106 replies to this topic

[kesmai]

stop the fantasy numbers and start with modelling ac´s according to lore.
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Autocannon

Edited by kesmai, 08 January 2014 - 09:54 AM.

[Roland]

I know folks think that making AC's into some kind of trash burst fire weapon is useful, but it's really not, and it's gonna kill the weapon.

The whole point of the AC20, even in the original battletech, was that it did 20 damage TO ONE LOCATION.

This was WHY you used that gun. It was why it was better than 4 medium lasers.

The problem that folks are generally running into isn't that the AC20 does point damage.. it's that when you combine a ton of guns, they all fuse into a single uber-gun. This has been a problem that has plagued mechwarrior FOREVER. We've seen the issue in every single mechwarrior title to date.

A single AC20 in BT was a deadly weapon, because that single shot hitting a light mech's limb would tend to rip it off... or if it hit anyone's head, it'd kill that mech EVERY SINGLE TIME.

The problem you're seeing in MWO, is that you can combine a bunch of weapons... like two AC20's, or PPC's and AC's, or whatever.. and suddenly you have the devastating power of the AC20, but at really long range.

The answer isn't to make more weapons into burn time weapons... because the result is not going to change the fact that the best builds will still involve grouping together the largest alpha possible.

[kesmai]

that is for a TT game with rounds and dices quite good.
i don´t see that the one hit one locations fits a first person simulator, infact all the mech sims this far just weren´t giving a damned thing about the lore wise implementation of ac´s and the consequences following.
the only thing i see here is a chance, not an obstacle.

[DaZur]

Making ACs delivery their damage the same way energy weapons do is not "balancing weapons"...

It does nothing but remove the unique qualities of different delivery systems in a failed attempt at balance through generalizing weapon impact.

[Joseph Mallan]

kesmai, on 08 January 2014 - 10:07 AM, said:

that is for a TT game with rounds and dices quite good.
i don´t see that the one hit one locations fits a first person simulator, infact all the mech sims this far just weren´t giving a damned thing about the lore wise implementation of ac´s and the consequences following.
the only thing i see here is a chance, not an obstacle.

Try to find a 150mm Autocannon or bigger. There is a reason that auto Cannons are in the 30-40mm range. Cause you just don't wanna try to speed load a 280lbs explosive packed shell at 800 rounds per minute! A 203 mm cannon fires once every 6 seconds (as fast as an AC20) Our ACs are working just fine for there Size/Caliber!

[Roland]

kesmai, on 08 January 2014 - 10:07 AM, said:

that is for a TT game with rounds and dices quite good.
i don´t see that the one hit one locations fits a first person simulator, infact all the mech sims this far just weren´t giving a damned thing about the lore wise implementation of ac´s and the consequences following.
the only thing i see here is a chance, not an obstacle.

But what you are missing is the fact that if you remove the key feature of the high caliber AC's, so that a weapon like the AC20 no longer does its primary job (ie delivering a huge punch to one location), then you are screwing up the balance of it with the other weapons.

You then need to address those balance issues.

For instance, right now, ballistics are generally inferior to lasers in all ways but one (well, two if you include heat, but that tends to actually be minimized by the huge weight benefit of energy weapons).. Ballistics are super heavy, super large, require ammo, and require you to lead a target due to the travel time of the projectile. Energy weapons are light, small, and have no ammo requirements.

The one reason why people bring ballistics is because they deliver precision point damage... That makes up for the fact that they are bad in all other ways.

If you remove that one benefit, then people will just use lasers.. because why wouldn't you? They'll be just like light, small ballistic weapons, that require no leading of a target.. Their hitscan nature will make them dramatically superior to ballistics.

[kesuga7]

Roland, on 08 January 2014 - 10:00 AM, said:

I know folks think that making AC's into some kind of trash burst fire weapon is useful, but it's really not, and it's gonna kill the weapon.

The whole point of the AC20, even in the original battletech, was that it did 20 damage TO ONE LOCATION.

wellll in battletech there is one Single shot ac 20 but the recoil was too much that only atlas and very sturdy mechs could mount

[Roland]

kesuga7, on 08 January 2014 - 10:15 AM, said:

wellll in battletech there is one Single shot ac 20 but the recoil was too much that only atlas and very sturdy mechs could mount

Every AC20 in Battletech is single shot, and does its damage to a single location.

All the other talk is just fluff and doesn't mean anything. The garbage about different manufacturers and {Scrap} isn't actually part of the game. It has no impact on game balance.

[kesmai]

Roland, on 08 January 2014 - 10:15 AM, said:

But what you are missing is the fact that if you remove the key feature of the high caliber AC's, so that a weapon like the AC20 no longer does its primary job (ie delivering a huge punch to one location), then you are screwing up the balance of it with the other weapons.

You then need to address those balance issues.

For instance, right now, ballistics are generally inferior to lasers in all ways but one (well, two if you include heat, but that tends to actually be minimized by the huge weight benefit of energy weapons).. Ballistics are super heavy, super large, require ammo, and require you to lead a target due to the travel time of the projectile. Energy weapons are light, small, and have no ammo requirements.

The one reason why people bring ballistics is because they deliver precision point damage... That makes up for the fact that they are bad in all other ways.

If you remove that one benefit, then people will just use lasers.. because why wouldn't you? They'll be just like light, small ballistic weapons, that require no leading of a target.. Their hitscan nature will make them dramatically superior to ballistics.

what you are missing is the fact that there a different types of ac´s out there.
let´s take the ac/10
http://www.sarna.net...i/Autocannon/10

this where it really gets interesting.
this is what i mean when i say this is a chance not an obstacle

[Corbon Zackery]

The Autocannon is a direct-fire ballistic weapon, firing HEAP (High-Explosive Armor-Piercing) rounds at targets either singly or in bursts.

Different manufacturers and models of autocannons have different calibers (25mm-203mm) and rates of fire. Due to this, autocannons are grouped into generic "classes" of autocannons with common damage ratings, with Autocannon/20s doing massive damage while having very short range.

An example of the rating system: the Crusher Super Heavy Cannon is a 150mm weapon firing ten shells per "round" while the Chemjet Gun is a 185mm weapon firing much slower, and causing higher damage per shell. Despite their differences, both are classified as Autocannon/20s due to their damage output.


Nothing wrong with the auto cannons you can't fire magic BB past extended range any more.

[kesmai]

Roland, on 08 January 2014 - 10:18 AM, said:

Every AC20 in Battletech is single shot, and does its damage to a single location.

All the other talk is just fluff and doesn't mean anything. The garbage about different manufacturers and {Scrap} isn't actually part of the game. It has no impact on game balance.

if all that is {Scrap} for you then you have stated your point by now.

[Maerawn]

Stop the fantasy walking battle vehicle {Scrap} and model them according to real life physics!!!!! a 100 ton tank shouldnt be able to move faster then .4 miles per hour, and should fall over everytime it moves a limb....

This 53kph atlas {Scrap} is bull!!!!!

[Mechteric]

I'd love to see the autocannon 20 (and the 10 following suit) to behave like it did in the Mechwarrior Reboot trailer. I think that AC20 fired 1 round about every 0.5 seconds or so. They'd have to adjust the damage per shot and ammo per ton to match but the DPS could remain exactly the same.

Doing this would make the autocannon a great brawler DPS weapon, and once SRMs are fixed you'd be in for some pretty savage brawls!

[Roland]

Corbon Zackery, on 08 January 2014 - 10:19 AM, said:

The Autocannon is a direct-fire ballistic weapon, firing HEAP (High-Explosive Armor-Piercing) rounds at targets either singly or in bursts.

Different manufacturers and models of autocannons have different calibers (25mm-203mm) and rates of fire. Due to this, autocannons are grouped into generic "classes" of autocannons with common damage ratings, with Autocannon/20s doing massive damage while having very short range.

An example of the rating system: the Crusher Super Heavy Cannon is a 150mm weapon firing ten shells per "round" while the Chemjet Gun is a 185mm weapon firing much slower, and causing higher damage per shell. Despite their differences, both are classified as Autocannon/20s due to their damage output.


Nothing wrong with the auto cannons you can't fire magic BB past extended range any more.

None of this matters. It's pure fluff. It's not represented in any battletech rules. It isn't included in the balance.

If you are going to use battletech as a starting point for balance, you need to use the actual GAME RULES, not the pointless fluff that was added as filler material to the sourcebooks.

[kesmai]

ok i get it: it´s good as it is.

[Joseph Mallan]

kesuga7, on 08 January 2014 - 10:15 AM, said:

wellll in battletech there is one Single shot ac 20 but the recoil was too much that only atlas and very sturdy mechs could mount

I would like to direct you to the fluff text of the Hunchbacks AC20:

Quote

Weapons and Equipment

The primary weapon on the Hunchback is a Tomodzuru Autocannon Mount Type 20 which can strip one and a quarter tons of armor off an enemy 'Mech in a single blow. This is paired with two Ichiba 2000 Medium Lasers and a Diverse Optics Type 10 Small Laser. All of the weapons carried by the Hunchback make it a devastating opponent at close range.

1 1/4 tons of armor in a single blow. NOT a single burst...

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 08 January 2014 - 10:24 AM.

[EvilCow]

Actually burst fire is such a bad idea that we could see it at some point.

[kesuga7]

Roland, on 08 January 2014 - 10:18 AM, said:

Every AC20 in Battletech is single shot, and does its damage to a single location.

All the other talk is just fluff and doesn't mean anything. The garbage about different manufacturers and {Scrap} isn't actually part of the game. It has no impact on game balance.

welp you did say battletech and not tapletop :L

You have to remember the damage is based off dice roles to A SIngle location and not ingame shooting with faster reloads and being able to actually aim lol

[Joseph Mallan]

kesuga7, on 08 January 2014 - 10:24 AM, said:

welp you did say battletech and not tapletop :L

You have to remember the damage is based off dice roles to A SIngle location and not ingame shooting with faster reloads and being able to actually aim lol

Present 203 mm Canons fire at a rate 1 shell every 6 seconds and a 150mm cannon fires once every 15 seconds... which is weird I confess cause it is a smaller shell!

[Skyfaller]

Roland, on 08 January 2014 - 10:00 AM, said:

I know folks think that making AC's into some kind of trash burst fire weapon is useful, but it's really not, and it's gonna kill the weapon.

The whole point of the AC20, even in the original battletech, was that it did 20 damage TO ONE LOCATION.

This was WHY you used that gun. It was why it was better than 4 medium lasers.

Stop right there. That's incorrect.

It did 20 damage to ONE LOCATION.. AT RANDOM.

If you have not noticed the issue in MWO is the pinpoint delivery of TWO ac20s to ONE location with literally no aiming or exposure time (turn torso 90 degrees, click, boom! 40 damage to one armor location).

Four lasers in TT had each laser hitting a different part of the enemy mech for 5 damage, not spreading each laser's damage all over it as it does in MWO.