40 replies to this topic

[Burned_Follower]

I'm only repeating something I learned about the clans about a decade ago, so I probably got this totally wrong, the reasons Clans and their tech were superior on the battlefield were:

- The pilots were the result of selective genetic breeding and possibly some tweaking as well
- The pilots were trained since child hood kind of like Spartans

-Since the Clans in a way are the decendants of the military force involved in the great exodus, the technology they brought with them was allowed to continue to evolve due to the Clans not being involved in the Succession wars. So bottom line, Clan tech is just basically Star League Tech if Star League Tech continued to advance if the Star League never died out.

-The third thing that from what I remember reading about the Clan Mechs years ago that made them so unique(other than their mechs/weapons/ordinance was lighter) is that they were omni-mechs.

-And it wasn't until some time AFTER the clan invasions that Inner Sphere folk learned from it and thus that's where we get IS Omni-Mechs

Am I correct to assume that all clan mechs are omni mechs, or did I misunderstand something back then?

Does that mean that if PGI were to follow BT cannon that we would end up having clan mechs with a lot of omni slots kind of like how we saw it in MW4?

Edited by Burned_Follower, 13 April 2014 - 05:52 PM.

[Koniving]

To your first question, no. Not all Clan mechs were Omni-mechs. This under Hardened Armor should be sufficient proof of that.

Quote

Clan Ghost Bear seized several examples of Hardened Armor and their Scientist and Technician Castes have created their own version. However, to the Bear's dismay the heavy plates preclude the armor from being used on OmniMechs.^[1] This means that only standard BattleMechs can benefit from the increased armor protection. By 3090, the armor would enter limited mass-production becoming more wide spread by the 32nd Century.^[2]

I haven't got an answer for your second question. However it should be noted that Inner Sphere either salvaged clan mechs or created their own Omni Mechs such as the Centurion Omni-Mech. But that took more than 50 years. On a 1:1 time scale, you won't be seeing that age any time soon.

It might be noted that Rasalhague gets them first -- mainly because they get absorbed into Clan Ghost Bear.

[Tyrnea Smurf]

Its kinda hard to say, simply because Battletech has under gone a great deal of retconning over the years.

as to the OP, yes if your knowledge of the clans spring from the Robert Thurstan Legend of the Jade Phoenix trilogy, and the original source clan books then yes, yours is a fairly accurate impression of the original introduction of the clans.

Stackpole's Blood of Kerensky trilogy with a wolf centric/ISpheroid centric plot gives the clans a slightly less monolithic creepy quality that Thurstans books do.

But then we come back around to the power of retconning. As time (and the need to sell new TRO's and sourcebooks) has marched merry forward that monolithic quality of the clans has kinda given way. They now have a history of using Armor and fighting vehicles, they use standard BattleMechs (and not just in second line garrison formations) ect.

Over at Sarna they have the Owens OmniMech designed and built by the Draconis Combine from salvage from the battle of Luthien in summer of 3052.

[Nathan Foxbane]

Tyrnea Smurf, on 13 April 2014 - 07:00 PM, said:

Over at Sarna they have the Raptor OmniMech designed and built by the Draconis Combine proof of concept in May of 3052.

FTFY

To answer the OP's second question to the best of my knowledge. In all likelihood, no, PGI will not achieve the incredible amounts of canon fail MW4 did with random omni hardpoints on 'Mechs that should not have them or a lack of pure omni hardpoints on 'Mechs that should have them. PGI's solution has been stated to take canon configurations and divide them into their body locations with a set of hardpoints related to what is mounted in the canon configuration with any fixed items being common to all configurations. These sections can then be mixed and matched from any combination of configurations for a given chassis to achieve the omni functionally of changing weapon and equipment types and locations.

[Dark DeLaurel]

Nathan Foxbane, on 13 April 2014 - 07:30 PM, said:

no, PGI will not achieve the incredible amounts of canon fail MW4 did with random omni hardpoints on 'Mechs that should not have them or a lack of pure omni hardpoints on 'Mechs that should have them.

No they just did that to the IS `Mechs allowing them true Omni status.

[Craig Steele]

Burned_Follower, on 13 April 2014 - 05:51 PM, said:

I'm only repeating something I learned about the clans about a decade ago, so I probably got this totally wrong, the reasons Clans and their tech were superior on the battlefield were:

- The pilots were the result of selective genetic breeding and possibly some tweaking as well (1)
- The pilots were trained since child hood kind of like Spartans (2)

-Since the Clans in a way are the decendants of the military force involved in the great exodus, the technology they brought with them was allowed to continue to evolve due to the Clans not being involved in the Succession wars. So bottom line, Clan tech is just basically Star League Tech if Star League Tech continued to advance if the Star League never died out. (3)

-The third thing that from what I remember reading about the Clan Mechs years ago that made them so unique(other than their mechs/weapons/ordinance was lighter) is that they were omni-mechs. (4)

-And it wasn't until some time AFTER the clan invasions that Inner Sphere folk learned from it and thus that's where we get IS Omni-Mechs (5)

Am I correct to assume that all clan mechs are omni mechs, or did I misunderstand something back then? (6)

Does that mean that if PGI were to follow BT cannon that we would end up having clan mechs with a lot of omni slots kind of like how we saw it in MW4?

(1) Correct

(2) Kinda, they are genetically bred but still have a ratio of failure. Creches are 'tested' (around 10yo apparently) and those that meet warrior criteria move into sibko's. Sibko members are trained as warriors and ultimately, have a Trial of Position. Thise who pass that Trial move inot the ranks of the warriors (generally, some Clans do it a little different)

(3) Clan society is built on the premise that they must be the best warriors possible so one day, they can save humanity from itself and return the Golden age of peace and prosperity. Accordingly, their technology is mainly focussed on improving military advancements. It's more of a culture thing than a Star Legue thing.

(4) In canon, Omni mechs are the pinnacle of mech construction. Their Pod function enable them to repair, re arm and most importanly, customise their mechs for any engagement locally. For example, fighting in close terrain, customise all mechs with jump jets and close range weapons. Fighting in a desert, switch to long range low heat weapon load outs. It was this efficiancy that made the Omni mech such a powerful military vehicle.

(5) It's not impossible IS would have come up with Omni mechs themselves (the Mercury which was the first mech with an element of customability / modules was known to the IS Star Lords) but once the succession wars broke out, Industrial and technological ability was virtually destroyed. Hence the recovery of the Helm core was probably a bigger trigger for IS Omni's but certainly their intial Omni's were "copies" of Clan ones so they definitly jump started the process.

(6) No, not all Clan mechs are Omni's. But in front line Clan formations they usually were (especially in the powerful big name Clans). Non Omni mechs (often referred to as 2nd Line) were found in Garrison / Reserve formations but were often very effective and powerful mechs in their own right by virtual of inherent tech advances.

As to your question, PGI are not following canon, IS mechs already have far more customization than was ever seen in Canon. For intensive purposes the mechs we have now are Omni mechs with only the slighest of restrictions.

[AUSSIETROOPER4]

Without knowing what random map you will be thrown into. The Clans cannot have the omni advantage.
Unless PGI give clanner the ability to customise after they load into the map\scenario.

As the poster above said the inner sphere pretty much kits out what they want in detail atm anyways.

As for the clans having better everything else, range, harder hitting weapons, better speeds, armour etc. I doubt we will see that due to balance.

P.S. I thought PGI were at least paying homage to the lore timeline.

Edited by 116th NorskaFresh, 13 April 2014 - 08:35 PM.

[Craig Steele]

116th NorskaFresh, on 13 April 2014 - 08:34 PM, said:

Without knowing what random map you will be thrown into. The Clans cannot have the omni advantage.
Unless PGI give clanner the ability to customise after they load into the map\scenario.

As the poster above said the inner sphere pretty much kits out what they want in detail atm anyways.

As for the clans having better everything else, range, harder hitting weapons, better speeds, armour etc. I doubt we will see that due to balance.

P.S. I thought PGI were at least paying homage to the lore timeline.

in Canon the Invasion started March 3050, it's April now (irl) and been "3050" since last August?

[_Comrade_]

116th NorskaFresh, on 13 April 2014 - 08:34 PM, said:

Without knowing what random map you will be thrown into. The Clans cannot have the omni advantage.
Unless PGI give clanner the ability to customise after they load into the map\scenario.

As the poster above said the inner sphere pretty much kits out what they want in detail atm anyways.

As for the clans having better everything else, range, harder hitting weapons, better speeds, armour etc. I doubt we will see that due to balance.

P.S. I thought PGI were at least paying homage to the lore timeline.

You would think they would give us an advantage considering that we are paying money to play clan mechs in what is technically a "free game"

[CyclonerM]

Dark DeLaurel, on 13 April 2014 - 07:48 PM, said:

No they just did that to the IS `Mechs allowing them true Omni status.

Incorrect. The current IS 'Mechs are even better than OmniMechs since you can change and move around every single equipment or weapon without time or money expense.

Grimwill, on 13 April 2014 - 09:38 PM, said:

You would think they would give us an advantage considering that we are paying money to play clan mechs in what is technically a "free game"

If i buy them for c-bills ( ) after June i will not pay anything ...

Edited by CyclonerM, 14 April 2014 - 04:31 AM.

[Karl Streiger]

CyclonerM, on 14 April 2014 - 04:31 AM, said:

Incorrect. The current IS 'Mechs are even better than OmniMechs since you can change and move around every single equipment or weapon without time or money expense.

Incorrect you just have to choose the right omni pods....

While you can't play arround with the engine or the structure - the low weight and space of clan equipment it shouldn't be a problem

I did said it a hundred times and will repeat it another hundred times - even if clan equipment is as "bad" as "Star League" equipment - you still have those spare weight....(the Thor as popatarter will be more effective as the Pract Poptarter (faster more mobile - and still the same weapons. (ok 2 PPCs and a Gauss are not possible - but you know what i want to say?)

Edited by Karl Streiger, 14 April 2014 - 05:42 AM.

[Dark DeLaurel]

CyclonerM, on 14 April 2014 - 04:31 AM, said:

Incorrect. The current IS 'Mechs are even better than OmniMechs since you can change and move around every single equipment or weapon without time or money expense.

ha! yes that is quite true

[Craig Steele]

Karl Streiger, on 14 April 2014 - 05:41 AM, said:

Incorrect you just have to choose the right omni pods....

While you can't play arround with the engine or the structure - the low weight and space of clan equipment it shouldn't be a problem

I did said it a hundred times and will repeat it another hundred times - even if clan equipment is as "bad" as "Star League" equipment - you still have those spare weight....(the Thor as popatarter will be more effective as the Pract Poptarter (faster more mobile - and still the same weapons. (ok 2 PPCs and a Gauss are not possible - but you know what i want to say?)

He is not "incorrect", but the correct answer depends heavily on what you prioritise.

The facts is that IS mechs can change engines, structure and armour and can therefore maximise defensive capabities.

Omnis cannot change those aspects but by configing your Omnis, you can (most likely) maximise firepower.

If you like "glass canons", Clan will be for you, if you don't, then IS mechs offer significant advantages over Omni's in the main. The exceptions will be those handful of Omni's that are already optimised on defensive equipment.

[CyclonerM]

Exactly Craig.

OmniMechs should have an advantage over the average IS BattleMech because the former will be easier to customize based on the needs of the mission and the preferences of the pilots, while the average Kurita/Steiner/Davion MechWarrior had to pilot a stock variant and nothing more. Sure, not every single Clan warrior has a customized Omni but still the possibility is there.

Many IS stock 'Mechs do not have full armor, have heavy standard engine, are slow and with 3025 weapons. In MWO you can easily mount an XL, make it faster than the average MechWarrior would have dreamed, max the armor, mount DHS on every 'Mech and get rare Star League tech with no difficulty..

[Karl Streiger]

Craig Steele, on 14 April 2014 - 06:21 AM, said:

If you like "glass canons", Clan will be for you, if you don't, then IS mechs offer significant advantages over Omni's in the main. The exceptions will be those handful of Omni's that are already optimised on defensive equipment.

A XL Fusion on a clan doesn't turn it into a glass cannon....oh hell he has shot of my left torso - great now i can fire all my weapons without danger of overheating.

[Davers]

Craig Steele, on 13 April 2014 - 08:37 PM, said:

in Canon the Invasion started March 3050, it's April now (irl) and been "3050" since last August?

http://mwomercs.com/clock

Official MW:O time puts the year at 3051

[Karl Streiger]

Davers, on 14 April 2014 - 06:54 AM, said:

http://mwomercs.com/clock

Official MW:O time puts the year at 3051

So the Clans could not be released in June - the Clan Invasion did start a new in November (maybe this time with CW?)

[Craig Steele]

Karl Streiger, on 14 April 2014 - 06:46 AM, said:

A XL Fusion on a clan doesn't turn it into a glass cannon....oh hell he has shot of my left torso - great now i can fire all my weapons without danger of overheating.

But if it doesn't have one to start with you cannot put one in. And regardless if it does have one, you cannot increase its size and speed output. Same with structure and armour type (FF)

Ergo, Clan mechs can maximise Firepower, but not defensive capabilities.

Thats the definition of a Glass cannon.

Your only maximisation on Clan mechs is firepower.

[Karl Streiger]

Craig Steele, on 14 April 2014 - 07:03 AM, said:

But if it doesn't have one to start with you cannot put one in. And regardless if it does have one, you cannot increase its size and speed output. Same with structure and armour type (FF)

Ergo, Clan mechs can maximise Firepower, but not defensive capabilities.

Thats the definition of a Glass cannon.

Your only maximisation on Clan mechs is firepower.

If and only if i buy ClanMechs for C-Bills - i don't care about the engine size - the DireWolf, the StormCrow and Thor already have the engine size i want to have.

And i wouldn't maximize the fire power - on the Thor i would add armor....on the Wolf more heatsinks less weapons....and the Stormcrow- well the Stormcrow is already perfect

[Craig Steele]

Karl Streiger, on 14 April 2014 - 07:06 AM, said:

If and only if i buy ClanMechs for C-Bills - i don't care about the engine size - the DireWolf, the StormCrow and Thor already have the engine size i want to have.

And i wouldn't maximize the fire power - on the Thor i would add armor....on the Wolf more heatsinks less weapons....and the Stormcrow- well the Stormcrow is already perfect

Right, so you prioritise firepower, np. Cyclone (might) prioritise defensive.

The point is, you're only right from one angle.

He is not incorrect.