48 replies to this topic

[PaintedWolf]

Pro or Con and why?

[Craig Steele]

Please explain?

[PaintedWolf]

Craig Steele, on 07 March 2014 - 07:11 PM, said:

Please explain?

The new Jade Falcon rule in 3145- planets who lose in their Trials that do not submit are completely wiped out. This means for example, be killed off by Naval Bombardment. This is after they get overturned by a revolutionary lower caste movement. Their new Khan even uses Nukes and they now label themselves "The Golden Ordos."

It actually does seem to work in the fiction so far, they made an example of two worlds and the rest complied.

Edited by PaintedWolf, 07 March 2014 - 07:15 PM.

[Craig Steele]

PaintedWolf, on 07 March 2014 - 07:14 PM, said:

The new Jade Falcon rule in 3145- planets who lose in their Trials that do not submit are completely wiped out. This means for example, be killed off by Naval Bombardment. This is after they get overturned by a revolutionary lower caste movement. Their new Khan even uses Nukes and they now label themselves "The Golden Ordos."

It actually does seem to work in the fiction so far, they made an example of two worlds and the rest complied.

Haven't caught this yet, sounds very "Death Star", no comment sorry

[Mindwipe]

Can't say I see Hazan's <sp> view of the Mongol doctrine as useful, intelligent, or really any purpose beyond making a 'bad guy' in the universe. I realize the Clans are written badly, and they're mostly insane, but destroying valuable resources, which the Clans were kinda formed to avoid doing to begin with, is just stupid.

She can get away with it because the vast majority of characters in the BattleTech canon have fallen down the stupid tree hitting every branch on the way down. If there's a bad decision to be made, some leader in the Inner Sphere is making it right now.

Personally, I really hope that the Jade Falcons get a better leader quickly when the timeline advances, frankly Malvina would be the best choice for several factions to team up on. The Wolves (although I don't think they have much common frontage anymore), the Lyrans, Wolves-in-Exile (have they done anything in the last 50 years?) and especially the Hell's Horses who came up with the original Doctrine should wipe that nutjob out.

<Deep Breath> Sorry, while I'm no Clan fan, I at least respected the Falcon's for sticking with their Clan ways overall, Hazan is just too over the top to be allowed to lead. On the other hand, it's always been a shame that Clanner's didn't attack from the other side of the Sphere. I can only imagine how little territory they would have gained trying to pacify Liao worlds.

[PaintedWolf]

Mindwipe, on 07 March 2014 - 07:36 PM, said:

Can't say I see Hazan's <sp> view of the Mongol doctrine as useful, intelligent, or really any purpose beyond making a 'bad guy' in the universe. I realize the Clans are written badly, and they're mostly insane, but destroying valuable resources, which the Clans were kinda formed to avoid doing to begin with, is just stupid.

I don't know. The reasoning is that if the people constantly rebel they won't get the resources anyways. It was the same reasoning used in the Reavings.

So far it has actually worked out, conquered worlds have started rebelling. I am more weirded out that Malvin is threshing out WMD punishment for "failures" now. That might force people to rebel even if they did not want to.

Mindwipe, on 07 March 2014 - 07:36 PM, said:

She can get away with it because the vast majority of characters in the BattleTech canon have fallen down the stupid tree hitting every branch on the way down. If there's a bad decision to be made, some leader in the Inner Sphere is making it right now.

So the whole universe is ruled by corrupt politicians?

Mindwipe, on 07 March 2014 - 07:36 PM, said:

Personally, I really hope that the Jade Falcons get a better leader quickly when the timeline advances, frankly Malvina would be the best choice for several factions to team up on. The Wolves (although I don't think they have much common frontage anymore), the Lyrans, Wolves-in-Exile (have they done anything in the last 50 years?) and especially the Hell's Horses who came up with the original Doctrine should wipe that nutjob out.

Blaze of Glory!!!

Mindwipe, on 07 March 2014 - 07:36 PM, said:

<Deep Breath> Sorry, while I'm no Clan fan, I at least respected the Falcon's for sticking with their Clan ways overall, Hazan is just too over the top to be allowed to lead. On the other hand, it's always been a shame that Clanner's didn't attack from the other side of the Sphere.

She is the People's Choice.

Mindwipe, on 07 March 2014 - 07:36 PM, said:

I can only imagine how little territory they would have gained trying to pacify Liao worlds.

Cake-walk with Reavings?

If Clans were so insulted that they started using their Warships, offensively, they may have taken the entire Inner Sphere. The whole IS had zero Warships. They could have rolled across and destroyed all Jump Ships remaining, crippling the entire IS, especially if they hit HPG too.

I really hope the RAF did not disband Warships.

Also Liao would have surrendered, maybe even started helping them. If it takes out the FedSuns it cannot be all bad.

Edited by PaintedWolf, 07 March 2014 - 07:44 PM.

[Craig Steele]

Mindwipe, on 07 March 2014 - 07:36 PM, said:

On the other hand, it's always been a shame that Clanner's didn't attack from the other side of the Sphere. I can only imagine how little territory they would have gained trying to pacify Liao worlds.

I used to theorise that the BT universe would one day have an alien race contact and it would come from this side.

Like the clans, new techs, new weapons, new cultures, a whole new overlay for the BT universe to explore.

My thought was kind of a gypsy thing, Ark Ships etc, no home worlds. Just a floating through space race that takes what it wants and moves on.

The stronger I see Cap Con getting in current universe, the more likely I think it is coming.

[CyclonerM]

PaintedWolf, on 07 March 2014 - 07:41 PM, said:

I don't know. The reasoning is that if the people constantly rebel they won't get the resources anyways. It was the same reasoning used in the Reavings.

So far it has actually worked out, conquered worlds have started rebelling. I am more weirded out that Malvin is threshing out WMD punishment for "failures" now. That might force people to rebel even if they did not want to.



So the whole universe is ruled by corrupt politicians?



Blaze of Glory!!!



She is the People's Choice.



Cake-walk with Reavings?

If Clans were so insulted that they started using their Warships, offensively, they may have taken the entire Inner Sphere. The whole IS had zero Warships. They could have rolled across and destroyed all Jump Ships remaining, crippling the entire IS, especially if they hit HPG too.

I really hope the RAF did not disband Warships.

Also Liao would have surrendered, maybe even started helping them. If it takes out the FedSuns it cannot be all bad.

Actually, ComStar had some hidden Warships..

Meh, i still have little knowdlege of Dark Age history but if this is true then the Falcons have fallen even lower in my eyes..

[Mindwipe]

Warships are very overrated. Especially used as they are in official canon. Look how most of them are lost, it's in small actions. If you look at them from a TT rules perspective, most of them are total garbage. The vast majority of Star League warships are glorified cargo haulers. Just look at how much cargo they have devoted of their total mass. I'm still catching up on my Star League era books but they seem to be more support ships than warships.

Plus if the Clanners really went wild with their warships, than either ComStar/WoB would have pulled theirs out early, or the more likely IS response of nuke it till it glows. Massive AMS batteries aren't common until well after the Jihad and nukes make a complete mockery of warships. Frankly too much of a mockery.

While the timeline doesn't match up enough to make it possible, the CapCon revivial happened after the Clans hit, the current makeup of the CapCon would be a nightmare for the Clans, they don't fight guerrilla wars in the sustained way the Cappies would.

I suppose it's a matter of completely opposite perspectives, the Clanners generally only care about themselves, their legacy, their renown. It's about the individual. The CapCon emphasizes the state over the individual. They gladly suicide themselves into invaders. I think it's why they survived the Jihad, they were more fanatical than the Blakists.

The Wars of Reaving (and I'll admit I'm not done that book yet) are a classic example of Clan idiocy. They throw their own hissy fits whenever the world doesn't match their 'noble dreams' and become the very thing they say they stand againt. Even in the original invasion it was the Smoke Jaguars at Turtle Bay that used the first WMD (yes I count Warships as such). That would eventually cost them their entire Clan.

I'm guessing that will be at least a good part of the Jade Falcon's fate with the nutjob in charge. But then I expect her 'pet' to shiv her any day now.

[Mindwipe]

Craig Steele, on 07 March 2014 - 07:47 PM, said:

I used to theorise that the BT universe would one day have an alien race contact and it would come from this side.

Like the clans, new techs, new weapons, new cultures, a whole new overlay for the BT universe to explore.

My thought was kind of a gypsy thing, Ark Ships etc, no home worlds. Just a floating through space race that takes what it wants and moves on.

The stronger I see Cap Con getting in current universe, the more likely I think it is coming.

They've always said there will not be intelligent aliens in BattleTech. Personally I hope they stay with that. That said your idea of the wanderers could well happen. After all, despite everyone declaring victory and then promptly following Stone's disarmament plan (again the CapCon was smart here) they never really beat the WoB. There are still potential hidden worlds, and divisions of troops are unaccounted for.

Given the bulk of those are the Manai Domini I'd be very concerned about letting my guard down just because some guy cocooned in the center of the Sphere says we should. A concentrated push by those remaining WoB forces would easily take any objective they care to, especially given typical WoB disdain for the Ares Conventions or anything else resembling restraint.

[Craig Steele]

Mindwipe, on 08 March 2014 - 08:08 AM, said:

They've always said there will not be intelligent aliens in BattleTech. Personally I hope they stay with that. That said your idea of the wanderers could well happen. After all, despite everyone declaring victory and then promptly following Stone's disarmament plan (again the CapCon was smart here) they never really beat the WoB. There are still potential hidden worlds, and divisions of troops are unaccounted for.

Given the bulk of those are the Manai Domini I'd be very concerned about letting my guard down just because some guy cocooned in the center of the Sphere says we should. A concentrated push by those remaining WoB forces would easily take any objective they care to, especially given typical WoB disdain for the Ares Conventions or anything else resembling restraint.

yeah, the operative word being 'used'.

Now Sea Fox / Diamond Shark have the whole Ark ship thing going on so I kinda think the alien possibility is remote, but still when I see someone getting stronger, something is going to happen

[Craig Steele]

Mindwipe, on 08 March 2014 - 07:58 AM, said:

Warships are very overrated. Especially used as they are in official canon. Look how most of them are lost, it's in small actions. If you look at them from a TT rules perspective, most of them are total garbage. The vast majority of Star League warships are glorified cargo haulers. Just look at how much cargo they have devoted of their total mass. I'm still catching up on my Star League era books but they seem to be more support ships than warships.

Plus if the Clanners really went wild with their warships, than either ComStar/WoB would have pulled theirs out early, or the more likely IS response of nuke it till it glows. Massive AMS batteries aren't common until well after the Jihad and nukes make a complete mockery of warships. Frankly too much of a mockery.

While the timeline doesn't match up enough to make it possible, the CapCon revivial happened after the Clans hit, the current makeup of the CapCon would be a nightmare for the Clans, they don't fight guerrilla wars in the sustained way the Cappies would.

I suppose it's a matter of completely opposite perspectives, the Clanners generally only care about themselves, their legacy, their renown. It's about the individual. The CapCon emphasizes the state over the individual. They gladly suicide themselves into invaders. I think it's why they survived the Jihad, they were more fanatical than the Blakists.

The Wars of Reaving (and I'll admit I'm not done that book yet) are a classic example of Clan idiocy. They throw their own hissy fits whenever the world doesn't match their 'noble dreams' and become the very thing they say they stand againt. Even in the original invasion it was the Smoke Jaguars at Turtle Bay that used the first WMD (yes I count Warships as such). That would eventually cost them their entire Clan.

I'm guessing that will be at least a good part of the Jade Falcon's fate with the nutjob in charge. But then I expect her 'pet' to shiv her any day now.

OK so on warships, you may have a different idea than what they are supposed to be in BT.

The primary role of a warship is to take out enemy dropships and / or ensure your dropships get to the planet. Obviously as a weapons race develops with all these things, they also need to defeat enemy warships.

That was the SLDF tactic, Warships escorting dropships.

Consequently some warships were weak to concentrated aerospace firepower because their weaponry was heavily slanted towards defeating larger targets. This is no different to prevailing naval theory up until 1941 which was largely big guns to destroy enemy ships.

SLDF countered the small fighter threat with dedicated fighter carriers (such the Titan or the Leopard CV) which would ride with a warship on it's drop collars. So for example, an Aegis Cruiser might be packing 2 Titans and some Assault ships would join a convoy of jumpships and jump in system. The Aegis would ensure the jump point is secure and then ride in to the planet with the attacking troops dropships to ensure they landed.

The 'cargo' entry of Warships represents not just lifting, but also endurance. Basically you take your crew number and multiply by a factor for food and consumables and that comes off your cargo capacity. Ships with large tonnage allowances are primarily the long range or independant cruisers. Most SLDF ships have smaller cargo allowances as they follow the Britsh Navy model of bases every where for resupply (??? - 1950) so ships needed to carry less.

As for WMD, sure current Blue water navies are struggling with it too. WMD are a massive danger and hard to counter. In space, it's not enough to destroy the warhead vehicle, you also have to alter its trajectory. What I mean is that destroying the rocket doesn't change the warheads velocity and heading (there is no gravity) and while rocket destruction will impart some variation, the radius of destruction is so huge it just won't matter.

It is a sad fact that unless you can get the launcher before its launched, WMD have a excellent chance of destroying whatever it ends up near. Your only real choice is to try and minimise how much damage is done by spreading out and minimising assets inside the effective radius of the WMD.

[Just wanna play]

Craig Steele, on 08 March 2014 - 05:55 PM, said:

As for WMD, sure current Blue water navies are struggling with it too. WMD are a massive danger and hard to counter. In space, it's not enough to destroy the warhead vehicle, you also have to alter its trajectory. What I mean is that destroying the rocket doesn't change the warheads velocity and heading (there is no gravity) and while rocket destruction will impart some variation, the radius of destruction is so huge it just won't matter.

It is a sad fact that unless you can get the launcher before its launched, WMD have a excellent chance of destroying whatever it ends up near. Your only real choice is to try and minimise how much damage is done by spreading out and minimising assets inside the effective radius of the WMD.

maybe try flak cannons :3

[Craig Steele]

Just wanna play, on 08 March 2014 - 06:19 PM, said:

maybe try flak cannons :3

LOL, Flak cannons are probably the least effective option

It would work something like this.

Launch WMD in a rocket.
Warhead gains velocity as there is no gravity to counter its acceleration (this is a very simplfied version of the physics)
Lets say the weapon has a 20 second journey the the target area
Lets say the rockets speed is 1000m/s, after 10 seconds the warhead is travelling at 10,000m/s, at 15 seconds its travelling at 15,000 m/s
By the time the rocket enters effective PDS range, it's velocity is huge, the PDS will have micro seconds to engage
The velocity of the PDS destructive potential will be nowhere near the current velocity of the warhead
Assuming it hit head on and no other variables, it would slow the warhead down by its own velocity (and any velocity created by destructive power like an explosion) and thats it

Lets be generous and say the PDS projectile has a velocity of 10 times the rocket or 10,000 m/s. To stop the velocity of the warhead (assuming head on hit) it needs to hit the rocket before it reaches it's 10 seconds of travelled distance, or in other words, the PDS needs to engage the rocket before it is fired in order to neuter its forward velocity. See the problem

The easiest answer is Gyro PDS, self propelled shells. But the fuel and acceleration requirements make rapid fire impractical so it becomes a rocket v rocket scenario.

In theory, a WMD in some sort of black box mini structure is going to get roughly where it is targetted no matter what. The defender needs to change it's trajectory before its velocity becomes so great that the distance it travels exceeds the range and targetting ability of short range defenses.

In current doctrine, that means fighters (or picket ships) engaging and destroying the rocket well outside of its destructive area of effect and hence why carriers (such as the Thera) become hot property. Even then though, if your picket ships are targetted, they are going down.

Consider another option. What if you put a WMD inside a ferrocarbide box with a simple time fuse and fired it out of a Gauss rifle. The velocity is constant but huge, and it's completly inert so no passive sensor will detect it. By the time an active sensor detected the tiny box hurting through space it's basically on you. Even if sensors did recognise it as a threat and not a piece of space junk floating by your only hope is to change its velocity and we have no canon that supports a system to engage a projectile.

[Just wanna play]

okay i have an idea that will actually work, really REALLY far away...spaced armor

[Kadix]

Mindwipe, on 07 March 2014 - 07:36 PM, said:

...I realize the Clans are written badly, and...the vast majority of characters in the BattleTech canon have fallen down the stupid tree hitting every branch on the way down.

Honestly, I think the quality of the Dark Age novels is so far below the quality of the holder books that...well...I consider BattleTech to run from 3025 to 3067, and **** the rest.

I sorta understand why some of the changes to the universe happened (making small units relevant again), but the idea that the clans (and everyone else) would all voluntarily disarm (except for lots of infantry and vehicles) is just insane. Combine that with the early Dark Age stuff where a bunch of little groups that look like mini-factions, "Swordsworn" == mini-Davion, etc., while the big boys sit things out just makes no ******* sense at all.

I can see why all the stuff at www.classicbattletech.com is focused on "historicals". The new timeline is just crap.

[Kadix]

CyclonerM, on 08 March 2014 - 05:50 AM, said:

Actually, ComStar had some hidden Warships..

Meh, i still have little knowdlege of Dark Age history but if this is true then the Falcons have fallen even lower in my eyes..

The Wolves give up their entire occupation zone. Literally load up everything of military value into dropships and move in with the Lyrans for no reason whatsoever.

After the combined Wolf-Lyran invasion of the former FWL (where the Lyrans basically use the Wolves as human shields), the Wolves decide to leave their alliance with the Lyrans and occupy some conquered FWL planets.

The Wolves hit the stupid tree...hard...just like every other faction post-Jihad...

Don't get me started on the Anastasia Kerensky "Steel Wolves" bullshit...

Edited by Kadix, 08 March 2014 - 07:37 PM.

[Craig Steele]

Just wanna play, on 08 March 2014 - 07:23 PM, said:

okay i have an idea that will actually work, really REALLY far away...spaced armor

Oh, you mean a warship with external armour say what, 1,000,000 miles from its hull?

On all sides?

So umm, kinda like a death star?

Thats no moon you know

@ Kadix, agreed. I kinda touched the Jihad lightly and went wtf? 3025 - 3070 was where it was at imo.

[PaintedWolf]

Mindwipe, on 08 March 2014 - 07:58 AM, said:

I suppose it's a matter of completely opposite perspectives, the Clanners generally only care about themselves, their legacy, their renown. It's about the individual. The CapCon emphasizes the state over the individual. They gladly suicide themselves into invaders. I think it's why they survived the Jihad, they were more fanatical than the Blakists.

Those suicide tactics sure didn't save them during the Fourth Succession War.

[CyclonerM]

Mindwipe, on 08 March 2014 - 07:58 AM, said:

I suppose it's a matter of completely opposite perspectives, the Clanners generally only care about themselves, their legacy, their renown. It's about the individual. The CapCon emphasizes the state over the individual. They gladly suicide themselves into invaders. I think it's why they survived the Jihad, they were more fanatical than the Blakists.

Actually, in Clan culture, the glory of the Clan comes before the glory of the unit which comes before the glory of the individual .