229 replies to this topic

[Bishop Steiner]

Mcgral18, on 23 April 2014 - 02:39 PM, said:

And just remember, removal will do nothing to the Cbill Victors. All arm mounted PPCs and ACs/gauss.

Not that anyone should use arm lock on a victor....that's rather silly.

it actually still matters on cbill victors.
Because one is usually still focus in front of you and it still snaps your weapons to your most likely point of attack. But it won't matter as much as on a 3D or HGN, where you are consistently trying to line up shots. Is probably why my best option will be a HGN in the long run.

[qki]

Bishop Steiner, on 23 April 2014 - 12:05 PM, said:

I am aware of what it does. It doesn't change my opinion of it. or the need for the mechanic to be looked into.

God, people are making feel like I'm some type of uberL33T for being able to mostly stay on target without it. Thanks for that, I guess, lol.

Did I say that you were? to me, arm lock does what the little button on my mouse does (the one that changes dpi) - allow for smoother, more precise targeting for torso-mounted, long range direct fire weapons. And if you only have torso mounted weapons (like my CN9-A does), then it's a what-lock-anyway? Likewise when the target is well within your torso's cone of fire and there is no need to go outside.

The only problem that I see with it, is people forgetting to disengage the lock (if playing with default on) when they actually need to aim lower/higher/etc.

[MisterPlanetarian]

Permanently locked? Bullshit.

You need free arms to realistically preform well with lock on weapons and against lights when the fight moves up close. However, when shooting at long range within the torso's movement range, pressing shift to lock your arms massively improves convergence if your weaponsystems are split like on an Ilya Muromets or atlas for example. Especially so when firing on moving targets.

I think of it a steadying your sniper scope in a more traditional FPS.

Edited by MisterPlanetarian, 23 April 2014 - 02:54 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

qki, on 23 April 2014 - 02:49 PM, said:

Did I say that you were? to me, arm lock does what the little button on my mouse does (the one that changes dpi) - allow for smoother, more precise targeting for torso-mounted, long range direct fire weapons. And if you only have torso mounted weapons (like my CN9-A does), then it's a what-lock-anyway? Likewise when the target is well within your torso's cone of fire and there is no need to go outside.

The only problem that I see with it, is people forgetting to disengage the lock (if playing with default on) when they actually need to aim lower/higher/etc.

actually was not referring directly to your post about my "L33Tness", so much as the reasoning of a lot of posts. Yours was somewhat peripheral to that, as yes it does make a smoother transition, but many people act like their world would end without it.

The more definitive issue is how little PGI does to promote it's existence so many many many new players don't even know WHY their field of fire is so limited.

I would say that even armless mechs benefit from it being off, though. I can then move my arms to a degree they catch some incoming fire that would hit my torso, and if you are using lock on weapons, those are keyed to your arm reticle, so you will be better able to achieve and maintain target locks by being able to move the arms. (Just one of those things, like upgrading to artemis, even with streaks, that can add that little bit of edge to one's game)

MisterPlanetarian, on 23 April 2014 - 02:54 PM, said:

Permanently locked? Bullshit.

You need free arms to realistically preform well with lock on weapons and against lights when the fight moves up close. However, when shooting at long range within the torso's movement range, pressing shift to lock your arms massively improves convergence if your weaponsystems are split like on an Ilya Muromets or atlas for example. Especially so when firing on moving targets.

I think of it a steadying your sniper scope in a more traditional FPS.

And I'd be ok with it like that if it cost a .25 to .5 second of CoF or something similar to account for the weapon systems being whiplashed into place so fast. 7-30 tons of guns don't tend to take instant movement too kindly.

[ramp4ge]

I'm sorry, this is probably a stupid question, but is there a way to toggle arm lock so that it's off by default? Holding shift while in the middle of a fight while I'm managing weapons groups and spamming missiles with 3 and trying to move the 'mech with WADS sometimes gets forgotten about.

[Nyte Kitsune]

Well Bishop.. Have to admit it.. I now know that the Arm lock was indeed foolish to use.. Just ran a match without it, and even though my team lost I actually did better than usual, even managing to get a kill before I was overrun. To those of you using it.. I know tracking a target without arm lock "looks" odd, but trust me, you'll do alot better without it as it makes it alot easier to track targets.

[zazz0000]

Bishop Steiner, on 23 April 2014 - 12:57 PM, said:

... because people's consistent counter argument seems to be "OHMAHGERD I can't aim as good without it", then you really take video games way too seriously.

I haven't made that argument personally, and it seems to me like the actual majority takes a more pragmatic approach of "I use it when it's convenient".

Also you've stated a number of your opinions, so I'll try them on one at a time:

You've suggested that a feature be removed. Suggestions like this are always controversial, because even the least popular features have niches of strong supporters behind them, and an even bigger number of people simply don't mind. However unlike ghost heat or JJ shake, things that only affect certain builds and play styles, your gripe is with something that is available to anyone in either mode and at all times.

You continuously refer to it as a crutch or as training wheels, referring to arm lock as easy mode of sorts due to convergence, while at the same time citing a number of ways in which unlocked arms can benefit a situation, even possibly win a game, as in your original post. So yeah, you have two modes, both with clear tradeoffs over another. I mean, 90% of this game is customization and variation, and arm lock is just another piece.

You roll convergence into the arm lock issue. Keep that separate, pinpoint can be dealt with, and should have been dealt with, easily, and without removing any existing features. Hell, even with a miniscule amount of effort on the dev's part it can stop being an issue. But like I said, separate issue.

And as for new players - hell, agree entirely. There SHOULD be more training available. I brought a buddy into MWO less than a week ago. Had to walk him through each thing step by unintuitive step. He certainly pointed out the lack of teaching aid the game provides. And btw, I showed him how to unlock the arms, and he's been playing with it off ever since. Strikes me odd, but that's his call.

[MisterPlanetarian]

Bishop Steiner, on 23 April 2014 - 02:57 PM, said:

And I'd be ok with it like that if it cost a .25 to .5 second of CoF or something similar to account for the weapon systems being whiplashed into place so fast. 7-30 tons of guns don't tend to take instant movement too kindly.

I agree, but the main benefit is locking your arm and torso weapons into synced movement not the perfect convergence. If you don't have that the skill curve for mechs like the Atlas and the Ilya Muromets increase dramatically, primarily when shooting moving targets. I never had a problem with either before but arm lock makes them less of a hassle compared to Jagermechs and Stalkers at long range.

Having a small time penalty to lock them or unlock them is a good compromise I guess. Although I view this as a relative non issue aside from them being locked by default.

ramp4ge, on 23 April 2014 - 02:59 PM, said:

I'm sorry, this is probably a stupid question, but is there a way to toggle arm lock so that it's off by default? Holding shift while in the middle of a fight while I'm managing weapons groups and spamming missiles with 3 and trying to move the 'mech with WADS sometimes gets forgotten about.

It's in settings under gameplay I belive. It's a checkbox "Arm Lock" but also has a keybind, default is shift I think.

Edited by MisterPlanetarian, 23 April 2014 - 03:03 PM.

[Fut]

sgt kiesel, on 21 April 2014 - 10:35 PM, said:

Example of good arm lock usage:
Arm lock off, use the increased torso twist speed to get a bead on the target.
Tthen hold down shift to toggle arm lock on while firing, & instantly snap my arm lasers in line with my torso lasers and get precision damage.
Then arm lock off again while I twist to cover my CT...

Levi Porphyrogenitus, on 21 April 2014 - 10:38 PM, said:

I can understand abusing the toggle to get instant pinpoint precision for snap-fired high-alpha jump shots, but nobody in his right mind runs arm lock all the time if he is aware that it can be turned off.

Appogee, on 22 April 2014 - 12:18 AM, said:

There are many circumstances where arm lock is more tactically useful than having them unlocked... for example, to instantly focus fire on one enemy location, instead of having damage spray across two while the torso reticle catches up with the arms.

Wait. What's happening instantly with Armlock?

Coming from the same perspective as the OP here - I've never tried Arm-Lock and have no intention at this time, so forgive my confusion. What exactly does armlock do, and what's happening instantly when you turn it off/on?

Can somebody baby-step me through this?

zazz0000, on 23 April 2014 - 03:01 PM, said:

And as for new players - hell, agree entirely. There SHOULD be more training available. I brought a buddy into MWO less than a week ago. Had to walk him through each thing step by unintuitive step. He certainly pointed out the lack of teaching aid the game provides. And btw, I showed him how to unlock the arms, and he's been playing with it off ever since. Strikes me odd, but that's his call.

On a side note, is the game seriously this hard for new players to figure out?
I realize the curve is a bit steeper than usual, but stories like this really make me wonder.
Don't get me wrong though, I'm all for more training being available for people. I just don't think the game's as difficult to figure out as some of the stories make it seem.

Edited by Fut, 23 April 2014 - 03:19 PM.

[Aresye]

Bishop Steiner, on 23 April 2014 - 10:09 AM, said:

been doing that for the last night, already. And even poptarting, which I despise. As I already have stated above, I am interested in doing some work with Aresye for more scientific results. But since those require fresh accounts to accurately track, no, not just going to do it on a bet, but if Aresye and Khajja are willing to share some of the workload, then yes, I will do even deeper research. And when and if that occurs, I will gladly post.

Despite the fact it's common sense that instant convergence of arm weapons will give one higher snap accuracy that manual.

I don't think there's any need for alt accounts or anything silly. All you need is some recorded gameplay with some commentary explaining how you feel with the different settings. The viewers of the video can make the determination themselves whether accuracy has increased, decreased, or stayed the same simply by watching where the player is hitting.

Hard stats is nice an all, but that's way too much work, and (let's not kid ourselves here) it's not like PGI is going to go, "Nice study guys, we'll change this based off the awesome statistics you gathered for us."

[ramp4ge]

I'm at work so I can't check right now, but can you also set it to arm lock OFF by default and toggle ON with the shift key?

I could see arm lock being very useful for ranged laser shots, but most of the time I'd want it off. I actually just learned about it a couple days ago...

[zazz0000]

Sstaan, on 23 April 2014 - 02:59 PM, said:

Well Bishop.. Have to admit it.. I now know that the Arm lock was indeed foolish to use.. Just ran a match without it, and even though my team lost I actually did better than usual, even managing to get a kill before I was overrun. To those of you using it.. I know tracking a target without arm lock "looks" odd, but trust me, you'll do alot better without it as it makes it alot easier to track targets.

And who's this knowledgeable Sstaan person that is "Member Since Today, 02:21 PM"? Joined just a couple hours ago, doesn't know about arm lock, but has interesting things to say about the MM, 3/3/3/3, pinpoint convergence... Identifies mechs with ease... Does he know "that Atlas pilot" who decided to make his first forum post since he joined to identify himself as "that Atlas pilot"?

[Bishop Steiner]

zazz0000, on 23 April 2014 - 03:01 PM, said:

I haven't made that argument personally, and it seems to me like the actual majority takes a more pragmatic approach of "I use it when it's convenient".

Also you've stated a number of your opinions, so I'll try them on one at a time:

You've suggested that a feature be removed. Suggestions like this are always controversial, because even the least popular features have niches of strong supporters behind them, and an even bigger number of people simply don't mind. However unlike ghost heat or JJ shake, things that only affect certain builds and play styles, your gripe is with something that is available to anyone in either mode and at all times.

You continuously refer to it as a crutch or as training wheels, referring to arm lock as easy mode of sorts due to convergence, while at the same time citing a number of ways in which unlocked arms can benefit a situation, even possibly win a game, as in your original post. So yeah, you have two modes, both with clear tradeoffs over another. I mean, 90% of this game is customization and variation, and arm lock is just another piece.

You roll convergence into the arm lock issue. Keep that separate, pinpoint can be dealt with, and should have been dealt with, easily, and without removing any existing features. Hell, even with a miniscule amount of effort on the dev's part it can stop being an issue. But like I said, separate issue.

And as for new players - hell, agree entirely. There SHOULD be more training available. I brought a buddy into MWO less than a week ago. Had to walk him through each thing step by unintuitive step. He certainly pointed out the lack of teaching aid the game provides. And btw, I showed him how to unlock the arms, and he's been playing with it off ever since. Strikes me odd, but that's his call.

good post. I don't as you know entirely agree, but when stated thus, I can respect it.

I would point, that the convergence, is more or less an issue, to me, or rather HOW it is done, than the arm lock itself. I have no tissue if people want their weapons locked, per se. (I do have an issue when I lose a match because a person doesn't know that they ARE locked, however), and then unlocking as needed (even if I think in the long run, one will be better just not using it at all, I don't think it's a game breaker in such manner.)

I DO have a problem with it being used to align a perfect snapshot, instantaneously. I think to use it should thus should actually cause a momentary de-sync, before setting in, if it needs to exist, so it is still faster, than manually doing so for most people, but not how easy it is now. That IS a matter that does have to do with convergence, and convergence, is one of the biggest issues with this game.

[Bishop Steiner]

Aresye, on 23 April 2014 - 03:13 PM, said:

I don't think there's any need for alt accounts or anything silly. All you need is some recorded gameplay with some commentary explaining how you feel with the different settings. The viewers of the video can make the determination themselves whether accuracy has increased, decreased, or stayed the same simply by watching where the player is hitting.

Hard stats is nice an all, but that's way too much work, and (let's not kid ourselves here) it's not like PGI is going to go, "Nice study guys, we'll change this based off the awesome statistics you gathered for us."

While I largely agree, we did finally get hitboxes looked into (specifically, crotch boxes) and I think I have been getting the point across to the Devs about weapon modelling consistency. So I can't 10=% discount it being useful. Just 95%.

Thing is, "how it feels" is pretty ad hominem, more tna proof of anything. I can guarantee right now, I "feel" a lot better with free arms, for a number of reasons (faster, easier missile locks, arms blocking damage, fighting fast guys up close, etc). So while I am not putting any promissory dates on it, I do think I will run my little experiment, and see.

[Mcgral18]

ramp4ge, on 23 April 2014 - 03:14 PM, said:

I'm at work so I can't check right now, but can you also set it to arm lock OFF by default and toggle ON with the shift key?

I could see arm lock being very useful for ranged laser shots, but most of the time I'd want it off. I actually just learned about it a couple days ago...

Correct, you can.

It's the better way to play, in my opinion. No restrictions, unless you want more finesse.

[Bishop Steiner]

zazz0000, on 23 April 2014 - 03:19 PM, said:

And who's this knowledgeable Sstaan person that is "Member Since Today, 02:21 PM"? Joined just a couple hours ago, doesn't know about arm lock, but has interesting things to say about the MM, 3/3/3/3, pinpoint convergence... Identifies mechs with ease... Does he know "that Atlas pilot" who decided to make his first forum post since he joined to identify himself as "that Atlas pilot"?

my guess would be somebodies alt account?

Mcgral18, on 23 April 2014 - 03:23 PM, said:

Correct, you can.

It's the better way to play, in my opinion. No restrictions, unless you want more finesse.

Yeah. I don't even have it mapped, but if I was going to use it for competitive play, I would go unlocked, and have it set to hotkey on if I needed the precision. But seems like a lot of work to do something I generally do OK on without it, lol.

[Bishop Steiner]

Fut, on 23 April 2014 - 03:13 PM, said:

Wait. What's happening instantly with Armlock?

Coming from the same perspective as the OP here - I've never tried Arm-Lock and have no intention at this time, so forgive my confusion. What exactly does armlock do, and what's happening instantly when you turn it off/on?

Can somebody baby-step me through this?



On a side note, is the game seriously this hard for new players to figure out?
I realize the curve is a bit steeper than usual, but stories like this really make me wonder.
Don't get me wrong though, I'm all for more training being available for people. I just don't think the game's as difficult to figure out as some of the stories make it seem.

sadly, it appears it is.

when I heard Russ use the "New Players can't figure out the torso twist" line back when he forced in 3pV, I though, yeah, bullcrap. Took me a couple of matches to understand it, a few dozen to even forget about it as a mechanic. Then I started spectating matches more, instead of hot dropping...... and was pretty much mind blown by how bad many players are. And I don't mean it like, they are horrible and should never play, but for whatever reason, things that I never thought were a big deal really were. IDK if it's the differences in your usual FPS movement types and stuff or what, but yeah...... the learning curve really is that steep, apparently.

[Demuder]

A point you are missing Bishop is that arm lock is not counter lore or impossible to do given what a mech is. In fact, it would be much easier for the mech's tracking computer to have its arms locked to the torso instead of having them track independently. Theoretically speaking, any mechwarrior would prefer to shoot at a target with their arms locked, provided that they could track it with their torso adequately. This is of course a theoretical argument (and of course lore is taboo in MWO) but it's nice to point out that it doesn't contradict the theoretical premise mechs are built after.

One of you major points is that removing the ability to armlock, would alleviate to a point the pinpoint convergence problem. That may be so - though I doubt skilled and/or experienced players would agree - but it sounds like "Ghost heat" to me. That is, changing an irrelevant system to fix an irrelevant problem. Pinpoint, instant convergence in itself is a problem, either fix that or not. Don't go messing with other things trying to hide it. Funnily enough, if both arm lock and instant convergence were removed at the same time, people would go bonkers trying to shoot at something.

I totally disagree it is a crutch. Having the ability to armlock makes sense in lore and in game mechanics. This alone makes it not a crutch. The fact that it is an option for the player to play either way is a plus in my humble opinion. However, I do once again blame PGI for the awkward way tracking with your arms and having your torso follow works - especially how the torso "snaps" into place when it is close to the arm reticule and "pulls" the arm reticule a bit. It puts off many players and it has put me off for a pretty long time. I agree you do get used to it, but the fact that you need to get used to something is bound to stop players from using it.

The fact that people can use armlock to snap their arms is not an exploit, the fact that they can do it instantly though, is. I will agree with that.

I agree with you that toggling arm lock on/off is not adequately advertized. Personally, I would not even think of disabling it if I had not seen other people do it while spectating after dying or in youtube videos (I started playing after it was on by default). People should know that they have the option to have it on/off by default and toggle it in game should they wish to, as our brave Atlas pilot clearly demonstrated.

EDIT: Another not so relevant point explaining why many players play with arm lock is that because of the current mechanics, shooting at a target with half your weapons often feels like not shooting at all. Just saying :-)

Edited by dimstog, 24 April 2014 - 04:04 AM.

[Fut]

dimstog, on 24 April 2014 - 04:02 AM, said:

The fact that people can use armlock to snap their arms is not an exploit, the fact that they can do it instantly though, is. I will agree with that.

This is where I'm getting hung up on this issue.
Having never tried armlock, I'm not sure what to picture - but the fact that so many people are saying that it does something instantly is quite concerning, and it should not be allowed in game.

If you want your arms locked to your torso, that's great. I hope it serves you well.
But armlock on/off giving some insta-movement on the reticules sounds like a cheat.

[Bishop Steiner]

Fut, on 24 April 2014 - 04:58 AM, said:

This is where I'm getting hung up on this issue.
Having never tried armlock, I'm not sure what to picture - but the fact that so many people are saying that it does something instantly is quite concerning, and it should not be allowed in game.

If you want your arms locked to your torso, that's great. I hope it serves you well.
But armlock on/off giving some insta-movement on the reticules sounds like a cheat.

well, it's not quite truly instant, but it is bloody fast and of course, brings your weapons perfectly in line. Kind of like a sped up version of using C to center your legs and torsos, but with just a tad more impact on the meta. Essentially, it is just one more symptom of the actual problem, which is the perfect convergence in the game.

Until PGI minimizes the ways to achieve that (should it be doable? Of course. Should it be doable while jumping after running at 100+ KPH, midair, upside down, while saying the alphabet backwards? Well, I'll let common sense answer that, lol.