132 replies to this topic

[KageRyuu]

I don't see it happening in PvP, too much risk for not enough reward or fun.

But if there is a PvE element to the game, which I hope there is, I could definitely see a lot of potential for it being implemented there, especially as a secondary or even as the primary incentive for taking missions, which like in MW4 Mercenaries would be the only way for such a system to work. Especially since i don't see there being much of world outside of the lobby/hiring hall, and thus no random spawning mobs to farm for C-bills or salvage (thank god). But that's not to say that a PvE or even PvP focus on actual military missions within a field of the operation rather than the overly simplistic game modes you see in all the big names nowadays, is a bad thiing, in fact it is a good thing. After all, your not going to risk your mech for chump change, nor are you going to collect useless scrap from random spawns for a turn in at the local hiring hall. That wouldn't fit the mythos of BT and would be overplayed by every ******* MMO out there, not to mention incredibly lame.

Now back to PvP, if they choose to allow salvage as an option that everyone had to agree to in a match, I could see it working, but if all matches carried the same risk then you'd wind up with a lot of people having to farm for their favorite mech again should they lose ONCE. I put emphasis on that word because of the likelihood of lose being effectively 50% with every match. So one lose would be enough to bring you to your knees, i'm certain few would call that fun. Since MWO has the magical word ONLINE in it's title, obviously the focus is going to be multiplayer, as such if they implemented a full loot system for all multiplayer matches, few people would be able to play multiplayer for very long with such a system, thus literally shooting themselves in the foot. And the only way to make such an indiscriminate looting system feasible would be to lower the relative cost of mechs and conversely the reward one would obtain by salvaging one. if that were the case, why even bother with a salvaging system for PvP? Honestly there's really no good reason to if you want the focus of the game to be PvP.

Edited by KageRyuu, 27 November 2011 - 03:12 AM.

[Riptor]

Theres another problem that hasnt been discussed yet:

The influence of salvage on the ingame economy and progression.

Salvaging entire mechs might not be in the Devs favour.. who want to keep you playing (and in most online games this means grinding) as long as possible without agitating you to much (looking at you WoT).. cause the longer you have to play the bigger the chance that you will spend money on the cash shop to speed said progression up.

Now with salvaging entire mechs this grind to get enough cash to buy that new atlas could end in 15 minutes of a single match, making the item side of progression incredible quick and thus the chance of you spending money on the cash shop lower.

Also why would anyone buy a specific mech with RL cash for example if i could just salvage it instead? And if its more expensive to repair a salvaged mech then to buy a new one why bother in the first place?

Mind you i still believe and assume that there will be no permanent loss of mechs for a player should he get shot down.. this is not EVE where you pay monthly subscribtion fees.. In MWOs case a player might not have invested a single cent in the game and if he looses all his stuff he might just go "**** it im leaving, this game sucks!" and never come back. Where as in EVE even if you loose everything you might have put in months of subscribtion money into the game allready.. wich makes it harder to just stop playing then if you have invested nothing.

Also depending if theres something like an ingame auction house the market would be flooded with salvaged mechs, again not in the interested of the Devs in a f2p game since again it shortens progression to much.

[Belrick]

Grimm Wulf, on 26 November 2011 - 01:02 PM, said:

I picked neither options... and the reason is due to that your talking about a player actually losing their mech and/or weapons/equipment on their mech.

I don't really like the idea of this, at all. Having to spend a lot of time trying to get a hold of your stuff, only to lose it like that is not something that is actually fun. It makes the game not really be a game anymore, and more like work or something. And I do not play games because they are like work, I play games to have fun and enjoy my self, not to feel like I am at work... 40'ish hours a week of work is enough as it is.

Say NO to games feeling like work, say YES to games being fun!

That is all...

Edit: I don't mind if the "death penalty" is signficant... as in maybe a resonably high repair cost... I just do not like the idea that a player loses their mech or other stuff on it.

That is all... for real this time...

Fun and work are not exclusive, unless you are a sucker who hates your job / hobby. Also, loot and fun are not exclusive either. Putting a lot of work into something then using it successfully is arguably the most fun one can have. A good example of this is a huge fully painted tabletop game army.

A c-bill loss only doesn't solve the problem where people buy the best gear (real life money or otherwise) and just abuse the hell out of it for the duration they have it. Think at the scale of groups and lances here. If guy A has 8 *best weapon in the game* and he's boating them, and the only penalty he faces is c-bill loss, assuming he has lots of money, or his group will keep his repairs going, how do you balance this? How is this fun if you are someone who plays 'casually' (as in not a job) and comes up against someone who has grinded like it is a job?

Read my post. I'm not asking for a full loot system, I'm not even asking you lose everything when you die, but if you don't lose something, we're just going to have some sort of Combat Arms mmofps pay for stuff, + mechs.

KageRyuu, on 27 November 2011 - 03:04 AM, said:

I don't see it happening in PvP, too much risk for not enough reward or fun.

But if there is a PvE element to the game, which I hope there is, I could definitely see a lot of potential for it being implemented there, especially as a secondary or even as the primary incentive for taking missions, which like in MW4 Mercenaries would be the only way for such a system to work. Especially since i don't see there being much of world outside of the lobby/hiring hall, and thus no random spawning mobs to farm for C-bills or salvage (thank god). But that's not to say that a PvE or even PvP focus on actual military missions within a field of the operation rather than the overly simplistic game modes you see in all the big names nowadays, is a bad thiing, in fact it is a good thing. After all, your not going to risk your mech for chump change, nor are you going to collect useless scrap from random spawns for a turn in at the local hiring hall. That wouldn't fit the mythos of BT and would be overplayed by every ******* MMO out there, not to mention incredibly lame.

Now back to PvP, if they choose to allow salvage as an option that everyone had to agree to in a match, I could see it working, but if all matches carried the same risk then you'd wind up with a lot of people having to farm for their favorite mech again should they lose ONCE. I put emphasis on that word because of the likelihood of lose being effectively 50% with every match. So one lose would be enough to bring you to your knees, i'm certain few would call that fun. Since MWO has the magical word ONLINE in it's title, obviously the focus is going to be multiplayer, as such if they implemented a full loot system for all multiplayer matches, few people would be able to play multiplayer for very long with such a system, thus literally shooting themselves in the foot. And the only way to make such an indiscriminate looting system feasible would be to lower the relative cost of mechs and conversely the reward one would obtain by salvaging one. if that were the case, why even bother with a salvaging system for PvP? Honestly there's really no good reason to if you want the focus of the game to be PvP.

So you want there to be a way to pretty safely grind up the best gear and salvage in the cushion world of PvE (PvE is never dangerous, because good groups do it too well, look at just about every game ever).

And you want people to be able to just check an option that says "I want no consequences to my death, because I grinded all my stuff from pve. Salvage off please."

Doesn't sound like a good system, pardon my exaggerations.

No loss and looting and worse, PvE looting or looting that doesn't punish the losers will make for a stagnant game that favours the people with "no life" and grinders.
Full loss and full looting might just be impractical, and silly logistically too. (Can you really afford to drag 10 or so looted Mech Chassis on your dropship).

A lot of people here seem to be making comments on systems of looting and loss that they really don't seem to have had experience with. Don't talk about how looting ruins the economy or makes players not want to play or risk fighting without having played a game that actually has that sort of system.

Edited by Belrick, 27 November 2011 - 06:48 AM.

[Belrick]

Let me make a little tldr and clarify my position, should anyone care.

If one is arguing that there should be no loss of gear whatsoever, you place yourself in a bind. If you do not lose gear, you lose an incentive to keep playing (to get back lost stuff). Gear will pile up (since it cannot be destroyed) and if it piles up, there will be a pyramid of use (you always use X if X is better than Y). Mechwarrior online suddenly becomes a very gear oriented game.

Furthermore, looking at other free to plays, the only way to reliably make money if gear is not lost or destroyed is to have people rent it (You buy a large laser with X gold for Y months), and then have some sort of way to use real money to get in-game currency. This model tends to destroy any sense of balance in a game.

~

If there is a system where the losers lose a bit from salvage, and the winners gain a bit, it solves some of the problems above.

There is no more pyramid scheme when it comes to gear use, as using lesser gear can be strategically important.

Having gear be destroyed or looted creates an incentive to continue playing (to reacquire what was lost) and even if you can buy overpowered real money equipment, it does not remain in the hands of those who are willing to pay real money; if you die, it could go to someone else.

~

Having a system where gear is lost or destroyed gives incentives to keep playing, levels out the playing field, and can even be compatible with a limited pay to win system.

Keeping all of your stuff or only having to pay repair bills is very problematic, unless of course you want MWO to be some sort of WoW/Combat Arms/APB.

~

Again, so as to not just be rude and offer nothing of my own, I would suggest something along these lines (now with math)!

Round ends. If you lost a mech, from that mech: 25% of the gear is randomly given to the winning side in salvage. 25% of the gear is randomly destroyed (unsalvagable) and 50% of the gear (random again) remains in your hands. The chassis themselves will need to be repaired. [gear here could mean anything from lasers to myomer, depending on how accurate MWO will be]

This system works assuming everyone always has a starter level mech available to them. This system would not require the addition of PvE content, or even mission rewards, but either of those things could be added later without breaking the game.

My apologies for writing at length about this, but I feel it will be a crucial aspect of the game.

[ice trey]

Hmm. I like the idea of salvage a whole lot.

On the other hand, I worry that if players face a high probability of losing their 'mechs to the opponent, the game will devolve into LRM and PPC sniping from ludicrous ranges, with players terrified of the possibiity of losing their machines behind enemy lines. The Hunchback and other short-range combatants would never get used.

[Belrick]

ice trey, on 27 November 2011 - 09:28 AM, said:

Hmm. I like the idea of salvage a whole lot.

On the other hand, I worry that if players face a high probability of losing their 'mechs to the opponent, the game will devolve into LRM and PPC sniping from ludicrous ranges, with players terrified of the possibiity of losing their machines behind enemy lines. The Hunchback and other short-range combatants would never get used.

It won't devolve necessarily into LRM and ppc sniping. If they are terrified of losing their machines, they will only use mechs when it is appropriate and advantageous to use them, which is a good thing. They can't devolve into just using ranged mechs if there are say, Urban fights to consider. Every mech has a time and place.

Remember, we gotta facor offense/defence missions, terrain, and other factors (such as ECM protecthing you from LRM boaters to some degree).

That being said, my suggested system doesn't factor where exactly your mech died, just who won the round, which is all that matters, as salvage only takes place after one side holds the battlefield.

[Bloody]

3 issues with Salvage.

Cheating.
This game will apparently be f2p. So anyone with a email address will be able to create and account and play,presumably with a free start up mech. So Bob here needs some spare cash , he makes a new account, login, challenges his main account, quits and leaves his chassis on the field. Free win for his main, free salvage and free c-bils for his main account. Repeat rinse as many times as possible as required.

Rage quit
There will only be so many folk with enough gonads to struggle back from losing everything. From newbie to hard won spanking clan mech purchase, losing your chassis or equipment will make most /quit and never come back. There is only a finite number of startups even for a f2p game. Everyone that rage quits will never come back

No combat
Eventually players will realize what maps are available and refuse to play maps that do not favor there style of player. Judging by the huge amount of vehement "leetskill" sniper players in the other threads, they will refuse to engage in a urban setting, ignoring fights that take place in Urban settings where they LR ERPPC or ERLaser or MIssle Boat etc will dominate.

Edited by Bloody, 27 November 2011 - 12:41 PM.

[Bloody]

Belrick, on 27 November 2011 - 11:11 AM, said:

It won't devolve necessarily into LRM and ppc sniping. If they are terrified of losing their machines, they will only use mechs when it is appropriate and advantageous to use them, which is a good thing. They can't devolve into just using ranged mechs if there are say, Urban fights to consider. Every mech has a time and place.

Remember, we gotta facor offense/defence missions, terrain, and other factors (such as ECM protecthing you from LRM boaters to some degree).

That being said, my suggested system doesn't factor where exactly your mech died, just who won the round, which is all that matters, as salvage only takes place after one side holds the battlefield.

no, players will eventually know what maps are which and the missle, laser or gauss range boats will simply not play in maps which do not favor them.

[Cattra Kell]

Bloody, on 27 November 2011 - 12:42 PM, said:

no, players will eventually know what maps are which and the missle, laser or gauss range boats will simply not play in maps which do not favor them.

That still has nothing wrong with what Belrick has said. That is a problem with elitist players who will not play because they won't have the advantage, which when it comes to planet conquest mode, you may not have a choice in what map you play or the rules that go with it. With that being said, if players DO know what maps work great with what weapons then it becomes an optimization fest and that is also not a bad thing, if players are researching and know ahead of time and try to perform tactics, then the other team will also know and account for that.

[Belrick]

Bloody, on 27 November 2011 - 12:41 PM, said:

3 issues with Salvage.

Cheating.
This game will apparently be f2p. So anyone with a email address will be able to create and account and play,presumably with a free start up mech. So Bob here needs some spare cash , he makes a new account, login, challenges his main account, quits and leaves his chassis on the field. Free win for his main, free salvage and free c-bils for his main account. Repeat rinse as many times as possible as required.

Other games deal with that very nicely. EVE online is a decent example: it is simply not valuable to farm the starter ship. You could do it, but to get anything of value out of it would take a very long time. Inhuman amounts of stamina and time would be required to pull this off, to the point where only bots could do it. Cutting down on botting is a normal activity of game GMs, and so would not be a problem.

Bloody, on 27 November 2011 - 12:41 PM, said:

Rage quit
There will only be so many folk with enough gonads to struggle back from losing everything. From newbie to hard won spanking clan mech purchase, losing your chassis or equipment will make most /quit and never come back. There is only a finite number of startups even for a f2p game. Everyone that rage quits will never come back

Everyone always says they ragequit and some do and some don't. If people know what they are getting into when they do it, it won't be a problem. Plenty of games don't have problems with mass rage quitting.

Quite frankly the easiest way to kill F2P games isn't ragequitting over losing stuff, but ragequitting over people having better overpowered stuff, which will be a real problem if you keep everything.

Bloody, on 27 November 2011 - 12:41 PM, said:

No combat
Eventually players will realize what maps are available and refuse to play maps that do not favor there style of player. Judging by the huge amount of vehement "leetskill" sniper players in the other threads, they will refuse to engage in a urban setting, ignoring fights that take place in Urban settings where they LR ERPPC or ERLaser or MIssle Boat etc will dominate.

Okay, so refuse to fight on the urban map, and then lose your merc campaign / match to the guys who will fight on it. Sounds good to me. I can't wait for that to happen actually. I'll fight as an uberleet sniper on uberleet sniper maps, and as a brawler on brawler maps. I could win the first and the second, while they can only win the second. Win win for me. Free wins for the people who will play.


Quite frankly, at the end of the day, why should we have to cater to uberleet sniper rage quit types? I've offered alternatives in a f2p model that allows the company to make money and create a decent player base and attitude. These counter offers give ways to create a crappy player base and make money.

Which do you want?

Edited by Belrick, 27 November 2011 - 03:59 PM.

[dm5k]

ice trey, on 27 November 2011 - 09:28 AM, said:

Hmm. I like the idea of salvage a whole lot.

On the other hand, I worry that if players face a high probability of losing their 'mechs to the opponent, the game will devolve into LRM and PPC sniping from ludicrous ranges, with players terrified of the possibiity of losing their machines behind enemy lines. The Hunchback and other short-range combatants would never get used.

I agree with this. I like the idea of salvage so that players will be more cautious with their precious equipment. But at the same time I would not want to use an in fighter type of mech because of the higher risk of damage and focus fire. It would also make me avoid at all costs playing against an elite team (good players like to stick together).

I definitely want to try out an in your face mech like the hunchback but if the penalties are to high from losing a battle NO ONE will use them.

[Thrall]

The only way I see salvage being implemented into the game is if there is a cap on it and liquidation option's available. That way you cannot have unlimited and monsterous amounts of weapons, parts, and maybe chassies on "rare" occasions... I cannot see a limit on C-Bills however, but I do know that there has to be many options avaiable for players to spend that money, not just on mechs/weapons and transportation, but also to assist the Mech Companies (Guilds) that they have joined as well in various ways.

To be blunt, if there is any chance of having salvage in the game, there has to be caps in place on it.

Huh.. I failed to mention the structure of this idea..

You have three different means of income

Salvage points (Currency) - Capped somewhere around to the point that you could purchase an Atlas or just a little higher than that. (Even higher if you donated it into your Mech Company(Guild)'s.. Treasury/funding I guess you can call it? Can be used for trade, for parts, chassies, weapons, C'Bills or even to deploy certain equipment onto the battlefield next time you are out there - list goes on...

Salvage parts (Equipment) - Weapons, armor, arms, legs, and so on, just bits and piece you can sell for salvage points or C-Bills or perhaps constructing a brand new Mech from these acquire parts at the cost of salvage points or C,Bills.

C.Bills - (Currency) - Can be used to purchase anything that is available in the game, even for salvage points that may be used for other purposes like construction of a make-shirt part mech.

You require both salvage points and C-Bills to put together a Mech, built from the salvaged parts you acquire during the course of many battles that you participate in. Salvage points are lack for a better word miscellaneous items that you would require to even build anything properly, such as curcuits and wires or half destroyed armor plating. Let your imagination just run wild on the idea, but that's just what I see salvage points being and you can only have so much of it.

So I guess this is just my general idea on how salvage should work... And that you can use salvage/c-bills to deploy equipment onto the battlefield. Personally the previous sentance alone should give an idea as to how salvage can be obtained, nor only from opponents mechs such as scrap armor plating or broken equipment, but also you can take the enemies deployed equipment from the battlefield after you have won the battle of course and it be added into your own list of parts or points, or even your C-Bill stash.

(Head hurts, stopping for now and ponder more about this later)

Edited by Thrall, 27 November 2011 - 06:59 PM.

[Tweaks]

Riptor, on 27 November 2011 - 06:03 AM, said:

Theres another problem that hasnt been discussed yet:

The influence of salvage on the ingame economy and progression.

Salvaging entire mechs might not be in the Devs favour.. who want to keep you playing (and in most online games this means grinding) as long as possible without agitating you to much (looking at you WoT).. cause the longer you have to play the bigger the chance that you will spend money on the cash shop to speed said progression up.

Now with salvaging entire mechs this grind to get enough cash to buy that new atlas could end in 15 minutes of a single match, making the item side of progression incredible quick and thus the chance of you spending money on the cash shop lower.

Also why would anyone buy a specific mech with RL cash for example if i could just salvage it instead? And if its more expensive to repair a salvaged mech then to buy a new one why bother in the first place?

Mind you i still believe and assume that there will be no permanent loss of mechs for a player should he get shot down.. this is not EVE where you pay monthly subscribtion fees.. In MWOs case a player might not have invested a single cent in the game and if he looses all his stuff he might just go "**** it im leaving, this game sucks!" and never come back. Where as in EVE even if you loose everything you might have put in months of subscribtion money into the game allready.. wich makes it harder to just stop playing then if you have invested nothing.

Also depending if theres something like an ingame auction house the market would be flooded with salvaged mechs, again not in the interested of the Devs in a f2p game since again it shortens progression to much.

I wholeheartedly support his point of view. Allowing the salvage of a whole 'Mech makes no sense in a F2P game. In any online game for that matter. Especially since I expect the main game mode to be a sort of assault (or conquest) where the primary goal is to destroy all enemies. That means every game you play, you'd have a minimum of 50% chance of losing your 'Mech to the enemy. Those odds are way too high.

The ONLY way I see how salvage could be enabled is to have an optional hard-core mode where an avatar dies for real when he gets killed in battle. Sort of like the hard-core mode of Diablo III. An account could only be oen mode at a time, hard-core or regular, and wouldn't be able to switch from one to the other.

[CaveHermit]

How about this idea. All salvage is converted to C-bills and split amongst the winning team. Loosing team still get C-bills for the match. Might be enough to recover loosing that Atlas.. Might not. But if your on the loosing team running a T-Bolt. You might break even on the repair costs. If your Running a Jenner. Even a loss might net you a nice pile after repairs.

The bigger the mech the more likely your going to have to run in lights to get it repaired again.

In WoT I'm using a Level 5 and 6 tank and making a nice profit after repairs per match (even on a loss). But with my Rank 8 or 9 I better win even time or starting to go into the negative just to get it running again.


Basically All salvage should be converted into C-Bills. You keep your mech if your get flamed. It just costs out the **** to repair it.

[Belrick]

Thrall, on 27 November 2011 - 06:57 PM, said:

The only way I see salvage being implemented into the game is if there is a cap on it and liquidation option's available. That way you cannot have unlimited and monsterous amounts of weapons, parts, and maybe chassies on "rare" occasions... I cannot see a limit on C-Bills however, but I do know that there has to be many options avaiable for players to spend that money, not just on mechs/weapons and transportation, but also to assist the Mech Companies (Guilds) that they have joined as well in various ways.

I agree in principal with your post: we have to find a way to preventing people from stockpiling endless hordes of mechs and parts. Losing gear through a salvage system is part of this, and so would hard caps on mech / hanger capacity. It'll be interesting to see how they handle this.

CaveHermit, on 27 November 2011 - 08:07 PM, said:

How about this idea. All salvage is converted to C-bills and split amongst the winning team. Loosing team still get C-bills for the match. Might be enough to recover loosing that Atlas.. Might not. But if your on the loosing team running a T-Bolt. You might break even on the repair costs. If your Running a Jenner. Even a loss might net you a nice pile after repairs.

The bigger the mech the more likely your going to have to run in lights to get it repaired again.

In WoT I'm using a Level 5 and 6 tank and making a nice profit after repairs per match (even on a loss). But with my Rank 8 or 9 I better win even time or starting to go into the negative just to get it running again.

Basically All salvage should be converted into C-Bills. You keep your mech if your get flamed. It just costs out the **** to repair it.

Yeah, perhaps losers would still get salvage for kills they make, even if they lose. Sounds decent. It even means that on a strategic level, you could "lose" a match, but win the battle. You killed more valuable mechs on their side losing less, but lost the battlefield.

Good stuff, and I think WoT is a nice game to draw from for comparisons.

Tweaks, on 27 November 2011 - 07:25 PM, said:

I wholeheartedly support his point of view. Allowing the salvage of a whole 'Mech makes no sense in a F2P game. In any online game for that matter. Especially since I expect the main game mode to be a sort of assault (or conquest) where the primary goal is to destroy all enemies. That means every game you play, you'd have a minimum of 50% chance of losing your 'Mech to the enemy. Those odds are way too high.

I'm glad you didn't bother to engage in discussion with me, seeing as I addressed your concern on salvage in a f2p model directly.

Tweaks, on 27 November 2011 - 07:25 PM, said:

The ONLY way I see how salvage could be enabled is to have an optional hard-core mode where an avatar dies for real when he gets killed in battle. Sort of like the hard-core mode of Diablo III. An account could only be oen mode at a time, hard-core or regular, and wouldn't be able to switch from one to the other.

Again, that is not the "ONLY" way. I proposed a decent system that stops short of some sort of two tiered hardcore mode. Thrall's post above your's also had a decent proposal. Cavehermit had a good idea as well, drawing from another F2P game.

Discussion in a thread implies reading posts. Let's read posts here people.

Edited by Belrick, 27 November 2011 - 08:29 PM.

[Thrall]

Tweaks, on 27 November 2011 - 07:25 PM, said:

The ONLY way I see how salvage could be enabled is to have an optional hard-core mode where an avatar dies for real when he gets killed in battle. Sort of like the hard-core mode of Diablo III. An account could only be oen mode at a time, hard-core or regular, and wouldn't be able to switch from one to the other.

If something like this was to be implemented in the game, I would never recommend a permanant hardcore mode mech/avatar.

However, you did have something here and allow me to have my own idea on this, rather simple, but effective.

The idea for a hardcore mode/match "should" be to risk your own mech for a large amount of prizes, - i only see three viable and "balanced" prizes in mind.

1. Large amounts of salvage/c-bills -
2. Very high market value weapons/armor/equipment might appear in the list.
3. Other players mechs that you personally did the most damage to/destroyed. (Although everyone on the winning team has a chance to win the mechs for themselves, the losing team still may be able to keep their mechs.)

This should only be optional though, not forced on other players.

This idea however can be exploited sadly, unless hardcore mode is more strict than it would normally be.

Edited by Thrall, 27 November 2011 - 08:49 PM.

[Tweaks]

Belrick, on 27 November 2011 - 08:26 PM, said:

Again, that is not the "ONLY" way. I proposed a decent system that stops short of some sort of two tiered hardcore mode. Thrall's post above your's also had a decent proposal. Cavehermit had a good idea as well, drawing from another F2P game.

Discussion in a thread implies reading posts. Let's read posts here people.

I'm sorry but I'm not going to read 4 full pages of a thread just because I wish to comment on the opinion of ONE of the posters. I saw Riptor's post and it represented the whole of what I think about salvage in general, so I commented. Whether someone else posted something along the same lines further is irrelevant. I still think the same.

To reply to Thrall: Hardcore can only work if it's exclusive. meaning that a player created in hardcore mode can't play in normal mode. Otherwise, you'd have way too much of an advantage over normal players. You just can't mix both.

Edited by Tweaks, 27 November 2011 - 09:02 PM.

[Thrall]

Tweaks, on 27 November 2011 - 08:59 PM, said:

To reply to Thrall: Hardcore can only work if it's exclusive. meaning that a player created in hardcore mode can't play in normal mode. Otherwise, you'd have way too much of an advantage over normal players. You just can't mix both.

You have a good point with the exclusive, but in doing so players who make new mechs solely for hardcore would be greatly disadvantaged.. perhaps they can convert a mech of their choosing at any given time into hardcore mode? (Don't take this one to serious, it is only a thought) Perhaps restrict trades between hardcore and regular mechs.. That way you cannot unbalance the regular matches by bringing in hardcore equipment.

And you would be unable to convert your hardcore mechs and equipment (regular mechs converted to hardcore and mechs won in hardcore) back into regular matches.

(add-on)

It's interesting how Salvage turned into making two near completely separate wars. Maybe we need a new topic on just hardcore in general? However salvage and hardcore seem to be now intertwined.

For balancing the game and the wants of PvPers, we need to have the risk of losing our mechs to the enemy if we are destroyed.

Perhaps only a 5%-10% chance of losing your own mech when your own mech is destroyed in battle "and" only when you lose the match.

And a 65% chance to lose your mech in a hardcore mode - only when you lose and your mech is destroyed. However only a 15%-20% chance to lose your mech if it is destroyed to the enemy only. Not to your allies so that they are able to acquire your stuff.

And a 5%-10% to lose your mech even if you were to escape the battlefield, depending on just how damaged your mech is and how many allies also survived the battle to decrease those odds (or increase them depending also on how many enemy units survived.) - This last sentance should not be taken serious, it is only a suggestion due to the idea that if a large number of the enemy is alive and not too damaged, that they could decide to come after you are your near destroyed mech.

Edited by Thrall, 27 November 2011 - 09:34 PM.

[Haeso]

Bloody, on 27 November 2011 - 12:41 PM, said:

3 issues with Salvage.

Cheating.
This game will apparently be f2p. So anyone with a email address will be able to create and account and play,presumably with a free start up mech. So Bob here needs some spare cash , he makes a new account, login, challenges his main account, quits and leaves his chassis on the field. Free win for his main, free salvage and free c-bils for his main account. Repeat rinse as many times as possible as required.

Rage quit
There will only be so many folk with enough gonads to struggle back from losing everything. From newbie to hard won spanking clan mech purchase, losing your chassis or equipment will make most /quit and never come back. There is only a finite number of startups even for a f2p game. Everyone that rage quits will never come back

No combat
Eventually players will realize what maps are available and refuse to play maps that do not favor there style of player. Judging by the huge amount of vehement "leetskill" sniper players in the other threads, they will refuse to engage in a urban setting, ignoring fights that take place in Urban settings where they LR ERPPC or ERLaser or MIssle Boat etc will dominate.

1: Free mechs cannot be sold/salvaged, are moderately weaker. Does this mean using them gives you a better risk/reward? Yes. But it also means you're more likely to lose and protects the economy, a fair trade as long as the free mechs are weaker.

2: Free mechs as I mentioned negate this, you might lose your shiny atlas, but you'd still have a free 80-90 ton Assault, presumably one of each weight class and/or role archetype. They will put you at a disadvantage power wise in exchange for giving you no risk and all reward. Excluding mission success, success would need to actually be valuable, unlike say MW4 Mercs where mission success was almost entirely irrelevant compared to salvage, I made more than ten times out of salvage than merc contract payment..

3: There's nothing wrong with players choosing to fight in an environment that favors them. Simply make more lethal missions reward more cash from the contract: Ie; a search and destroy mission would result in much higher casualities on both sides than multi-objective based maps, and say an attack/defend map would have even higher death rate than that if it's only one location to defend/attack as it'd be one large battle until one side wins or the other side retreats.

You could also make it so accepting a random location assignment rewards more, so that if like you assume, urban combat has less players, random would likely put you in an urban fight and pay out more, so you'd be rewarded for tactical flexibility.

[EDMW CSN]

If starter mechs are implemented this way, this should not be a problem.

Starter Mechs
1) Starter mechs given to you by your House or whatever House that is supplying your band of merc misfits.

2) Starter mechs CANNOT be SOLD, only allowed to be modified to a VERY LIMITED degree and cannot be traded or gifted to another person.

3) Starter mechs are not applicable for salvage, yes it is a weird rule, but it will help against farming.

4) You don't have to pay C-bills for them and your House will take care of the repair or replacement bill but will be slow.

If your mech is damaged and needs repair, the House will take care of it, so you can take another mech in your initial starter choice if you need to get another mission going, otherwise you can sit out till your ride is patched up.
If your mech was totally wrecked and destroyed, replacements will take awhile to arrive, so you gotta make do.


What can you do with them ?
1) If you want to speed up the replacement rate or repair rate, you can offer to pay a better in house tech rather than their fresh out of mechanical college, on the job training college technicians.

Similarly you can request for expedited shipping to allow your mechs to come in sooner.
Those cost some C-bills of course.


2) Limited modification. For example you can elbow grease around 5 tons on your Atlas or maybe 2.5 tons on a Centurion. (5% of mech tonnage) But anything else, a bit FAT NO. These are House mechs mind you.


If you stick customized parts into the starter mech and if they are destroyed, sorry they are GONE.

For example you have ripped out the ASK7-D SRM6 and shoehorn in a nice ER LL to complement your LRM20. Then the ERLL is destroyed. That is gone. The house tech will simply take the standard config and re-tune your mech to the original specs.

Edited by [EDMW]CSN, 28 November 2011 - 01:39 AM.