49 replies to this topic

[Cyber Carns]

I bring this up because it needs to be discussed. Now I have posted info on Zellbrigen now twice and it seems that it stalled/killed the thread, has not been any discussion after posting.

Also it seems that Total Warfare does not list Smoke Jaguar so there is not info in the books regarding their use of Zellbrigen, unless someone has a source on that.(I ask Surkai to the members of Smoke Jaguar this may have offend)

Here are the 2 threads:


http://mwomercs.com/...__fromsearch__1

http://mwomercs.com/...er/page__st__80

Now im re-posting what I posted(heh) so we can begin the discussion on how to handle the Zellbrigen situation and the 1st part is my opinion.

Not sure if anyone has brought this up in regards to Zellbringen. Clan vs Clan zellbringen will work because both use that form of ritual combat. Now Clan vs IS, Zellbringen will not work because IS does not fight that way. You can say to balance out the fights between Clan and IS is 5 vs 8 or what ever number you use, as soon as 2 IS Mechs attack one Clan Mech, Zellbringen is over and the Clan group can do team work to take out the inferior and dezgra IS mechwarriors for not following Zellbringen. Zellbringen only works if both side agree to fight that way, Mech vs Mech even numbers, other wise its a moot point.


Here is the info for how Zellbringen works from: http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Zellbrigen

Overview
Zellbrigen is ritualistic form of honor dueling practiced by the Warrior Caste of the Clans.^[1][2]
[edit]History
The practice of engaging opponents in single combat, the genesis of what would later become zellbrigen, was first started byClan Coyote during the Operation Klondike.^[3] Despite the losses incurred by this fighting method, Coyote's Khan Dana Kufahlwould continue to encourage her Clan and others to practice this "honorable" form of warfare. Eventually the practice would be taken up by all of the Clans, to a greater or lesser degree, in part as a way to minimize losses in both lives and resources.^[1][2]This is especially true when opposing commanders agreed to a duel to determine a battle's outcome.
During the Clan Invasion the rules of zellbrigen lapsed, primarily because the Inner Sphere had no concept of Clan cultural norms and, in some cases, exploited them for "underhanded" victories. By the end of the campaign zellbrigen had all but died out in several Clans, while most still reserve it for inter-Clan confrontations or against worthy Inner Sphere warriors.^[1][2]
[edit]Rules
The proscriptions of zellbrigen consist of the following rules:
§ Each warrior will issue a challenge to a different enemy. If one side outnumbers the other, then the extra warriors on that side will stand aside until one of their comrades falls in battle. A warrior can challenge more than one unit at a time.^[4]
§ A warrior has right to refuse challenges from Inner Sphere units, especially if underhanded ploys are suspected.^[4]
§ A warrior has the right to refuse a challenge from an unit of differing weight class if other unengaged units are available.^[4]
§ No artillery or other Area-Effect Weapons shall be employed by either side.^[4]
§ Intentionally moving out of the line of sight of the opponent is prohibited.^[4]
§ Systems that requires multiple units to operate, like C3 and TAG, are forbidden.^[4]
§ Moving out of weapon range is prohibited.^[4]
§ Failure to fire a weapon when possible is prohibited.^[4]
A warrior is also expected to not retreat from inferior foes, or to engage his opponent in melee combat, though these are not part of the formal rules of zellbrigen.^[4] Also, though it plays a central role in Clans' combat challenges, the ritual ofbatchallremains a separate tradition.
[edit]Interpretation
How zellbrigen is interpreted depends not only on the individual, but their parent Clan as a whole. At one end of the spectrum, the rules are strictly followed, the only exception being when fighting bandits, pirates or the most hated of enemies. At the opposite end, zellbrigen is figuratively "thrown out the airlock" and used only against other Clan warriors, and even then only when there is an advantage over them. In between are varying levels of adherence; for example, zellbrigen is followed unless circumstances dictated otherwise, such as being outnumbered or thinking one could get away with breaking it.^[4]
Prior to the Clan Invasion, Clan Blood Spirit, Clan Coyote, Clan Ghost Bear, Clan Goliath Scorpion, Clan Jade Falcon, Clan Star Adder and Clan Steel Viper adhered strictly to the tenants of zellbrigen. Meanwhile Clan Cloud Cobra, Clan Hell's Horses, Clan Ice Hellion, Clan Nova Cat and Clan Snow Raven were more opportunistic in their interpretation. Only Clan Diamond Shark andClan Wolf used a liberal interpretation of zellbrigen in their conflicts with the other Clans.^[4]
After their defeat at the Battle of Tukayyid, many of the Clans began to rethink their use of these honor rules, and a number of political, military and cultural changes took place. The Blood Spirits, Jade Falcons and Star Adders became more opportunistic, while the Ghost Bears became more liberal, in the use of zellbrigen. The schism within Clan Wolf resulted in its new Crusader-minded leadership to become slightly more conservative, while Clan Wolf-in-Exile maintain a flexible definition of zellbrigen.^[4]
Clan Fire Mandrill, by their fractious nature, defy any sort of labeling, with each Kindraa having their own individual understandings of zellbrigen.^[4]
[edit]References[color=#CCCCCC]

1. ↑ ^{1.0 1.1 1.2} Field Manual: Warden Clans, p.17[/color]

[color=#CCCCCC]

2. ↑ ^{2.0 2.1 2.2} Field Manual:Crusader Clans, p.15[/color]

[color=#CCCCCC]

3. ↑ Field Manual: Warden Clans, p. 40[/color]

[color=#CCCCCC]

4. ↑ ^{4.00 4.01 4.02 4.03 4.04 4.05 4.06 4.07 4.08 4.09 4.10 4.11 4.12} Total Warfare, p. 275[/color]

[edit]Bibliography
§ Field Manual: Crusader Clans
§ Field Manual: Warden Clans
§ Total Warfare

Edited by Cyber Carns, 09 January 2012 - 08:23 PM.

[Hairicin]

hm..

do you think about that the mass will be people wich never heard anything about battletech or not care about the story? because the only want to play a good mmo?

in my opinion zellbrigen is for fans...

in a special mod where it is regulated by the game itself, yes ofcourse why not, but regulated by players? no no no NEVER EVER!!!

there is no space for zellbrigen on the regular battlefield....

[Iron Horse]

Great post! It should be a while until they roll out any Clan content, but I hope they try to preserve some of the zellbrigen rules for Clan combat (even if just for bonuses, etc.)

[NetRDR]

while the clan content will most likly not be in the first 6 months maybe year after release maybe longer i doubt Zellbrigen will be a issue, that said the dcms did practice duels, not to mention solaris type matches so if looking for 1 on 1, shouldnt be a problem.

[Alizabeth Aijou]

I, MechWarrior Alizabeth Kotare of Clan Smoke Jaguar declare a Trial of Grievance against Cyber Carns, for not incuding a mention of my Clan, nor the mention of Clan Burrock. I pilot the sole Ebon Jaguar in my Star. I hereby invoke the ritual of Zellbrigen and challenge Cyber Carns to a dual of warriors. In this solemn matter, let no one interfere!

[Threat Doc]

Here's the problem that I have with a Clan invasion without Zellbringen in place, though it was sort of solved unofficially in the general BattleTech community back then, that the technology is so powerful that, regardless of strategy or tactics, unless Inner Sphere numbers are so superior to the Clan forces, the Clans WILL win. Are the Clans going to be introduced ONLY as AI; that would be a boon, since no AI is really as smart, or at least as reactive, as live-pilots. The system that was developed for the tabletop, before Battle Value was an issue, was that Inner Sphere players could have 50% more tonnage than the Clans were able to bring; if that would be in here, that would also be a boon, though I believe a lot of prior MechWarrior computer game folks would feel that's totally outrageous. If our hosts are going to be sticking as closely as possible to the TT rules and lore, without sacrificing fun in the game, then better equipment beyond what would actually proliferate among Inner Sphere units, which means NOTHING to mercs, and neither of these other suggestions are in play, the Inner Sphere side is likely to suffer pretty badly.

Now, Zellbringen is the Clan form of honor, but it is not true honor; I've tried to bring this subject up in a couple of places, as well as what a system COULD look like for helping regulate honor, and it was shouted down so badly by the twitch-gamers that I literally had to leave each thread to have peace. Thus, Zellbringen will not be hailed or accounted for among the community, and would not be used by Clan live-pilots, and thus is as moot a point as my own takes on honor in the other threads. Honor is defined by the community, and practiced by the individual; if there is going to be no honor in THIS community, including Zellbringen, then I will hold myself, and my unit, to a broader, and MUCH older, definition of honor, to the best of our ability. It is not only possible to have fun, it can add a dimension of good faith, good will, and good feelings for those able to uphold their honor and win. Now, admittedly, most folks won't have a problem maintaining their honor in my unit, without even thinking about it, but there are ALWAYS those few who don't understand it, won't practice it, and will take advantage of every opportunity, no matter how despicable it may be to do so.

In short, don't count on Zellbringen to be in this game, OR, if our hosts ARE able to get it in the game, somehow, don't count on live-pilots to be restricted by it, or expected to live with it.

[Stormwolf]

I created the Grand Council thread to draw all the honorable warriors together.

I'd prefer it if a number of warriors (5~15) per Clan were allowed in, they would have to pass both knowledge and skill tests to prove that they are worthy. After this initial phase the first Clan warriors would function as mods for their respective factions. These warriors would be able to allow applicants to perform a trial of position to enter the Clans.

They would also be able to kick out any dishonorable warriors who filtered through the initial trial of position.

I know that there's plenty of warriors around who will adhere to zell, we only need to install the right guys in the heart of each Clan.


Anyway, without derailing the thread, there is more to honorable combat then just Zellbrigen, for instance:

Hegira: You can give your opponent the chance to withdraw honorably. It would not make a lot of sense to the IS, but give them this opportunity when they prove themselves in battle (this will also make us a bit more noble in the eyes of the IS players).

Bidding: This should really be in MWO, it would allow Star Commanders/Captains/Colonels to easily underbid any munchkins who will only run around in "Daishi's". Some people would not even conceive the possibility to enter the battlefield a in Ice Ferret or Kit Fox, they are unfit for bidding and by extension unfit to function in a Clan.


Now to Zellbrigen, I would personally opt for Clan players to check their peers for dishonorable behaviour. A point system of sorts would also help, but there are some wide disagreements here on how to implement it.

[Threat Doc]

Stormwolf, on 25 November 2011 - 03:49 PM, said:

I created the Grand Council thread to draw all the honorable warriors together.

I'd prefer it if a number of warriors (5~15) per Clan were allowed in, they would have to pass both knowledge and skill tests to prove that they are worthy. After this initial phase the first Clan warriors would function as mods for their respective factions. These warriors would be able to allow applicants to perform a trial of position to enter the Clans.

So, the Clans are the only ones with honor? Clan honor, pffft. hehe

Quote

Hegira: You can give your opponent the chance to withdraw honorably. It would not make a lot of sense to the IS, but give them this opportunity when they prove themselves in battle (this will also make us a bit more noble in the eyes of the IS players).

Neither of those statements are true, entirely. Part of the fluff in the very first box set had to do with warriors allowing one another to withdraw for the sake of repairs, and then they would meet again. Just because the summit guys decided to give it a name doesn't make it any more important than the original verbiage. As for Clan warriors looking more noble in the eyes of many IS soldiers, not bloody likely. What will make ME see the Clans as more honorable, is if live-pilot MechWarriors will actually fight honorably: bow by twisting your torso prior to engaging in battle, if pinpoint accuracy is allowed for all weapons, don't maliciously and continually shoot me in the head, legs, or back, and when I am knocked down, or fall down, cease firing on me until I get back up and twist my torso back to you before you engage again. Oh, and if you're really going to work with Zellbringen, if one of your own people fire on me when you and I are engaged in single combat -which, if our hosts do it right, won't be possible because you'll be facing multiple IS 'Mechs at a time-, you warn your guy off and, if they don't disengage, you blow them off the battlefield first, and then finish with me. I'll let you finish.

Quote

Bidding: This should really be in MWO, it would allow Star Commanders/Captains/Colonels to easily underbid any munchkins who will only run around in "Daishi's". Some people would not even conceive the possibility to enter the battlefield a in Ice Ferret or Kit Fox, they are unfit for bidding and by extension unfit to function in a Clan.

I like this, but I still see it being readily abused, especially if our hosts are loathe to keep those who are not working by fluff/lore to return to IS ranks. If we absolutely have to be inclusive to everyone, and they get to play where they want to play -and no one's said either way, to my knowledge-, then the Clans will not be honorable, or few will be.

Quote

Now to Zellbrigen, I would personally opt for Clan players to check their peers for dishonorable behaviour. A point system of sorts would also help, but there are some wide disagreements here on how to implement it.

Despite being a mercenary, I intend to do this, and have my Command & Staff do this as well. The word mercenary is seriously mislabeled and ill-defined by those who don't understand the real history of mercenaries; just because mercs have to feed, clothe, and arm their people doesn't mean they HAVE to work for the highest bidder, except perhaps in the beginning. Being a mercenary and honorable is not an oxymoron, it simply means that there are those who will not give on some principles just to feed, clothe, and arm their people. There are also those who can take, and have taken, jobs from the highest bidder which are, typically, despicable, and make lemons into lemonade, turning a dishonorable turn into a wonderful opportunity, which is how I will act.

I honestly do wish you the best of luck, and I would love to see honorable combat encouraged heavily in this game, even before it goes live.

Edited by Kay Wolf, 25 November 2011 - 04:29 PM.

[DocBach]

Stormwolf, you brought up an awesome aspect that I don't think I've seen addressed in any other threads - BIDDING.

Would love to see Clanners have to bid away their buddies to drop into a game.

[Stormwolf]

Kay Wolf, on 25 November 2011 - 04:28 PM, said:

So, the Clans are the only ones with honor? Clan honor, pffft. hehe

Yes, the DC only have a few warriors who will use it.

Kay Wolf, on 25 November 2011 - 04:28 PM, said:

Neither of those statements are true, entirely. Part of the fluff in the very first box set had to do with warriors allowing one another to withdraw for the sake of repairs, and then they would meet again. Just because the summit guys decided to give it a name doesn't make it any more important than the original verbiage. As for Clan warriors looking more noble in the eyes of many IS soldiers, not bloody likely. What will make ME see the Clans as more honorable, is if live-pilot MechWarriors will actually fight honorably: bow by twisting your torso prior to engaging in battle, if pinpoint accuracy is allowed for all weapons, don't maliciously and continually shoot me in the head, legs, or back, and when I am knocked down, or fall down, cease firing on me until I get back up and twist my torso back to you before you engage again. Oh, and if you're really going to work with Zellbringen, if one of your own people fire on me when you and I are engaged in single combat -which, if our hosts do it right, won't be possible because you'll be facing multiple IS 'Mechs at a time-, you warn your guy off and, if they don't disengage, you blow them off the battlefield first, and then finish with me. I'll let you finish.

This is where we differ, we don't know how the game is going to handle lost/destroyed mechs. Hegira would allow you to keep your mech instead of needing to get a new (assuming that it is possible that you can lose your mech).

There is a list floating around that Clanners shouldn't shoot at shutdown mechs or leg them, but this is not mentioned in any of the sourcebooks. It is allowed to shoot any and all parts on a enemy mech.

It is nice of you to let me weed out the surats, thank you.

Kay Wolf, on 25 November 2011 - 04:28 PM, said:

I like this, but I still see it being readily abused, especially if our hosts are loathe to keep those who are not working by fluff/lore to return to IS ranks. If we absolutely have to be inclusive to everyone, and they get to play where they want to play -and no one's said either way, to my knowledge-, then the Clans will not be honorable, or few will be.

Thanks.

Kay Wolf, on 25 November 2011 - 04:28 PM, said:

Despite being a mercenary, I intend to do this, and have my Command & Staff do this as well. The word mercenary is seriously mislabeled and ill-defined by those who don't understand the real history of mercenaries; just because mercs have to feed, clothe, and arm their people doesn't mean they HAVE to work for the highest bidder, except perhaps in the beginning. Being a mercenary and honorable is not an oxymoron, it simply means that there are those who will not give on some principles just to feed, clothe, and arm their people. There are also those who can take, and have taken, jobs from the highest bidder which are, typically, despicable, and make lemons into lemonade, turning a dishonorable turn into a wonderful opportunity, which is how I will act.

I know, just remember to stay away from the Ghost Bears, those guys will not show you any mercy.

Kay Wolf, on 25 November 2011 - 04:28 PM, said:

I honestly do wish you the best of luck, and I would love to see honorable combat encouraged heavily in this game, even before it goes live.

Thanks, I'm busy gathering as much support from Clan players as possible. Please send any and all honorable players here if you know any.

[CoffiNail]

The part where you mention shut down mechs/legging mechs. The only time they would not shhot at a shut down mech is if for some reason they came across the mech before it started up. I would see them letting it power up and be ready to fight a honorable battle instead of just downing the shut down mech. If a mech shuts down during the middle of the fight it is on the lack of heat management of the opponent and there for his mistake. It is like shooting in the back. My interpretation is that the would not sneak up on a enemy and pop him in the back for the initial start of the duel, but if one can maneuver your light mech behind that medium it is proving you are the better pilot.

[Threat Doc]

Okay, you guys are NOT reading me, ignoring words, not giving a full read, full weight, or full understanding to what I wrote... so, I'm not going to explain it again. I have crap to do.

[Hartsblade]

Zellbrigen is for the Clans, as a Spheriod I prefer Rumschpringe

...carry on.

[The Basilisk]

@Cybercarns

--MWO IS NOT BATTLETECH
...
...
...
-- It may be based on Battletech but its not the simulation of the bordgame we all love and adore.
-- As all Mechwarrior parts it will be an interpretation of Battletech, in this case done by the great artists of Piranha Games. I think this is by far the most importend thing to remember when trying to implement Battletech sources, rules and lore.
-- You can't force people to roleplay. (Yeah, sometimes its somewhat sad)

Considering the points above you get every answer you need. Discussion about the Implementation of the clan rules of honorable combat and warfare are virtualy pointles because you simply don't know exactly whitch role your *character* will be in and how the progression of the Timeline will be handled. We don't even know how the combat system will work.

What is save to say (it was already answered in the 1st interview) there will be no singleplayer.

[HARDKOR]

I think this entire topic is a moot point and none of what you are talking about will be implemented. I'll be happy if we get a mech lab.

[GreyGriffin]

Brief reality check.

The majority of clan players will not play with Zellbrigen. A free-to-play game thrives on the casual market, and the casual market likes to play how they like, *****-nilly. Zellbrigen is actually counterproductive - as the history of the clans clearly demonstrates, in open battle not governed by Trial, clans who stick closely to Zellbrigen lose. This means that players who play to win, which is a huge majority of all players, including Battletech players, will focus fire, fight outside their weight range, and kick other 'Mechs while they are down, assuming kicking gets implemented pre-clans.

Furthermore, Zellbrigen is a two-way street. Except in the strictest of honor duels, a breach of Zellbrigen will rapidly cause the fight to degenerate into a free-for-all. Practicing Zellbrigen would require both sides to know, understand, and play by the rules in a real battlefield scenario, which would be an exercise in discipline in an information-perfect environment, which MWO is apparently not.

A third thing to consider is that Zellbrigen is a courtesy. It is a system of honorable combat extended to other honorable combatants. Breaches of Zellbrigen happen all the time in Clan warfare, even in canon. Breaching Zellbrigen may cost you honor, but winning a battle will get you that back, and more. Degenerating a battle into a free-for-all can be a valuable tactical move, especially in asymmetric stars.

So, yes, Zellbrigen is a fun and interesting part of the fiction. Would I appreciate a system in place to reward players who conduct themselves with honor? Absolutely? Would I punish those who breach Zellbrigen? No, not at all. Those players aren't in it for that.

[Thoman Coston2]

For Mechwarrior online gaming where teams are involved, I don't think Zell is fun as it makes team play irrelevant. Team play is the core that what makes Mechwarrior online gaming fun in all its previous incarnations from MW2-MW4.

Role playing clan is fun enough with performing the bidding ritual aka batchall, i recall ladder league Grand Council in old MW2 kali used a batchall system with the battle fought in mostly 2v2 or 3v3, no zell. Later in MW4 NBT, we had bidding (batchall) among clans. Zell is optional thus almost never used in actual league drops. I think it should be left to be optional, but not mandatory, so that it does not ruin team play.

For Roleplay Hardcore, don't forget, the clans actually ditched the mandatory use of Zell in later years of the invasion as it is proven to be inefficient and flawed against IS.

[CoffiNail]

Thoman Coston, on 29 November 2011 - 04:43 AM, said:

For Roleplay Hardcore, don't forget, the clans actually ditched the mandatory use of Zell in later years of the invasion as it is proven to be inefficient and flawed against IS.

Bolded the important part. With 1 of our 24 hours, 24 hours passes in the MWO universe... I think that if as i have said in another thread, if they program in a honor system for how the clans get their xp, as you do not lose honor if someone fires on your target mech, they do. So if as I sugested in the previously said thread a 'claim' button for you to claim a target, possibly two, where I would end it so some ***** cannot claim all the mechs and ***** the system. It would allow a player to claim said mech and focus on that mech. With luck it will have a command for open channels and people can issue actual batchalls in game.. lol. IT can be done, it just needs a system that has more pros to using 1 vs 1 dueling then when it is not being used.

[Stormwolf]

I support the "claim button", it is one of the better ideas around here.

[CoffiNail]

Yeah it is the only way I can think of, and it is what I always sort of thought the Clans would do as well, select their target and issue the batchall radar highlights to indicate that target has been claimed by another warrior, I mean middle of battle with a few 15-30+ batchalls being made the warriors cannot easily know who is currently engaged with who and no one is going to sit on the field waiting 10 -20 seconds to see if that target is engaged.

Sure it is one more command, but what if it was made like shift + T or Shift + C, mauybe even C itself