128 replies to this topic

[Blacksoul1987]

DV McKenna, on 22 January 2015 - 01:52 AM, said:

All the unnecessary hate for windows 8, does a different UI really bug you guys that much?

At a base install level Windows 8 uses less system resources than 7, which translates into snappier performance out of the box.


As for Windows 10, people would have to be on the extreme ends of madness not to take up the free upgrade offer within the first 12 months, i can understand people wanting to wait 6-9 months to let the dust settle but to say never? really.......

I can certainly see MS game plan, offer it out for free hopefully unifying and boosting its market share onto a single OS that will also push DX12 into the mainstream as opposed to having some limited to 10 or 11 and not 12.
It would certainly be better for the gaming community for DX12 to become mainstream.
MWO works fine on the TP so the release candidate should be no different.

But given how long it took PGI to half adopt DX 11 i wouldn't expect them to code for DX 12 anytime soon.

I opted for windows 8 when I built my new rig the ui takes 5 min to get used to really and system is snappy.

[Catamount]

DV McKenna, on 22 January 2015 - 01:52 AM, said:

All the unnecessary hate for windows 8, does a different UI really bug you guys that much?

I guess some people aren't all that good at adapting to something like a simple UI change? It's moot in any case, W10 is basically just 7 with six years of needed updates and 8's superior performance (or better). People act like they're special for not liking 8, well no one liked 8 and MS knows it. It wasn't bad, it wasn't ME, but people want start menus and desktop focus back. Well guess what 10 is?

Bill Lumbar, on 22 January 2015 - 02:29 AM, said:

Well my results with build 9841 is not looking to hot right at the moment. Just played one game after getting the game patched, and updating Windows 10. I can not get the 64 bit client to run so far, it comes up a error and a fail to start message. It does run in 32 bit, but like I said... I ran a fraps bench mark and its not looking to hot right now. I will test more later today when I get a chance.

Btw... yeah, I am on a 64-bit build.

That's a fairly obsolete build, not sure if that would make a difference. I'm on 9879, and I'm not even on the fast-update setting (get quicker updates, but deal with more instability; I didn't like the tradeoff).

MWO never failed to simply install and play for me. Of course, if you're also somehow managing to achieve worse performance than 7 by some miraculous means or another, then I'd say there's certainly a problem somewhere, but I couldn't quite guess where since I assume your drivers are up to date. 32 vs 64 bit shouldn't even matter. Neither I, nor anyone else I'm aware of, has ever scientifically recorded any difference in performance. Your apparent bad performance has a cause laying somewhere else.

If, as DV says, this problem appears in all Windows versions my guess is something is wrong with the game install itself.

Edited by Catamount, 22 January 2015 - 06:19 AM.

[Bill Lumbar]

DV McKenna, on 22 January 2015 - 05:03 AM, said:

People have had said problem the fail to launch on 64bit in Windows 7 and 8 not sure if anyone found the root cause of the problem tho.

I have no issues on Launching 64 bit client in Windows 7 to date, its running fine on 7.

Edited by Bill Lumbar, 22 January 2015 - 08:34 AM.

[Bill Lumbar]

Catamount, on 22 January 2015 - 06:16 AM, said:

I guess some people aren't all that good at adapting to something like a simple UI change? It's moot in any case, W10 is basically just 7 with six years of needed updates and 8's superior performance (or better). People act like they're special for not liking 8, well no one liked 8 and MS knows it. It wasn't bad, it wasn't ME, but people want start menus and desktop focus back. Well guess what 10 is?



That's a fairly obsolete build, not sure if that would make a difference. I'm on 9879, and I'm not even on the fast-update setting (get quicker updates, but deal with more instability; I didn't like the tradeoff).

MWO never failed to simply install and play for me. Of course, if you're also somehow managing to achieve worse performance than 7 by some miraculous means or another, then I'd say there's certainly a problem somewhere, but I couldn't quite guess where since I assume your drivers are up to date. 32 vs 64 bit shouldn't even matter. Neither I, nor anyone else I'm aware of, has ever scientifically recorded any difference in performance. Your apparent bad performance has a cause laying somewhere else.

If, as DV says, this problem appears in all Windows versions my guess is something is wrong with the game install itself.

I did a fresh install, and played like one or two games this morning and had to get some sleep. I am also guessing that it may be the build number also, but at this point who knows. I have tried to update the build number, but they are not allowing me to do so as of right now. The site says check back soon and coming soon. I have installed the omega drivers for my 7970 3gb and I believe all related Amd drivers from Gybibites website, using Windows 8.1 drivers. I will play with it a bit more today and see if I can get better results. From what they have said at Microsoft, every new build has a lot added to it, and is more stable...? We will see, but I am not holding my breath guys. As for running MWO in 64 mode.... I noticed a difference on my Windows 7 build in smoothness and speed in the IU after switching to the 64 mode, I am running 16 gb of ram.

I have to laugh at the comment that some just can not adapt to a new IU or OS.... I am simply not on of those "types" of people. I have legit reasons as to why I didn't care for 8 or 8.1 and also reason's why not to believe all the hype and BS regarding 10. If Microsoft gets their heads out of their a$$ and pulls off a win with Windows 10, great, I will install it on my system, but I have around 6 computers running at my house, and there will be no way I will install it on more then 1 of them given the direction MS seems to be going as of late, or maybe they have been headed there along?

Edited by Bill Lumbar, 22 January 2015 - 08:41 AM.

[Pugnax]

The fact that windows 8, 8.1, were marketed towards touch-screen products was a major issue for me. If I don't bring a mouse with me and need to use my laptop somewhere I'm constantly triggering annoying touch features. This isn't a problem for desktops but the prospect of upgrading towards a more 7ish OS seems nice.

Edited by Pugnax, 22 January 2015 - 08:52 AM.

[Bill Lumbar]

These are my fraps bench mark runs from a hold/attack on Boral. These numbers are way down from what I see on my Windows 7 OS VS. this build version of Windows 10. Once again, build 9841, and I can't update yet to the newer build because its not ready yet.

2015-01-22 12:04:28 - MWOClient
Frames: 5282 - Time: 160000ms - Avg: 33.013 - Min: 17 - Max: 52

2015-01-22 12:09:03 - MWOClient
Frames: 6199 - Time: 160000ms - Avg: 38.744 - Min: 27 - Max: 68

2015-01-22 12:16:13 - MWOClient
Frames: 4332 - Time: 160000ms - Avg: 27.075 - Min: 14 - Max: 41

2015-01-22 12:30:05 - MWOClient
Frames: 5584 - Time: 160000ms - Avg: 34.900 - Min: 24 - Max: 45

[Bill Lumbar]

Bill Lumbar, on 22 January 2015 - 09:38 AM, said:

These are my fraps bench mark runs from a hold/attack on Boral. These numbers are way down from what I see on my Windows 7 OS VS. this build version of Windows 10. Once again, build 9841, and I can't update yet to the newer build because its not ready yet.

2015-01-22 12:04:28 - MWOClient
Frames: 5282 - Time: 160000ms - Avg: 33.013 - Min: 17 - Max: 52

2015-01-22 12:09:03 - MWOClient
Frames: 6199 - Time: 160000ms - Avg: 38.744 - Min: 27 - Max: 68

2015-01-22 12:16:13 - MWOClient
Frames: 4332 - Time: 160000ms - Avg: 27.075 - Min: 14 - Max: 41

2015-01-22 12:30:05 - MWOClient
Frames: 5584 - Time: 160000ms - Avg: 34.900 - Min: 24 - Max: 45

In defense of Microsoft's bad ass shiny new OS,(or not so shiny depending on how you see it) I am running two 7200 rpm drives in raid 0 vs. a Samsung 840 pro SSD 512gb drive. I don't have another SSD drive free at the moment to test it on...and given the fact that the 64 bit version of MWO isn't loading up, I am not really sure I want to at this point till I can update to the latest build. Anyone know a ETA on when Microsoft will make it ready for downloading and updating?

[xWiredx]

Anybody run the numbers on an Intel box or with an Nvidia GPU? Bill, you're using an ATI card, correct? Wonder if it might have something to do with driver immaturity or something.

Test builds are one thing I don't do. Not because they're scary, but because I like a certain level of polish before I install something. I used to do test builds (actual Vista beta tester) but I found that it was always annoying when I would get to like certain aspects and as new builds were provided things changed relatively quickly. A lot of the initial concepts behind Vista were really neat, and M$ kept taking them out or changing them and the end result was something not many people liked.

[Bill Lumbar]

xWiredx, on 22 January 2015 - 11:00 AM, said:

Anybody run the numbers on an Intel box or with an Nvidia GPU? Bill, you're using an ATI card, correct? Wonder if it might have something to do with driver immaturity or something.

Test builds are one thing I don't do. Not because they're scary, but because I like a certain level of polish before I install something. I used to do test builds (actual Vista beta tester) but I found that it was always annoying when I would get to like certain aspects and as new builds were provided things changed relatively quickly. A lot of the initial concepts behind Vista were really neat, and M$ kept taking them out or changing them and the end result was something not many people liked.

I agree about Vista.... and I didn't get in on the testing part of it, I just jumped right in after it was first released and never had a problem with it on any of my rigs. I think Vista was a step in the right direction for MS, but then again I didn't try to install it on rigs with only 1 gb of ram, or a single core CPU. I wasn't using 7 year old printers with it, and one of the biggest reasons that Vista pissed so many off I think is not because of MS vision for it, but more along the lines that many of the software and hardware developers didn't get behind it and support it with drivers.

Yes I am running a ATI XFX 7970 GB card, with the newest omega driver and it works great in 7, I saw a nice increase in frame rates after installing it, and plus running the 64 bit client. Things seemed much smoother in CW, really didn't notice a huge bump in regular solo matches, but still a improvement. I think the build number I am running and the lack of the SSD is a big part of the issue, not the Amd omega drivers. I could be wrong.... but so far I am really not impressed with Windows 8, 8.1, or Windows 10.

[xWiredx]

My laptop is Win8.1, but it's a laptop. I haven't run any performance numbers on it so I couldn't say. I don't think anybody said performance was simply leagues better, I think the only thing anybody has really said is that it runs "fine" and the weird hiccup we would see every so often doesn't happen.

[Bill Lumbar]

Smokeyjedi, on 21 January 2015 - 03:48 PM, said:

From whats been spoken about Win10 its THE gaming OS. MS has geared it towards gamers....

Ummm yeah..... I could be mistaken but this kinda does imply that its gonna be way better. It just looks like the same old ****, with some polish on it so far. Who knows, maybe MS will hit it out of the park this time around, hard to say. I do find it rather funny that MS already tried to gear their newest OS to Tabs and phones users, but in the end look how that turned out.

[Flapdrol]

Being the only OS with dx12 will automatically make it the best gaming OS.

Luckily they made the upgrade free, otherwise they'd have a lot of pissed off people agian, and developers wouldn't bother with dx12 if everybody was still on win7 and 8.

[cSand]

Windows 10 is built off 8.1 so anything that runs on 7 it should run just fine in 10, in theory.

8.1/10 is lighter weight than 7 ever was. 7 was great but is showing its age now and is comparitively slow and inefficient.

8 itself was a trainwreck but 8.1 is pretty good. Some of the older folk can't handle losing the start menu but it was, IMO, inefficient anyways

10 is a preview now and not even finished so trying to run it now is foolish!

Edited by cSand, 22 January 2015 - 12:06 PM.

[Bill Lumbar]

Flapdrol, on 22 January 2015 - 11:55 AM, said:

Being the only OS with dx12 will automatically make it the best gaming OS.

Luckily they made the upgrade free, otherwise they'd have a lot of pissed off people agian, and developers wouldn't bother with dx12 if everybody was still on win7 and 8.

Many said the same about DX10 and DX11..... yet many gamers could care less, and if I am not mistaken some MWO are still running DX9 because of issues with this game and Dx11.

https://www.youtube....-yt-cl=84411374

Edited by Bill Lumbar, 22 January 2015 - 12:40 PM.

[Kuritaclan]

Tank, on 21 January 2015 - 12:54 PM, said:

Yes, the transition will be free. They confirmed this in online translation of Windows 10 today.

And I don't understand your problems, MWO works great on Windows 8.1. It may work better on Windows 10, but it will most likely require Direct X 12.

It's hard to tell how munch work and time it will require PGI to add DX12 support for MWO, biggest question here: will it be worth it?

Yes it will be since DX 12 will have changes to Low Lvl API and push performance like Mantel for older and smaller CPUs, what will help many users in MWO, since this game eat CPU performance for breakfast.

[Catamount]

Bill Lumbar, on 22 January 2015 - 08:25 AM, said:

I did a fresh install, and played like one or two games this morning and had to get some sleep. I am also guessing that it may be the build number also, but at this point who knows. I have tried to update the build number, but they are not allowing me to do so as of right now. The site says check back soon and coming soon. I have installed the omega drivers for my 7970 3gb and I believe all related Amd drivers from Gybibites website, using Windows 8.1 drivers. I will play with it a bit more today and see if I can get better results. From what they have said at Microsoft, every new build has a lot added to it, and is more stable...? We will see, but I am not holding my breath guys. As for running MWO in 64 mode.... I noticed a difference on my Windows 7 build in smoothness and speed in the IU after switching to the 64 mode, I am running 16 gb of ram.

MWO doesn't care if you have 16GB of RAM or 128GB of RAM. It uses like 1.5. The address limit change has no impact on the game.

Anyways, Windows isn't updated via a site. Windows is updated via Windows. If you're running a build as far back as 9841, which is like literally the very beginning of the Tech Preview, there is an update for you. Hell, if you were to install every major build since that in order it'd be like 30 updates. That build is from EARLY SEPTEMBER!

Quote

I have to laugh at the comment that some just can not adapt to a new IU or OS.... I am simply not on of those "types" of people. I have legit reasons as to why I didn't care for 8 or 8.1

So far the only reasons you've given to dislike anything about Microsoft is "they have their heads up their asses" which isn't actually an argument about UIs, or anything, and "I don't want my computer being an Xbox", which, well, also isn't an argument about anything. Neither is a specific objection that actually identifies what you don't like.

I was annoyed by 8 too, for like an hour. Then I put my big boy pants on and learned to use it as easily and efficiently as anything else. I still think it's ahead of any of the Linux UIs, including Unity, but that's neither here nor there, because either you can use computers or you can't. No UI is so inept that it should ever slow you down or even cause you to take notice of it. Well, okay, OSX gets there some days.


Anyways, 10 isn't 8, so it's moot. Disliking 8 is not reason to think anything about 10. 10 does everything right, no it's not "revolutionary" because we've had GUIs for four decades and nothing is revolutionary, but it puts everything where it needs to be and gives no reason for anyone to not enjoy the substantial performance increases, reduced overhead, decreased start times, etc, vs past versions. It is the "same old ****", and so what? You say that like that's opposed to it being something else, and yet, there's nothing else it should be.

xWiredx, on 22 January 2015 - 11:00 AM, said:

Anybody run the numbers on an Intel box or with an Nvidia GPU? Bill, you're using an ATI card, correct? Wonder if it might have something to do with driver immaturity or something.

Nope, you can scratch off that possibility. I've been using a 7970 with TP since TP came out. All verions of Catalyst work 100% except for one of the beta builds post-14.9 that occasionally would BSOD, but that's several Windows builds and several Catalyst versions back.

I'm guessing it's just the fact that Bill's running a woefully outdated build. I think it'll clean up a lot once it gets updated.

Bill Lumbar, on 22 January 2015 - 12:39 PM, said:

Many said the same about DX10 and DX11..... yet many gamers could care less, and if I am not mistaken some MWO are still running DX9 because of issues with this game and Dx11. https://www.youtube....-yt-cl=84411374

DX10 never saw widespread implementation of what it was supposed to be. Nvidia GPUs didn't support the full featureset, so that was released essentially alongside as 10.1 while 10.0 was just a watered down version with terribad performance, presumably as a quiet Microsoft bailout of Nvidia.

You know how Nvidia is about supporting new APIs; they're always slow. This lead to several interesting situations, such as the Assassin's Creed debacle, where the game was an Nvidia "Way it's Meant to be Played" title, but because of DX10.1 actually performed better on AMD hardware, until, mysteriously, for no reason, Ubi patched out 10.1 claiming technical issues (that no one was ever able to find). The 10/10.1 debacle was just a case of technology support gone wrong, but it wasn't entirely MS's fault.

DX11, on the other hand, has delivered on what it was supposed to. MWO's implementation of it is just crappy and useless.

DX12 has something neither DX11 or 10 had: a competing API with better performance. MS has to make 12 good and actually put effort into it, because if they don't, they risk losing total dominance of DirectX in the gaming market and letting Mantle in. So 12 implements the very improvements that make Mantle good, as Kurita says.

Edited by Catamount, 22 January 2015 - 03:35 PM.

[Bill Lumbar]

I just got the time to sort it out, and I read your whole post Catamount, but really I am not gonna take the time to respond to the first two response to my replies. You can say its not 8.1 all day long, but I am sorry IMO, it is a rebranded 8.1 as 10 from what I am seeing so far. Yes the build I have is updated, however, it won't seem to let me up date the build for whatever reason at this time. It says the newer build isn't ready yet on MS website.

I have the 64 bit up and running now, it appears that I was lacking some key files to be able to run the 64 bit Client... things like DX files, amoung several other ones. I guess those didn't make it into this early version of build 9841 and for what ever reason auto updates is the only option and I have only had maybe 25 updates so far installed by the auto updater. It still hasn't updated the build, anyone have any thoughts, or how I can force it to update if there have been so many newer builds released, one would think it would find the newest and update.

I will try out my performance now that I have figured out what the install was missing here in a few. I have been trying to finishing cleaning up dry wall dust in the downstairs bedroom and getting ready to prime the walls.

Never...mind guys, I think I found access to the 9879 build, downloading now. I have 49 minutes till it gets finished and then I will have to reinstall the new build as I am pretty sure there is no upgrade or update path for this outdated 9841 build. I will get er done in a few hours and be back up and playing with it to see what it can do.

Edited by Bill Lumbar, 22 January 2015 - 05:04 PM.

[Vassago Rain]

DV McKenna, on 22 January 2015 - 01:52 AM, said:

All the unnecessary hate for windows 8, does a different UI really bug you guys that much?

At a base install level Windows 8 uses less system resources than 7, which translates into snappier performance out of the box.


As for Windows 10, people would have to be on the extreme ends of madness not to take up the free upgrade offer within the first 12 months, i can understand people wanting to wait 6-9 months to let the dust settle but to say never? really.......

I can certainly see MS game plan, offer it out for free hopefully unifying and boosting its market share onto a single OS that will also push DX12 into the mainstream as opposed to having some limited to 10 or 11 and not 12.
It would certainly be better for the gaming community for DX12 to become mainstream.
MWO works fine on the TP so the release candidate should be no different.

But given how long it took PGI to half adopt DX 11 i wouldn't expect them to code for DX 12 anytime soon.

Windows 8 was a bit like UI 2.0, except UI 2.0 is attached to a game, and so doesn't bother my daily computer usage.

Anyway, water under the bridge. Windows 8 is getting flushed, so it doesn't matter anymore. I'll 'upgrade' the windows 7 on my countless laptops to the factory windows 8, then transform that into 10.

Edited by Vassago Rain, 22 January 2015 - 05:03 PM.

[Bill Lumbar]

Vassago Rain, on 22 January 2015 - 04:59 PM, said:

Windows 8 was a bit like UI 2.0, except UI 2.0 is attached to a game, and so doesn't bother my daily computer usage.

Thank you Vass for summing up in a much shorter reply then I would of to Catamounts reply.

I am no stranger to putting my big boy pants on and figuring out how a OS works and tweak it to my liking. Linux, mac, windows, hackintosh, I am game to jump right in and figure things out. You hit it on the head Vass!

[Catamount]

Quote

You can say its not 8.1 all day long, but I am sorry IMO, it is a rebranded 8.1 as 10 from what I am seeing so far

Then either you're running it with your monitor turned off, or your standard of "rebranded 8.1" is that is shares the common features of all Windows OSes. As per usual, I find your arguments lack any actual reference to anything specific.

So far we haven't even established why you've worked so hard to hate 8.1 let alone whether 10 shares those supposed problems. If the problems were that dire and apparent I would have thought that you'd have been able to elaborate on at least one in the, like, dozen plus posts you've made expressing your hatred of Microsoft, Windows, Windows 8, Intel, kittens, ketchup... Bill, you're dragging me down here with all this negativity here, c'mon

Quote

Yes the build I have is updated, however, it won't seem to let me up date the build for whatever reason at this time. It says the newer build isn't ready yet on MS website.

Why are you looking on the MS website? The MS website isn't going to post updated builds because they just post install ISOs. Updating Windows is handled from within the OS, not on a web browser. The MS website isn't even capable of telling you if an update is available for your build because it has no idea what build you're running. I just, "website", like, I don't even



Hit the Windows key, type "windows update", hit "check for updates" when it appears, hit the magic buttons to make it go and have your OPERATING SYSTEM check for updates, not a website. First check under the Preview Builds tab, because there is an updated build for you. If it doesn't appear, then switch the toggle from slow to fast. Then when you've done that, check under the Windows Update tab for more specific files.

If you're come away from your attempt being told or thinking there's no update available, you've done something wrong.

Build 9879 is the latest build as far as I know and it's not a new build. It's been around for quite some time.


If you can't make Windows Update function (???) then here's the ISO for 9879 directly

http://go.microsoft..../?LinkId=518575

Vassago Rain, on 22 January 2015 - 04:59 PM, said:

Windows 8 was a bit like UI 2.0, except UI 2.0 is attached to a game, and so doesn't bother my daily computer usage.

Anyway, water under the bridge. Windows 8 is getting flushed, so it doesn't matter anymore. I'll 'upgrade' the windows 7 on my countless laptops to the factory windows 8, then transform that into 10.

It's funny, and yet, even if it was a valid objection (I would argue that if you can't figure out how to use a UI from 1996, the OS isn't your problem ) Windows 10 doesn't use the Metro Interface, so it's still not a valid objection.

Now, you seem to understand this, and yet Bill is claiming it's also his objection, and yet then he claims 10 is the same, when it doesn't even use this inferface.

Edited by Catamount, 22 January 2015 - 05:05 PM.