November 2011 - 09:09 PM, said:

If they are kept from engaging the game because some other clan unit outbid them then youre doing it wrong as a developer that wants to sell a product.
...
And limiting a players ability to play games in his fave mech cause his mech has a to high BV value is again counterproductive for selling a product.
...
And last but not least we will have simple team deathmatch and free for all deathmatch modes that have no bearing on any background whatsoever and are more akin to solaris matches.
...
And this is a very important point that many people around here seem to forget since everyone is so focused on the conquest mode.

I replied to most of these points in the other thread. Unfortunately, I read and replied to that one first before I checked Suggestions. The jist was, full powered Clans balanced by mandatory in game mechanics forces IS and Clan players to play like their factions of they want to win. "A IS victory would take great teamwork, a Clan victory would take great personal skill. This personifies each factions philosophy to the T."

As for bidding and BV. You are precisely right on both points. I do not like the bidding system, but instead of saying I do not like it, I posed a possible solution for it. You are correct that pulling players away from the meat of the game is a bad idea.

Pulling a player from his favorite design is also a bad idea. Which is one of the reasons I am with you on the BV balancing act. I do not think we need an arbitrary value number assigned to the 'mechs. Role-based gameplay will be the focus. BV to me ends up being utilized like the tiers everyone hates in the WoT threads. I see things like "No brah, you have to have a 2000-2500 point 'mech in here to join our match!" or matchmaking split by BV ranges. 10,000-14,999 matches, 15,000-19,999 matches, tier 3 matches, tier 4 matches, similar concept different names.

If 'mechs/variants and most importantly roles are done right, if you need a commander role and someone steps in "Commander Looking for Group! Cyclops" you should not think "Naw, forget him, lets wait for the Atlas players to LFG..." BV was built around smashing 'mechs into each other. The role based gameplay will change how we play the game, hopefully to the point were the exact variant you drive will not matter as much as the role you play on the field. Yes some 'mechs will be better at blowing things up then others of their tonnage. But you know what they become, Brawlers - Offensive or Defensive roles and balance them so no one model in that tonnage is miles better then the rest in the same role. Other designs become Commanders or even scouts (Charger I am looking at you). Some kind of BV system might be inevitable, but I do not like how it will encourage tiers of play.

As for deathmatch, yea we all left that in the dust, me included. We are a more hardcore, no respawn, no mechbay you die and have to buy a new 'mech kind of crowd. The majority of diehards here are not deathmatches core audience. The answer for Clan/IS for-for-all deathmatch is this. Do not let it happen.

Yes, I said that. I am serious too. A good amount of you are reading this and thinking I have lost my mind more then normal. Remember, I posted how the Clans should not be "just another faction" new players join because they like the Wolfy headed logo thingy vs that blue fisty logo or that reject mortal combat dragon logo. Clans are not part of the main game, will not even be an enemy for a year. The focus is the Inner Sphere and probably being a Merc over the Houses. Clans should be "endgame content" or "hardcore mode" something a little more challenging then normal play. It must be something a player chooses to do over playing the normal game, they must be informed before being able to pick the Clans.

Your next thought is - But you just said "Pulling a player from his favorite design is also a bad idea." Well look at who the Clan fanboys are and why Clans stuff is their favorite. To stereotype you have two main types: The whiny powergamer who likes it because it is easy and the Lore based fan. Lore based fans will jump through fire for the Battletech universe. Tell them Clans have to play be Clan rules and they will be "Yea, that makes sense..." that is the easy sell. The other types are the powergamers. Min/Maxers, cheap shots, teamkillers and so on. They do not like the Clans because of who they are, they like them because they come with a win button. Take away that easy win button with gameplay balance and informing them that the clans are hard to play as and the Inner Sphere play becomes an easier sell. This also addresses faction populations, the average non lore player should not want to play as the Clans.

[Captain Hat]

That's nice and all, but 'mechs fulfilling specific roles aside if the guys at Piranha have any sense at all that's the exact opposite of what they will actually do.

What you describe is an ideal world, where everyone is a BTech fan and you can make the perfect MechWarrior game because people will play it regardless of the difficulty curve or how easy it is to get into their favourite mech or any one of a hojillion other factors that affect such things (like the fact that CoD exists, etc). It's a very nice world, and I must confess I would enjoy being a part of it. It would be great to be a Davion field commander in that world, leading a risky incursion into Clan space or defending the Inner Sphere from the alien marauders and their frighteningly advanced technology. I will state for the record that I like your idea.

The problem is, it won't work.

The main objective for this game, first and foremost, is to be commercially successful. Because if it isn't, we won't see another MechWarrior game- regardless of quality- for years. In order for that to happen, the developers need to draw kids away from other games- they need the mass-market appeal of a Mad Cat/Timber Wolf rampaging into combat and blasting things. They need to make these things accessible so that the kids can get into the Mad Cat and tell all their friends how awesome it is.

Your model, awesome as it is, would not just drive the casual player away from the Clans- it would drive a lot of casual players away from the game in its entirety. And casual players are a large part of the F2P model's market.

For that reason, your suggestion is unrealistic in the extreme. It is never going to be a workable proposition to restrict a player's access to the things he wants arbitrarily (which is essentially what most people will think you are doing). The direct upshot of that is that Clan 'tech needs to be balanced on a mech-for-mech basis.

There are a few ways to do that- my solution is outlined above- but the key point is, there is no other way to make the online model work and still have a successful game at the end of the day.

[Riptor]

Quote

If I challenged you to a duel and your an IS player, Im stuck attacking you. I don't have the option to attack anyone else even if they are right in my face unloading an a/c20.

Are you sure about zellbriggen? I think i remember that as soon as an enemy fired onto someone that was not his choosen target (mostly IS doing this sort of thing since they usually get murdered in 1 on 1) he or she was fair game for anyone else and the duel rules went out the window.

If i remember correctly Sun-tzu doing that to Davion during their simulator training by the Wolfs Dragoons and then claiming his daishi had some system failure ejecting after alpha striking Davions oponent.. leaving Davion to deal with two enemys at once. (sorry for not remembering all the correct names.. it has been some time since i read those books)

Also i have seen some pretty mind boogling matchmaker shenanigans in WoT.. so lets say im skeptical about matchmakers doing the right thing... XD

So yeah i hope they manage to program a fair one.

Also about the Dragon vs Cougar example i gave.

The Dragon is armed with an AC/5, Lrm 10 and two medium lasers (one that points backwards) against the cougars two Clan large pulse lasers and 2 LRM-10s. Wich allows him to strip a maximum of 40 points at once from its enemy while the dragon has a theoretical maximum damage potential of 25... and even that is questionable because at long range the mediums are useless and on close range the LRMs are useless reducing his average damage potential to 10 points (15 at long range) since one of the mediums points backwards while the cougar keeps his 40 points at all ranges.

So 15 against 40 at long ranges and 10 vs 40 in close range... i think i can say that the cougar is superior to the dragon despite the heavier armor on the dragon.

The only thing they are even is the speed.. wich really surprised me.. fast ****** that dragon, ill look out for those when the game goes live.

But since their speed is equal it wont be easy to bring the cougar into perfect range

Buuut... i dont know the exact number of heat sinks on both machines.. my guess is that the couger cant keep up a steady barrage of his large pulse lasers while the dragon wont really run hot when using his AC/5 with his lrms or his medium laser (even at only 10 heat sinks). But then the damage gap between those two is still far to great.

EDITH says: Ugh.. quotet the wrong guy at first XD

Edited by Riptor, 15 November 2011 - 05:18 AM.

[Amechwarrior]

Captain Hat, on 15 November 2011 - 03:33 AM, said:

The Mad Cat/Timber Wolf, an iconic Clan design, is horribly beweaponed and devastatingly quick: But it carries less armour than most IS 'mechs in the 75 ton bracket.
...
What say you, gents? Does the idea of a Clan 'mech becoming a high-speed glass cannon offend?

Your posts were posted while I was writing the other reply and did not see it right away.

Actually you cannot be further from the truth on that first statement. The Timber Wolf carries 1 point short of the absolute maximum armor for its weight class. It is in fact the only 3050 Clan heavy 'mech that is not a glass cannon, the Summoner has barely 80% armor. Look at the Hellbringer - 128 points out of a possible 211. Its right torso only has 14 armor, one stock PPC and one medium laser and you are already digging into criticals.

Your glass cannon idea is right, but not in the way you had it, many 3050 Clan designs already were glass cannons. Firemoth 38 out of 69, Mist Lynx 67/89, Kit Fox 77/105, Mad Dog 163/201, Hellbringer 128/211 - most of these have less then 75% armor. You might notice that no mediums or assaults are on this list. That is because the Clans only had 16 designs. Yes, the are omnis, but armor never changes. If you only have 1 100 ton design, you better give it tough armor. The IS has a plethora of designs with different combinations and mixtures of speed, armor and firepower in the same tonnage. Omnimechs cannot change 2 out of 3 of those things.

This is another case of where the original game designers already balanced that out for us. Clan players have no choice in armor and speed for their tonnage. They get one of each tonnage and not even a 90 ton design. They cannot afford to all be bad designs. The Clans do not need to be nerfed, they need to be bound. Bound by Honor.

Captain Hat, on 15 November 2011 - 04:34 AM, said:

What you describe is an ideal world...
...
the developers need to draw kids away from other games- they need the mass-market appeal of a Mad Cat/Timber Wolf rampaging into combat and blasting things.
...
Your model, awesome as it is, would not just drive the casual player away from the Clans- it would drive a lot of casual players away from the game in its entirety.

What your saying is, without the clans, the game will not be profitable due to not getting a Timber Wolf as a pilotable machine.

Welp everyone, we can just stop now. The game cannot be profitable in its first year, and the cost of running this will shut it down before we get to hand out Timber Wolfs like candy. We can ignore the sales of every game after MW3 because they did not have a iconic Clan design on the cover.

If you make this case, you are saying this game cannot survive its first year with no Clan play. That is what it boils down to. I think the game would do fine without the Clans at all, heck it was their original idea to exclude the Clans in the original concept. While the Timber Wolf does have "some" brand recognition, that brand is now ten years old and rusted from a marketing point of view. How many adds for MW or CBT did you see in any big gaming media in the past 6 years? I bet I could show a picture of an Uziel to the people who played MW4 or MA when they were 10 and tell them it is a "Mad Cat" and they would believe me. They have not though about it in a decade.

I remember when the Timber Wolf was not the face of Mechwarrior or Battletech. The icon change with the times, by lawsuit or by shifts in fanbase. The developers intention showed this was possible, they did not mention "lack of brand name 'mechs" as the reason publishers dropped it because right now, Battletech on PC/consle has no offical brand recognition with todays 18-25 year old casual player. This casual new gamer you mention has no clue what any of this is. You can expect a gamer to know of CoD, Master Chief, WoW, Ezio, Mario. You know, games he has actually played after he hit puberty, he does not care for the Timber Wolf or any other design.

Casuals will be the life blood of this game, but as I have posted above, casuals do not care or know about mechwarriors or Timber Wolfs. You know who does? The Twenty thousand people who have already signed up for this game with no Clan play.

[Riptor]

Quote

The Clans do not need to be nerfed, they need to be bound. Bound by Honor.

Here we go again... it was explained countless times how honor rules would not work in a balancing manner, how honor rules really are no drawback to clanners in a match based game system and how honor rules do not function in free for all deathmatch or team deathmatch that have absolutely no connection to any storyline or even in conquest mode whatsofreakingever.

Quote

This casual new gamer you mention has no clue what any of this is. You can expect a gamer to know of CoD, Master Chief, WoW, Ezio, Mario. You know, games he has actually played after he hit puberty, he does not care for the Timber Wolf or any other design.

And thats why they wont give a flying **** about some abritrary honor rules. And just because they dont know the lore of the game does not mean they do not understand that clan weapons are immensely more powerfull then their IS counterpart... doesnt take a gaming genius to put 2 and 2 together.

They see that clantech is better then the IS junk and will go for it, now you have 20000 IS players against what? 40000 clan players? 60000 clan players?

Yeah.. have fun with that.

[Amechwarrior]

Riptor, on 15 November 2011 - 05:06 AM, said:

Are you sure about zellbriggen? I think i remember that as soon as an enemy fired onto someone that was not his choosen target (mostly IS doing this sort of thing since they usually get murdered in 1 on 1) he or she was fair game for anyone else and the duel rules went out the window.

Yes, that makes sense for Clan on Clan, but on our system, modified for the dickery of human video game players, the 2nd IS 'mech must be designated as a dueling combatant by the Clan pilot before he can Honorably return fire. If he does, he is now in a 2 on 1, Honorable X on 1 must be in the hands of the Clan pilot. He must make the call if his skill and firepower is enough to take then two of them down, for his Starmates will not shoot at his target because they would lose Honor Points. The dueling rules are never turned off. If that second 'mech is already "in a duel" with another Clan Starmate, the first clanner has no choice but to take it up the tail pipe. This forces Clan players to work as a team to cut down IS players individually before any individual clanner is in a 6 on 1 dual or generally ganged by all the other IS pilots. This is essential to allows IS players to exploit the Honor system, and it is essential that Clan designs operate at full power.

[Riptor]

Okay but what if the IS pilot that fired on him was allready called out by another clanner?

Are both clanners allowed to return fire?

And really expecting a clanner to make an official duel demand while under fire by an assailant doesnt make any sense to me... you get attacked you get to fire back...

This would aggitate alot of possible paying customers so again i do not think Piranha would go this route. They cant afford to **** of anyone if they want to be a commercial success and revive the franchise

[Amechwarrior]

Riptor, on 15 November 2011 - 06:11 AM, said:

Okay but what if the IS pilot that fired on him was allready called out by another clanner?

Are both clanners allowed to return fire?

No, I underlined this area.
"If that second 'mech is already "in a duel" with another Clan Starmate, the first clanner has no choice but to take it up the tail pipe."
It is the responsibility of the Clanner who called that 2nd 'mech his target. The first Clanner must rely on his pal to kill it before both the IS 'mechs kill him. This encourages teamwork in Clan play that is missing from the normal dueling rules. A strict TT ruleset would result in lonewolfing and kill stealing. The system should be made to where in no situation should 2 Clanners team up on one target without massive penalty.

Riptor, on 15 November 2011 - 06:11 AM, said:

This would aggitate alot of possible paying customers so again i do not think Piranha would go this route. They cant afford to **** of anyone if they want to be a commercial success and revive the franchise

This is also the same as saying "The game cannot succeed without Clan play." We will not have to deal with the Clans for a year. IS gameplay will be the only gameplay. One year in gaming is a very, very long time. MWOs gameplay will be IS role based, team driven gameplay. What little we do know, we know that much. MWO will live and die on IS based gameplay. Again, this is mwomercs.com not mwoclans.com or madcats.com

When and if the Clans come in as playable, to prevent the exodus on the scale of... the exodus to Clan factions, you must make it a hard choice, leave your hearty team of lost souls you have been traveling around the Sphere with for a year. You lose your preferred style of team based play and hall of Battlemechs stretching from here to Solaris7 to become the low ranking, harsh rule obeying, high stakes Clan Mechwarrior. For new players, like I said before, make it not accessible until they know how the game works and invested some time in it. You do not bring in lvl 30 players into endgame raids in WoW, you do not try and slay a giant at level 3 in Skyrim, you do not let new players skip the meat of your game. That meat is Inner Sphere role based team play. Playable Clans are just icing on the cake.

[Frantic Pryde]

Riptor, on 15 November 2011 - 06:06 AM, said:

They see that clantech is better then the IS junk and will go for it, now you have 20000 IS players against what? 40000 clan players? 60000 clan players?

Yeah.. have fun with that.

Which is exactly why I think a lot of the clan fluff needs to be somehow implemented. The pilot advancement tree and payout for clan players should be different from IS players and definitely more restrictive. IS players should still have access to clan tech. If johny b. Noob comes around and sees that the clans are kinda restrictive to play but get nice toys from the start he might say nah..I'll play IS instead and grind or cash shop that war hawk so I can play as dirty and cheesy as I want. I sincerely doubt he's going to turn around running and screaming how awful this game is because he has to follow weird rules to play an optional faction.

And I'll say it again... In all of the previous Mechwarrior games I have never seen a real balance issue. Its really more of tabletop thing where clans get a real edge just because of how those mechanics work. When you translate that to a simulator type game it becomes less of an advantage. Speed doesn't become as great a factor as it is in the tabletop where you can stack major modifiers for moving quickly. Range is also not as much of a factor. In the tabletop you have range brackets for individual weapons. So hitting with a small laser at 100meters is like trying to hit with a gauss rifle at 1000meters. That simply doesn't translate into the sim games. Hitting something farther is always going tombe harder...but in MW games firing your clan er large laser and your is medium laser at 300meters is going to be exactly the same.

The real advantage the clans will have is more powerful weapons and more of them. But for the most part, if you stick with cannon designs that's not a major issue since most clan mechs sacrifice all that pod space for bigger engines.

[Riptor]

Making it harder for a clan pilot to advance will not change the fact that their equipment is superior.

It might take a clanner one more month till he has the pilot build he desires but at the end of the day he will be superior compared to an an IS player... not because the clanner is a better player but because he has the better guns.

Thats like saying a guy with a musket is equal with a modern day G.I using as assault rifle.. because thats what it is.

All this would lead to is clanners maybe having some trouble in the beginning but dominating the endgame (for lack of better terms)

Quote

And I'll say it again... In all of the previous Mechwarrior games I have never seen a real balance issue. Its really more of tabletop thing where clans get a real edge just because of how those mechanics work

Clanners dominate the online play on MW4 for example, and the weapons there where less powerfull then their TT counterparts

And the game will be based as closely as possible on the TT, that is why many people are afraid that introducing the clans one year after launch will have horrendous effects on the game itselfe.

Introducing such a big game changer after the game is established has never really worked out.. look at what sony did with star wars galaxys and their "combat update"... it was all downhill from there on out.

Quote

but in MW games firing your clan er large laser and your is medium laser at 300meters is going to be exactly the same.

So? The clan ER LArge laser causes double the damage at a range that far FAR exceeds the medium lasers (or large lasers) reach.. people will use that to their advantage and stay out of range of their enemy... no arbritray honor rule is going to change basic human behavior.

Quote

But for the most part, if you stick with cannon designs that's not a major issue since most clan mechs sacrifice all that pod space for bigger engines.

The Clan mechs are far superior over their IS opponents. Look above for my example of a cougar vs a Dragon... the difference in possible damage is staggering. The average damage numbers might be lower for both due to heat and human failure but the cougar will allways cause more damage then an IS heavy that is two weight classes above it.

Edited by Riptor, 15 November 2011 - 07:05 AM.

[Frantic Pryde]

Really? I actually felt like is tech was actually somewhat better than clan tech in mw4... Light gauss had crazy range and was small enough to boat and did good damage. Large lasers barely blipped the heat meter and then came x-pulse lasers and heavy gauss and iff jammers etc... What the clans had was the best ppc and omni slots... That's about it really.

I was actually thinking more mw2-3. As those games are probably much closer to what this is going to be. Mw4 was a mess. I really hope they don't take anything from that game.

Anyone here ever play mw2 or 3 multiplayer? Sure the clan tech was better but it wasn't a real significant edge. I played in stock leagues for the entire length of mw3. Ask any stock player from those days. We would drop in even matches and the skill of the players and a little mix of luck where always the determining factors.

[Riptor]

Wasnt mechwarrior 2 all clan anyways? Unless youre talking about mw2: mercs.

Also 3 i must admit i dont know since back then internet connections werent that common.. atleast not for playing hence the lack of flat rates making online gaming very expensive. But even in this game clan tech was superior to IS tech, less weight meant more space for double heat sinks, higher range.. more damage... they might increased the heat but since you would use clan double heat sinks that wasnt an issue... netting you higher range and damage for the same tonnage, at least in the single player game.

The advantage of clans in MW4 was no minimum range for LRM, lighter and thus more weapons, higher range (very important) and higher damage.

Mind you mektek tried its best to even out the balance and i mostly played in leagues before they started to tinker with the balance.. but the IS in this game wont have heavy gauss, X-pulse lasers or any other "new" inventions that are unique to the IS and that it came up with after the clan invasion. They will also not have double heat sinks wich will mean that a Large laser is a serious hit on your heat gauge.

Edited by Riptor, 15 November 2011 - 07:20 AM.

[Aaron DeChavilier]

A sticking point of this issue is: Clan tech works in canon because the clans are written characters
In a story where I control the characters actions, I can say that clans uphold a sense of honor and will
gimp himself during combat. The whole Zellbrigen thing even on the TT is a tedious RP system where you
have to trust your clan opponent to first know the ins and outs, and then you have to police them (not fun
for either group)

All the canon in the world does not excuse the raw advantage that clan tech gives, look at it this way:
why are Space Marines the most wildly popular faction of Warhammer 40k? cause the space marines
ruleset is incredibly over powered, and incredibly forgiving. According to canon, Space Marines fight
in small groups of 1,000 warriors called 'chapters' but in reality where would be more 'chapters' than
original legions of them! why? because so many players play them! why? because they have the best
of everything.

The Dragon/Cougar mashup? that's a hard sell, mainly cause the Cougar was introduced after
the Refusal War. So by this time, A) the Dragon would be a Grand dragon with ER PPC or another
Kurita/IS mech of equal time period that could trounce the Cougar mainly on the weight advantage.

There's a reason people 'whine' about Clan stuff, because it did leave the TT with a sore behind.
As far as the new game goes; you can't realistically expect to be able to enforce something like
Zellbriggen on any players because its not fun for all. The BV system for better or worse has the
best chance to balance this.

I think one way is to make the Clans susceptible to 'hyperventilating' in combat with the Inner Sphere.
How do I mean? well clans don't think about ammo (they assume they'll always get reloads from the
bivouac later) so make reloading after IS fights only more expensive. Same goes with replacing
damage weapons and systems. Clans are used to fighting one-and-done trials, so reflect their poor
logistics as part of the economy of the game. Have their equipment moderately easy to get, just really
expensive to maintain.

Example: An LRM10 costs 100k c-bills and reloads are 30k
To maintain a clan LRM10:
reloads will cost 45 or 50k per ton of ammunition
this makes boating possible, but almost prohibitively expensive.
oh? the launcher needs replacing? 150K

(remember, clan warriors don't actually manage their own inventories they simply get their mechs
repaired; where as the IS mechwarrior has to almsot be part-tech him/herself and a bit of a
scrounger)

could someone grind their way hard and render the cost system moot? yes
how many people would devote the time? maybe 15-25% of gamer base?
if you make it costly to run a clan mech, and you limit the amount of mechs people can have, we may
almost achieve clan v IS parity.

overall though, I agree with the original OP. But add; clan tech is just too d amn powerful to truly ever be balanced,
which is why so many people hate clan tech or as I've started calling it "MarySueTech"

Edited by Aaron DeChavilier, 15 November 2011 - 07:43 AM.

[Captain Hat]

Amechwarrior, on 15 November 2011 - 05:56 AM, said:

Actually you cannot be further from the truth on that first statement. The Timber Wolf carries 1 point short of the absolute maximum armor for its weight class.

Ehh, so I got it wrong. 's been a loong time since I played and I always remembered Mad Cats going down quickly... though that could be because they tend to be fire magnets.

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This is another case of where the original game designers already balanced that out for us. Clan players have no choice in armor and speed for their tonnage. They get one of each tonnage and not even a 90 ton design. They cannot afford to all be bad designs. The Clans do not need to be nerfed, they need to be bound. Bound by Honor.

And that works well in a semi-RP on the tabletop. It makes for battles with character and meaning, and introduces a nice narrative element.

It doesn't work for an online game.

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What your saying is, without the clans, the game will not be profitable due to not getting a Timber Wolf as a pilotable machine.

No, you missed the point entirely.

The point is not that you need the "brand rcognition" but that if you force people to jump through all sorts of ridiculous hoops to get at what is going to be universally regarded as the "best content" in the game (the Clan hardware, which will be the best in the game if it is reproduced 100% faithfully) then a lot of players will very quickly get frustrated and give up: More than that, they will advise their friends not to bother playing at all. Opening without the Clans is fine, but as soon as you introduce them at full power, that's all a lot of people are going to be interested in. As a result, you can't afford to make them just plain better- you have to make them balanced, but different. You don't have a choice.

The only real question is how you do it.

[Frantic Pryde]

We will have double heat sinks

In mw4 clan tech was better on paper but is tech was better in practice. Unless your talking stock mechs. Just my opinion...not really super relevant here so anyway...

Your of course right...there won't be any heavy gauss or x-pulse lasers. The tech will be more on par with mw2 (yes mercs ) and mw3. Certainly clan tech is an edge ton for ton, and I think there need to be factors in place for balance but I my main point here is I think some of you guys are blowing this a bit out of proportion.

All mechs are not creates equal. In the current time frame is mechs with gauss rifles, pulse lasers double heat sinks etc are going to be just as much of an advantage in this time frame but no ones freaking out about that. Hell, they've even mentioned the devastator. There is simply no 3025 tech is mech that can stand up to that monster. Clan mechs of it's weight have a hard time with it lol.

The devs have already beaten into our heads that bigger will not be better. So why shouldn't the same be true for tech? Ultimately it's the same thing. I don't care how much cool stuff your put on that kit fox, just about any IS 50+ ton mech is going to take it out every time one on one...but this game is not going to be about one on one is it? It's going to be lance on lance, company on company hopefully binary vs company we'll see.

[Frantic Pryde]

I don't see how people think honor needs to be implemented in some sort of hardcore rp way? Simply make it part of the advancement system. A clan player can be as dishonorable as they want to be...but their progress will be extra slow. It will be akin to losing all the time.

[Captain Hat]

Sure, but that will still put most of the casual gamers off.

And the ones that do do it will still have the most powerful kit at the end of the day.

It's like building a min/maxed RP character. They're terrible at things outside their chosen specialty (usually combat) and even that they're not usually great at for at least a couple of levels- but people still do it all the time. Why? Because once they're leveled up a bit, they are hideously effective. Introducing a relatively arbitrary constraint like "Clan Honour," no matter how you do it, will put the casual players who are the lifeblood of the F2P model off the game and won't stop the hardcore twinks at all.

And once they've got their top-level Clan mech, what do you think they're gonna do with it then, anyway? Do you think they're going to care about honour when they've already got the best kit?

[Kudzu]

Riptor, on 15 November 2011 - 05:06 AM, said:

Also about the Dragon vs Cougar example i gave.

The Dragon is armed with an AC/5, Lrm 10 and two medium lasers (one that points backwards) against the cougars two Clan large pulse lasers and 2 LRM-10s. Wich allows him to strip a maximum of 40 points at once from its enemy while the dragon has a theoretical maximum damage potential of 25... and even that is questionable because at long range the mediums are useless and on close range the LRMs are useless reducing his average damage potential to 10 points (15 at long range) since one of the mediums points backwards while the cougar keeps his 40 points at all ranges.

So 15 against 40 at long ranges and 10 vs 40 in close range... i think i can say that the cougar is superior to the dragon despite the heavier armor on the dragon.

The only thing they are even is the speed.. wich really surprised me.. fast ****** that dragon, ill look out for those when the game goes live.

But since their speed is equal it wont be easy to bring the cougar into perfect range

Buuut... i dont know the exact number of heat sinks on both machines.. my guess is that the couger cant keep up a steady barrage of his large pulse lasers while the dragon wont really run hot when using his AC/5 with his lrms or his medium laser (even at only 10 heat sinks). But then the damage gap between those two is still far to great.

Cougar BV: 1485
Dragon BV: 1125

Both assumes 4/5 pilots under BV 2. Most clan pilots are 3/4 which pushes the BV of the Cougar up to 1534.

Edit: let's swing the bv difference of 370 the other way-- Now your Cougar is taking on a Marauder-5S (bv 1799) with 2 ERPPC's, 2 medium pulse lasers and a Gauss rifle.

Edited by Kudzu, 15 November 2011 - 12:13 PM.