103 replies to this topic

[Amechwarrior]

minobu tetsuharu, on 14 November 2011 - 05:05 AM, said:

But I'm not the one investing money or reputation into building this game so I wouldn't care too much if the devs just took away the tech advantage just to simplify their game design, because this involves a lot of work to get right and to deal with any mistakes made would be expensive.

Exact details of how much "X vs.Y is unfair" or "Z+M situation = exploitable" and all that aside, the point was that you can enforce Clan style play in game mechanics and it is not exceedingly hard. The fine details will need balance, but hypothetically they have a year to work at it after launch. I would be incredibly sad if the Clans did not have their advanced technology. From a "We are doing this at one day is one day in universe" standpoint it also does not make sense. How would the Clans reap a swath of destruction down the invasion corridor if they are not as large as the Great Houses and do not have a huge technical advantage?

All it would do is dilute the faction selection with more of the same. People in the forums now do not know why they should pick one faction over the other 5, adding 4 more Clan factions that work the same way will only further confuse that. They need to be separated, thought of as "the other." Like I said before, they need to be a feared, but conquerable enemy.

On bidding:

Yes, as someone pointed out to me in the Clans 101, the Wolfs for example did not follow all the rules against the Inner Sphere during the invasion. Bidding might be a useful way of differentiating the Clans from one another. If you really wanted to follow the canon and still keep it balanced for all factions you could do this. A strict faction does not bid for Clan/IS matches, but they have to play by dueling rules. Every match is the same number of Clan to IS forces, arbitrarily lets use the 5 vs. 12 as the stock Clan/IS match. Factions like Clan Wolf(really just the Wolfs) would not have to follow these rules but would bid away tonnage or players and are not constrained by dueling rules. Yea, they can combine fire and all that jazz but their is even less of them and they are not stomping around in the biggest baddest machines in their respective weight classes. They will end up with more kills per person and for dangerously low bids, a higher multiplier.

I am not sure if I like the bidding process for one reason. Bidding wars and processes get in the way of actually playing. You spend more time calculating how to undercut the other guy, you ebay snipe his bid at last second and now he is angry, miffed and on your team. I do not know if I want a system in place that puts a barrier between a gamer and playing the meat of the game. One way to counter this is joining matchmaking as a party becomes the bidding process. Lets say normally you can bring 5 people to a Clan/IS match and ###tons. If you get 3 people and total (### -150t) and hit "BID" the games does not try and automatically fill the remaining slots with pick up groupers like every other video game. For that match, you get the corresponding multiplier bonuses for fighting light. If they had hit "Launch" it would have found extra players for them and it would be a normal Clan/IS match, no extra bonuses.

Yes, this takes away the skill and excitement of bidding against your peers, but it gets teams playing the game fast. Ever been stuck in matchmaking where everyone keeps vetoing the map/gametype it draws up? Imagine being the player your commander bids away? Talking about being the last guy to be picked in dodgeball. That is what bidding could like if it was person on person.

[Frantic Pryde]

While I do think your idea has merit, I don't think nerfing the clans is the right idea. I think it's to much of a disconnect with the fluff.

[verybad]

ClanTech is simply better than IS tech. It should be balanced by being more expensive to get and mroe expensive to maintain. This leads to clan warriors typically taking a bit smaller mechs. Not every clan warrior and their siblings gets a MadCat or a Daishi.

It should be better, and it shouldn't be nerfed, it should just take a lot of effort to advance using it. Possibly gain less points fighting against lower tech "dezgra" IS warriors, so theres an incentive to fight other clan warriors. Better lewt, but harder fights.

The Clans had a much poorer economy and logistics system than the IS did, that's why they didn't win in the first place. Their tech was always much better. I don't see Nerfing it as making the game better. I want to beat real clan warriors using IS tech in any case.

[Sam Slade]

Another option would be to make Mercenary an available character choice with limited ability to join actual player clans.

So, people who want to have a large regular social group of gamers would appoint their commander and form an IS 'Star'(or whatever they want to call them'platoon, smash-bot-gang' etc that call easily group up with other IS groups for territorial warfare. Clan players get their tech but are limited in the nuber of people they can bring to the fight simply because they don't have enough ships.

Then you have the Mercs: Mercs get access to just about everything they can get their paws on and are 'contracted' by other groups to join in battles. Now, this being hte case most casual players will sign up as Mercs, they can fight in the Solaris Arenas, they can raid outposts and munitions stores, all kinds of stuff. Then they can sell it to the Inner Sphere players. Again, pie in the sky stuff but it is an option.

[Ramagar]

Sam Slade, on 13 November 2011 - 03:24 PM, said:

First thing you want to do is take all of your preconceived notions about the MW/BT universe and bin them. The lore monkies are NOT going to be the target audience here; mainly because there are more people who don't know or care WHY a clan weapon is better, they just care that it IS better.

Also, I doubt very much that every battle will involve Teamspeak and co-ordinating with Lance-mates and such; again because many people will not care. They came to fight in giant robots with awesome lasers and massive guns and stuff. If Clan-tech is better people will grind the hours and hours needed to get it, or they'll spend the cash(real or not) so they can blast everyone else.

This is a game balance issue and should be immidiatly removed from any lore related arguments. Why? No one cares, they just want to be number one.

Bingo....and I am a clanner. Balance the IS stuff THEN worry about getting clan tech into the game if it gets that far. This is going to have PVP and territory control; if people don't think everyone is going to dive at getting the clan tech they haven't been gaming much. Make the playing ground level at the start and give the game time to breathe a bit. I would rather see tanks etc added BEFORE clan tech is even considered. In MW4 we killed IS mechs at an unholy rate. It's not that we were better, simply they were out classed..completely at every level. So, in conclusion I simply say let skills decide and not uber equipment...at least at the start. Nothing kills a game faster than imbalance and crybabies that can't play a fair match.

[Riptor]

Clan honour rules really are no drawback in a match based combat system.

The game is based on matches so theres really no bidding process... i dunno where you get the idea that ANY rule that keeps players from.. you know.. actually playing the game how they want would ever be considered for a F2P MMO

You want people to play asmuch as they can for aslong as they can. Because the more time a player spends in your game the higher the chance he might purchase something from your online store.

If they are kept from engaging the game because some other clan unit outbid them then youre doing it wrong as a developer that wants to sell a product.

Also Zellbriggen was only a drawback because the IS would engage in gureillia warfare and draw battles out to the point of exhaustion for the clans who where not prepared for drawn out campaigns...

But in a match based system where you have one fight and then return to your hangar for repairs this all matters not.

Actually having one on one fights IS mech vs. Clan mech would allways favour the Clan mech. a Hevy IS Dragoon mech has less firepower then a Clan Cougar whos faster, has jumping capabilitys and a longer range then the Dragoon.

And limiting a players ability to play games in his fave mech cause his mech has a to high BV value is again counterproductive for selling a product.


And last but not least we will have simple team deathmatch and free for all deathmatch modes that have no bearing on any background whatsoever and are more akin to solaris matches.

How do you want to balance these matches so clantech doesnt dominate everyone? A large part of the game, especialy for the casual gamer will be held not in the conquest mode wich will most likely end up being a playground for bigger guilds/clans, but in the simple "jump in/jump out" style of games we see currently in World of tanks.

And this is a very important point that many people around here seem to forget since everyone is so focused on the conquest mode.

[Kudzu]

Riptor, I agree with you on Zell not really working for a general public online game, but your BV idea is a bit off. You don't have to match bv's on a one for one basis, it just needs to be matched by side-- typically it should work out to be 5 clan mechs vs 8-16 IS mechs. Don't forget the the matchmaker can also use clan vs clan and IS vs IS "pure" matches to keep the queues down.

[VYCanis]

Balancing clans i think is possible if done from a multiprong approach

1. GreyGriffin i think was right on in terms of dulling a bit of the tech edge slightly be having clan tech gain its advantage by sacrificing something else, like recycle rates or what have you.

2. If you are IS, make clan salvage difficult enough to keep and use, that even a long term player will still have to rely mostly on IS gear out of practicality. This can be done by having players have to pay cbills to repair their own mechs and their salvage (both chassis and equipment) and pay cbills for customizations. In light of all that, make clan gear (if you are not clan) expensive as hell to maintain, and repairs on mix tech customs expensive as hell also. Do this just right and relying on clan gear exclusively will likely bankrupt most players, making it a bit more of a gamble. "are you willing to risk having your expensive madcat shot up so bad that will possibly cost more to fix that what you will make on this mission" "are you willing to take than clan er-ppc into this fight? its the only one you have left"

3. If you are clan, since you are not using cbills, and trying to outbid other players is not a feasible solution, simply make it where the less BV equivalent you go into a fight with, relative to your opponent, the greater the payoff in lets say "honor points." Which are used sorta like cbills, but differently. Taking 2 dire wolves and 2 timberwolves into a fight would likely give you considerably less than had you won the fight with 2 maddogs and 2 kitfoxes. To encourage clanners to fight IS when any salvage they'd find is unwanted, you can make the taking of planets from the IS gain you a whole lot more honor points than trying to do the same vs other clanners.

4. Being at a severe BV disadvantage might net you such perks as respawn tickets if the game is normally no respawn. Or maybe additional use of npc support if any.

5. Expecting the average player to care at all about clan etiquette or zell or anything of that sort is completely unrealistic. The average player will probably just play clans because "the madcat looks cool." If someone wants to play with zell rules and clan etiquette, more power to them, but that should not be a balancing factor. So the next best thing beyond expecting a certain behavior is simply to give people legitimate reasons and rewards for playing in a given way, and to balance power with risk.

TL-DR the more power you try to take into a fight, the more you may be likely to win, but the more you have to lose if you don't,

Edited by VYCanis, 14 November 2011 - 10:30 PM.

[Frantic Pryde]

Riptor, on 14 November 2011 - 09:09 PM, said:

Clan honour rules really are no drawback in a match based combat system.

The game is based on matches so theres really no bidding process... i dunno where you get the idea that ANY rule that keeps players from.. you know.. actually playing the game how they want would ever be considered for a F2P MMO

You want people to play asmuch as they can for aslong as they can. Because the more time a player spends in your game the higher the chance he might purchase something from your online store.

If they are kept from engaging the game because some other clan unit outbid them then youre doing it wrong as a developer that wants to sell a product.

Also Zellbriggen was only a drawback because the IS would engage in gureillia warfare and draw battles out to the point of exhaustion for the clans who where not prepared for drawn out campaigns...

But in a match based system where you have one fight and then return to your hangar for repairs this all matters not.

Actually having one on one fights IS mech vs. Clan mech would allways favour the Clan mech. a Hevy IS Dragoon mech has less firepower then a Clan Cougar whos faster, has jumping capabilitys and a longer range then the Dragoon.

And limiting a players ability to play games in his fave mech cause his mech has a to high BV value is again counterproductive for selling a product.


And last but not least we will have simple team deathmatch and free for all deathmatch modes that have no bearing on any background whatsoever and are more akin to solaris matches.

How do you want to balance these matches so clantech doesnt dominate everyone? A large part of the game, especialy for the casual gamer will be held not in the conquest mode wich will most likely end up being a playground for bigger guilds/clans, but in the simple "jump in/jump out" style of games we see currently in World of tanks.

And this is a very important point that many people around here seem to forget since everyone is so focused on the conquest mode.

I assume you mean the Dragon. Depending on the model, the dragon is usually faster. The firepower is pretty close but I think most of thencougar variants outgun the dragon except the jumping ones actually...also the dragon has about double the armor

But your right, alot of people are really focusing on conquest mode. I'm certainly guilty of that.. I cant help but think of mpbt since that seems to be the closest to what this might kinda-sorta look like.

I think those death match games will be even easier to balance. Some sort of balancing system similar to what world of tanks does would easily fix that problem. Maybe games will have c bill or a bv based point system, who knows?

Back to the conquest train of thought... I disagree that zell only helps in long term campaigns. Do you know how it actually works?

If I challenged you to a duel and your an IS player, Im stuck attacking you. I don't have the option to attack anyone else even if they are right in my face unloading an a/c20.

If I did attack it would reflect poorly on my honor. Which I think absolutely needs to be tied into a clan players advancement.

[Frantic Pryde]

Man, people respond on all these posts before I finish typing...lol anyway...

VYCanis, on 14 November 2011 - 10:29 PM, said:

5. Expecting the average player to care at all about clan etiquette or zell or anything of that sort is completely unrealistic. The average player will probably just play clans because "the madcat looks cool." If someone wants to play with zell rules and clan etiquette, more power to them, but that should not be a balancing factor. So the next best thing beyond expecting a certain behavior is simply to give people legitimate reasons and rewards for playing in a given way, and to balance power with risk.

Which is why they should play IS factions and just salvage or cash shop for their madcats. I don't expect an IS opponent to honor the duel I issue but I certainly expect another clanner to follow it. At least in conquest games.

[Devlin Stone]

Since in the MechWarrior games heat is applied first, then dissipated, most Clan Mechs are already at a fairly large disadvantage. . . compared to he table top, anyway. As far as competitive jerks go . . . who cares? War isn't fair. People who want the advantage will do what they do. Personally, I like playing the underdog. I might not be able to drop a Summoner with a Locust, but I can sure take the shine off.

[CaveMan]

Devlin Stone, on 14 November 2011 - 11:16 PM, said:

Since in the MechWarrior games heat is applied first, then dissipated, most Clan Mechs are already at a fairly large disadvantage. . . compared to he table top, anyway.

This is actually a pretty good point. If heat effects take place before heat sinks dissipate the heat, then just increasing the amount of heat Clan weapons generate beyond their canonical values would go a LONG way toward fixing the imbalance. Increase the heat production of Clan weapons by, say, 50% and that nearly wipes their firepower advantage because 10 DHS is still only dissipating 2 heat per second. It'll take 9 seconds (with the heat increase) just to counteract one ERLL.
A Stormcrow Prime firing everything will build up 57 heat in a second or so, which is more than enough to shut it down, and it's only dissipating 4.4 heat per second. If you fire everything at once, you're shut down for 6.6 seconds during which you can't return fire, and you don't get back to zero heat for a further 6.5 seconds. To avoid heat penalties, you'll be waiting around 4 seconds inbetween weapon shots. And this is one of the most heat-efficient 'Mechs ever made!
Meanwhile the lowly IS Wolverine with its AC/5, SRM-6, and medium laser can only generate 8 heat in a full-on attack, and has 10 single HS, so it can fire a weapon roughly every two to three seconds and not suffer any heat penalties.

[VYCanis]

Frantic Pryde, on 14 November 2011 - 10:41 PM, said:

Man, people respond on all these posts before I finish typing...lol anyway...



Which is why they should play IS factions and just salvage or cash shop for their madcats. I don't expect an IS opponent to honor the duel I issue but I certainly expect another clanner to follow it. At least in conquest games.

except you can't really enforce that sort of thing, not without being really heavy handed about it. Me, i'd be happy to stick to playing IS and being forced to earn the hell out of those clan DHS to shove into an awesome, that will be too afraid to use, less i break it. But what about the people that are just here for the giant fighty robots, and simply want to go clan for whatever bizarre reasons. As much as we'd love for the average clan player to act clanny, that's about as likely as the average counterstrike player not speaking exclusively in racial slurs and high pitches.

[Devlin Stone]

CaveMan, if you do that you ruin Clan Tech ESPECIALLY for use by heat-sink challenged Inner Sphere Mechs. I posted a canonically sound and much less... severe way of handling that advantage in the "balancing double heat sinks" thread. Here's the run down:

Engine-mounted heat sinks are always under load. ( They actively absorb heat from the engine as well as excess from the secondary systems, so their coolant is always heated. )

Chassis-mounted heat-sinks are normally unloaded heat pumps, so their coolant can absorb a good amount of heat from weapons-fire, jump-jets and logistics systems before the mech's temperature rises at all.

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Heat_Sink

This way chassis-mounted heat sinks can 'buffer' a certain ammount of heat after they are allowed to cool. A lot of clan designs rely heavily on those internal heat sinks to dissipate heat, but if those engine-mounted heat sinks have no buffer, you rob some of their advantage. Double heat-sinks still dissipate twice as fast, but only buffer the same as single heat sinks. In effect, each chassis-mounted heat-sink give you a few extra shots before your Mech suffers from overheating. It's not all bad for clan mechs either, since it lets you alpha-strike once in a Supernova without exploding violently.

Edited by Devlin Stone, 15 November 2011 - 01:09 AM.

[CaveMan]

The more I think about this heat thing, the more sense it makes.
It's simple, it's elegant, it's easily explained away by fluff (clan equipment is lighter and smaller than IS equipment, it physically does not have as much capacity to retain heat). It also forces Clan players to be much smarter about how they employ their weapons, despite having DHS. You may not want to chain those energy weapons, mixing in some cooler ammo-based weapons into the cycle will keep your average heat buildup down. It totally wrecks e-boating: firing a heavy large laser is going to put you into auto-shutdown territory for a couple of seconds. Four of them would leave you shut down long enough you'd be splattered before you could restart.

To keep it from being excessively brutal (ERPPCs instantly exploding your ammo would be unfair), give a 2 second "grace period" between building up heat and the deleterious effects of being overheated. Thus a Timberwolf Prime firing both ER large lasers over one second builds up 24 heat, then dissipates 3.4 heat/sec over that 2-second grace period so that by the time you'd start to risk an ammo explosion roll you've cooled down to 17.2 heat, avoiding the danger.

[CaveMan]

Devlin Stone, on 15 November 2011 - 12:45 AM, said:

CaveMan, if you do that you ruin Clan Tech ESPECIALLY for use by heat-sink challenged Inner Sphere Mechs.

That's the idea, 'bro. You want the extra range/damage output, you put up with the pain.

[Kudzu]

CaveMan, on 15 November 2011 - 12:51 AM, said:

The more I think about this heat thing, the more sense it makes.
It's simple, it's elegant, it's easily explained away by fluff (clan equipment is lighter and smaller than IS equipment, it physically does not have as much capacity to retain heat). It also forces Clan players to be much smarter about how they employ their weapons, despite having DHS. You may not want to chain those energy weapons, mixing in some cooler ammo-based weapons into the cycle will keep your average heat buildup down. It totally wrecks e-boating: firing a heavy large laser is going to put you into auto-shutdown territory for a couple of seconds. Four of them would leave you shut down long enough you'd be splattered before you could restart.

To keep it from being excessively brutal (ERPPCs instantly exploding your ammo would be unfair), give a 2 second "grace period" between building up heat and the deleterious effects of being overheated. Thus a Timberwolf Prime firing both ER large lasers over one second builds up 24 heat, then dissipates 3.4 heat/sec over that 2-second grace period so that by the time you'd start to risk an ammo explosion roll you've cooled down to 17.2 heat, avoiding the danger.

Maybe it's the TT purist in me, but I still see a solidly balanced BV system as an easier solution and working better than fundamentally changing how the heat systems works-- especially since it goes completely against all established lore.

[CaveMan]

CaveMan said:

Increase the heat production of Clan weapons by, say, 50%

CaveMan said:

Thus a Timberwolf Prime firing both ER large lasers over one second builds up 24 heat, then dissipates 3.4 heat/sec over that 2-second grace period so that by the time you'd start to risk an ammo explosion roll you've cooled down to 17.2 heat, avoiding the danger.

Whoops, hoisted myself on my own petard.

+50% heat is obviously way too much, or two seconds is too little "safe" time to be hot, since with the increased values those ERLLs would make 36 combined heat and that would be deadly.

Maybe 1 point per heat sink (2 for doubles) per 10 seconds is too slow of a heat dissipation rate, as well. Single HS in MW3 felt 'about right' to me, doubles cooled a bit too fast.

Kudzu said:

Maybe it's the TT purist in me, but I still see a solidly balanced BV system as an easier solution and working better than fundamentally changing how the heat systems works-- especially since it goes completely against all established lore.

I have yet to see a suggestion for a BV-based system that can account for players not being able to choose any 'Mech they desire at will. If you have a high-BV 'Mech because that's the only one your character owns, do you have to sit out the match because your team is over the limit? Does a Clan player have to wait around for hours because the Clan slots in matches are always full?

[VYCanis]

Kudzu, on 15 November 2011 - 01:02 AM, said:

Maybe it's the TT purist in me, but I still see a solidly balanced BV system as an easier solution and working better than fundamentally changing how the heat systems works-- especially since it goes completely against all established lore.

BV is a good direction, but its not enough on its own, i don't think, to balance the issue in its entirety. Because at the end of the day, even if the IS is outnumbering clanners, nobody likes ending up head to head with someone that has about a dozen or so advantages over you.

Its fine and dandy when you are ordering dudes around in the TT or in mechcommander or any RTS, its different when you are the unit, and don't fancy being cannon fodder to someone else. Thats why giving clan gear some drawbacks for all of their power (or IS gear getting benefits for all their suck) is probably a good idea, because then you don't have to rely so much to asymmetric warfare as much when massive advantages become more like moderate advantages.

[Kudzu]

CaveMan, on 15 November 2011 - 01:12 AM, said:

I have yet to see a suggestion for a BV-based system that can account for players not being able to choose any 'Mech they desire at will. If you have a high-BV 'Mech because that's the only one your character owns, do you have to sit out the match because your team is over the limit? Does a Clan player have to wait around for hours because the Clan slots in matches are always full?

Actually, it's not that hard at all, at least if you don't put in a hard cap for random fights. Join the queue as a singleton, lance, company, whatever at with any BV you want. The matchmaker the combines you with other units to fill out the rest of the slots and does the same for the other side.

Really quick example using made up values:
You and your buddies make a lance that ends up at 4615k bv, you get added to another lance at 7321 bv, and finally 4 singles get grouped together at 3604 bv to form the last lance. Total company value = 15540

Now, the matchmaker looks across the queue to form a company and snags a lance of all lights at 2301 bv, an all assault lance at 9375 bv and puts together 4 singles at 3752 bv. Total company value= 15428

The difference is 112 bv, and in my just made up bv system that's within the acceptable range-- so now you fight. The next game could be your lance + 8 different people with an 1106 total bv vs a 1201 bv company. As long as the totals are close it doesn't really matter what the end value is. Queuing singly would probably get you into games the fastest, but you pay for that speed with being put into non-optimal pug lances. It all works out in the end.

Now for conquer games I could see a hard cap being in place, but I'm assuming it will be the more organized merc companies using it the most, so you'll probably have a few different mechs you could bring or have enough people that you can swap around who goes to which fight.

Since the FAQ seems to hint at there not being a mechlab, each design could be fitted with it's own bv that can be adjusted individually as needed according to whatever metrics they decide to use-- if Mech A is performing extremely well/ is too popular they can raise its battle value while lowering Mech B's bv because it's not doing well/ is unpopular.

VYCanis, on 15 November 2011 - 01:33 AM, said:

BV is a good direction, but its not enough on its own, i don't think, to balance the issue in its entirety. Because at the end of the day, even if the IS is outnumbering clanners, nobody likes ending up head to head with someone that has about a dozen or so advantages over you.

Its fine and dandy when you are ordering dudes around in the TT or in mechcommander or any RTS, its different when you are the unit, and don't fancy being cannon fodder to someone else. Thats why giving clan gear some drawbacks for all of their power (or IS gear getting benefits for all their suck) is probably a good idea, because then you don't have to rely so much to asymmetric warfare as much when massive advantages become more like moderate advantages.

I think it has more to do with adjusting tactics and using better teamwork than it is about being a punching bag. If you are IS and facing a clan unit, you don't charge off against them in one on one combat-- you gang up, use terrain to get in close without being shot up, block line of sight to your wounded guys with fresh bodies, use flanking tactics/backstabs, etc.

It might be that you only see IS vs Clan fights in conquer games (where you'll have better communication) and leave pug fights as pure-tech match ups. That really wouldn't be a bad thing at all IMO.

Edited by Kudzu, 15 November 2011 - 02:32 AM.