40 replies to this topic

[Dymlos2003]

Everyone is expecting to be able to switch to the clans when they finally invade. I highly doubt that you'll be able to do this when the time comes.

What I do think should happen is that when the invasion happens, you and your Merc Corps can accept missions to fight these "unknown" invaders. Sort of a Co-op Mission if think about it. Computer controlled Clans would be best since they can simulate their attitude and honor. During the missions you can get salvage and that's how you get your clan tech and maybe you can do a few missions every week to balance farmers. (Maybe?)

This is how they can implement Co-op and I thought it would be the best way for the clans to be in the game.

[Hunter McGee]

I sort of agree with all of this. I know that it is going to make a lot of people upset of even dismayed since I am currently the Loremaster for Clan Wolf. But I too feel that the Clans should be the adversary. We should have to fight against them. And on top of all that, to be perfectly honest, VERY few people know how to play a Clansman. The rules of Zellbrigen are very detailed and intense. I don't see a lot of people wanting to stick to that. They want the power of the Clans, but not the restrictions. It pains me to see people just out for the "Power Gaming" logic of today. If the Clans would have hit all together, and no rules of engagement, they would have annihilated the Inner sphere within 3 to 4 years. Nobody can argue that fact. Most of the gamers online want that power, but they refuse to live by that "Code", Please, understand that as a role playing aspect, I dearly love the Clansmen, but I also stick to that code. I do not mind getting my backside waxed regularly. Most of the gaming crowd today wants the win, at any cost, even their honor. Let the environment play the Clanners. Let them be the ultimate adversary. MAKE US HAVE TO WORK TOGETHER!!! Like the great houses did to survive. Exodus Road! Enemy of my enemy is my friend, at least for now....

[Nill Zenath]

I don't see it happening that way.

Clans I tend to believe will be implemented in one of two ways... first where it isn't as significant an advantage, if at all to be clan; where by innersphere and clan are just asymetrically balanced with different playstyles and different abilities but both roughly even (ie clan have better range on weapons, but innersphere has a longer range for its commander to call airstrikes thus mitigating some degree of the range advantage). Second possibility is where there is a general advantage to the individual player to playing Clan which is balanced by a faction handicap such as a Star versus 2 lances (ie 5 clanners vs 8 innersphere). It could also be some combination of the two.

That's how I think it will happen, but this is how I'd like to see it happen: I think being "clan" should partially be a matter of ranking. Where only the top 50% of player based on ranking are able to vie for ability to play as "clan" which would be further limited to a number of "positions" relative to the entire online player base. You then make being "Clan" something you can hold on to if you're good, or lose is you lose too many battles. Clan players would have a number of flavorful handicaps to balance things with the innersphere and to challenge what would tend to be the better players. Amongst the clan players there should further be ranking with only the top so many players having access to the best mechs. This helps represent the trials of position and the relatively smaller but more highly skilled clan population, while making it something prestigious and attainable, thus avoiding turning the clans into a waylay for players simply looking for an advantage in immediately supperior gear.

It takes "Clans" and turns it into a campaign scale "king of the hill".

[Eckerson]

Hunter McGee, on 23 November 2011 - 07:27 AM, said:

The rules of Zellbrigen are very detailed and intense. I don't see a lot of people wanting to stick to that. They want the power of the Clans, but not the restrictions.

The rules of Zellbrigen were usually not followed by the Clans against the Inner Sphere shortly after the invasion began. It was still used in vs Clan matches or against opponents in the IS who were considered worthy of honorable combat.

That being said, I agree. Zellbrigen is way too restrictive to force on a player. You could make it an optional minor bonus to advancement though if you still wanted to include it. For example (just using the two common rules with arbitrary points, where EXP is the number of points you would normally receive for defeating another opponent, assuming progression even works that way):

• Defeating an opponent by fighting exclusively with that opponent (the opponent does not need to have also fought exclusively with you) = EXP+50.
  
• Defeating an opponent that was not otherwise considered engaged = EXP+20.

You could also have progression in the clans be slightly slower, so that use of Zellbrigen bonuses would bring you back up to speed compared to the IS. That would probably dissuade some people from becoming Clan (so it's only useful if that was the goal).

That being said, I would love it if there was some kind of Honor/Fame system implemented into the game (honor for Clan, fame for IS). It doesn't need to have any bearing on your advancement or what equipment you have, but made you more visible to other players in the metagame (outside of matches). This would be a way to highlight the top players of each side in a way that makes sense with the lore, and would be another incentive for some players to stay IS. If you want to just blow stuff up and be a top-player based on your ability to defeat enemy mechs and achieve objectives, the Inner Sphere's fame system would be better suited for your play style.

[Hunter McGee]

The Clans, in there ignorance did attempt to use Zel for the first portion of the invasion. But slowly stepped away from it based off of the units they were fighting. They never abandoned it completely hence the persistent use of the Batchall, and the announcement of their intended force of combat personnel. Even the Smoke Jaguars continued with that tradition till the very last. Yes, the Batchall is a vital part of Zel. So they never actually threw it out completely, not even against the Merc units they faced. Now against Dezgra, (Disgraced Bandits etc.) Zel was never offered.

Edited by Hunter McGee, 23 November 2011 - 01:22 PM.

[Stiffish Asp]

correction of sorts, the clans even after tukkayid abided by zelbriggen until it was broken by the enemy, case in point, in the twilight of the clans series, the smoke jags were still abiding by zel until it was broken, even on huntress. only against mercs and bandits did they not really give a rusty frak because they were considered of no honor worth, what fighting for money and whatnot.

[Gorthaur]

i wouldn't mind if clans were PvE. it makes a lot of sense for PGI to do it that way imho.

i had a weird thought thought that i know wouldn't work but sounded interesting. i was thinking that maybe when the clans invade the clan NPCs can start taking bondsmen from us in small amounts and that is how people can become clanners at first.

for example: have some special event mission that is only around the time and the mission is designed to have one of its endings as you becoming a bondsmen. then you could go through some missions to become part of some freebirth unit (become the next Horse!) or something like that, idk. a bunch of freebirths becoming bloodnamed warriors couldn't happen this way though, itd be a little to micheal stackpole for my taste.

Edited by Gorthaur, 24 November 2011 - 02:39 AM.

[godmonkey]

i think that this is a rather difficult topic to solve in a satisfactory manner. But there indeed are a few options to make it workable.



The first problem is that there is a large fanbase of hardcore clanners that will feel neglected if they do not get to play what they want. This is completely understandable. I myself am a hardcore clanner abiding to the "limit factors of social conduct" that they live by. without the drawbacks the clans are nothing but a powergamers wet dream.

The first option is to limit the clans as a PvE faction at the start. So that everyone gets to witness the awesome power of the clans. From the receiving end. I will play the FRR and i'm very much aware of exactly how much receiving that faction will get. In this model the Devs can get enough time to make the clans "feel" right.

Then there is a second thing that could be implemented. Want to play a clanner? fine. Get ready for your Trial of Position if you want to join up. Not only that you would regularly have to retake the Trial of Position to maintain your place in the clans. This would mean that only the very best players are playing them (as should be according to canon). This would also make the players of the clans more willing to go along with batchalls and bid down since they are confident in their skills for a reason.

This makes the matches interesting for all involved and is a nice mix of canon too

Edited by godmonkey, 24 November 2011 - 02:58 AM.

[Brakkyn]

In my opinion, since the invading Clans never declared a batchall against the Inner Sphere before launching their invasion, it should be rendered invalid. They should go back home and give the Spheroids a do-over.

I also believe they should, before they invade again, HPG the Inner Sphere a dossier of Clan rules of warfare and the proper designations for Clan 'Mechs. Heck, that last part ALONE would save countless lives.

Spheroid: "Hey, bro, nice Mad Cat!"
Clanner: "IT IS A TIMBER WOLF, SURAT!" /ER Large Laser to the face

Edited by Brakkyn, 24 November 2011 - 03:04 AM.

[Stormwolf]

Hunter McGee, on 23 November 2011 - 07:27 AM, said:

I sort of agree with all of this. I know that it is going to make a lot of people upset of even dismayed since I am currently the Loremaster for Clan Wolf. But I too feel that the Clans should be the adversary. We should have to fight against them. And on top of all that, to be perfectly honest, VERY few people know how to play a Clansman. The rules of Zellbrigen are very detailed and intense. I don't see a lot of people wanting to stick to that. They want the power of the Clans, but not the restrictions. It pains me to see people just out for the "Power Gaming" logic of today. If the Clans would have hit all together, and no rules of engagement, they would have annihilated the Inner sphere within 3 to 4 years. Nobody can argue that fact. Most of the gamers online want that power, but they refuse to live by that "Code", Please, understand that as a role playing aspect, I dearly love the Clansmen, but I also stick to that code. I do not mind getting my backside waxed regularly. Most of the gaming crowd today wants the win, at any cost, even their honor. Let the environment play the Clanners. Let them be the ultimate adversary. MAKE US HAVE TO WORK TOGETHER!!! Like the great houses did to survive. Exodus Road! Enemy of my enemy is my friend, at least for now....

I'm a Wolf like you, I would follow Zell myself, like you I'm afraid that too many people would ruin the Clans by abusing the power of Clan tech.

I wish that the devs would filter out the die-hard Clan players since the AI will eventually get outmatched by real players since it can't think outside of the box.

[Cyber Carns]

Not sure if anyone has brought this up in regards to Zellbringen. Clan vs Clan zellbringen will work because both use that form of ritual combat. Now Clan vs IS, Zellbringen will not work because IS does not fight that way. You can say to balance out the fights between Clan and IS is 5 vs 8 or what ever number you use, as soon as 2 IS Mechs attack one Clan Mech, Zellbringen is over and the Clan group can do team work to take out the inferior and dezgra IS mechwarriors for not following Zellbringen. Zellbringen only works if both side agree to fight that way, Mech vs Mech even numbers, other wise its a moot point.


Here is the info for how Zellbringen works from: http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Zellbrigen


Overview
Zellbrigen is ritualistic form of honor dueling practiced by the Warrior Caste of the Clans.^[1][2]
[edit]History
The practice of engaging opponents in single combat, the genesis of what would later become zellbrigen, was first started by Clan Coyote during the Operation Klondike.^[3] Despite the losses incurred by this fighting method, Coyote's Khan Dana Kufahlwould continue to encourage her Clan and others to practice this "honorable" form of warfare. Eventually the practice would be taken up by all of the Clans, to a greater or lesser degree, in part as a way to minimize losses in both lives and resources.^[1][2]This is especially true when opposing commanders agreed to a duel to determine a battle's outcome.
During the Clan Invasion the rules of zellbrigen lapsed, primarily because the Inner Sphere had no concept of Clan cultural norms and, in some cases, exploited them for "underhanded" victories. By the end of the campaign zellbrigen had all but died out in several Clans, while most still reserve it for inter-Clan confrontations or against worthy Inner Sphere warriors.^[1][2]
[edit]Rules
The proscriptions of zellbrigen consist of the following rules:
§ Each warrior will issue a challenge to a different enemy. If one side outnumbers the other, then the extra warriors on that side will stand aside until one of their comrades falls in battle. A warrior can challenge more than one unit at a time.^[4]
§ A warrior has right to refuse challenges from Inner Sphere units, especially if underhanded ploys are suspected.^[4]
§ A warrior has the right to refuse a challenge from an unit of differing weight class if other unengaged units are available.^[4]
§ No artillery or other Area-Effect Weapons shall be employed by either side.^[4]
§ Intentionally moving out of the line of sight of the opponent is prohibited.^[4]
§ Systems that requires multiple units to operate, like C3 and TAG, are forbidden.^[4]
§ Moving out of weapon range is prohibited.^[4]
§ Failure to fire a weapon when possible is prohibited.^[4]
A warrior is also expected to not retreat from inferior foes, or to engage his opponent in melee combat, though these are not part of the formal rules of zellbrigen.^[4] Also, though it plays a central role in Clans' combat challenges, the ritual of batchallremains a separate tradition.
[edit]Interpretation
How zellbrigen is interpreted depends not only on the individual, but their parent Clan as a whole. At one end of the spectrum, the rules are strictly followed, the only exception being when fighting bandits, pirates or the most hated of enemies. At the opposite end, zellbrigen is figuratively "thrown out the airlock" and used only against other Clan warriors, and even then only when there is an advantage over them. In between are varying levels of adherence; for example, zellbrigen is followed unless circumstances dictated otherwise, such as being outnumbered or thinking one could get away with breaking it.^[4]
Prior to the Clan Invasion, Clan Blood Spirit, Clan Coyote, Clan Ghost Bear, Clan Goliath Scorpion, Clan Jade Falcon, Clan Star Adder and Clan Steel Viper adhered strictly to the tenants of zellbrigen. Meanwhile Clan Cloud Cobra, Clan Hell's Horses, Clan Ice Hellion, Clan Nova Cat and Clan Snow Raven were more opportunistic in their interpretation. Only Clan Diamond Shark and Clan Wolf used a liberal interpretation of zellbrigen in their conflicts with the other Clans.^[4]
After their defeat at the Battle of Tukayyid, many of the Clans began to rethink their use of these honor rules, and a number of political, military and cultural changes took place. The Blood Spirits, Jade Falcons and Star Adders became more opportunistic, while the Ghost Bears became more liberal, in the use of zellbrigen. The schism within Clan Wolf resulted in its new Crusader-minded leadership to become slightly more conservative, while Clan Wolf-in-Exile maintain a flexible definition of zellbrigen.^[4]
Clan Fire Mandrill, by their fractious nature, defy any sort of labeling, with each Kindraa having their own individual understandings of zellbrigen.^[4]
[edit]References

1. ↑ ^{1.0 1.1 1.2} Field Manual: Warden Clans, p.17

2. ↑ ^{2.0 2.1 2.2} Field Manual:Crusader Clans, p.15

3. ↑ Field Manual: Warden Clans, p. 40

4. ↑ ^{4.00 4.01 4.02 4.03 4.04 4.05 4.06 4.07 4.08 4.09 4.10 4.11 4.12} Total Warfare, p. 275

[edit]Bibliography
§ Field Manual: Crusader Clans
§ Field Manual: Warden Clans
§ Total Warfare

[Frost Lord]

they should make it so you need to buy a blueprint of a clan mech rather then the actual chasy and you need to get each part of the mech threw salvage in clan battles, an option like assault and conquest and when you go that game mode one side has there mechs changed to a random clan mechs of the same weight or weight class with any of the pilot tree upgrades they had with there original mech,then anyone on the winning side gets a random piece of equipment these would be things like timber wolf L arm L leg R arm cockpit chest and so on (could be variant specific) then there's clan weapons as well as ammo heat sinks and anything else they have that's better, you could even go as far as needing activators. once you have everything for the basic frame you can use the blueprint to build it and use it on clan or non clan sides you could make it. you might not need all the weapons or equipment just the components that are locked in.
this would mean anyone can play clan strait off the bat but it takes time and effort to get a permanent clan mech in yore mech bay wile still having a fair MC option for the blue print it also means over time other mechs will become more competitive with clan mechs.

I would put a mech upgrade in to allow the mech to use clan teck perhaps one for each weapon or just weapons and heat sinks then one for other stuff.

the clan side in the clan game mode might be a lance less then the other side to even the teams a bit but as time gos on the gap would close, or they could try to integrate the clan rules it might be hard tho and from what I understood they didn't lasts long because the IS broke them as soon as combat started.

The clan rules could be used for clan V clan games or in an arena game mode

Edited by Frost Lord, 15 March 2013 - 09:43 PM.

[Novakaine]

There are no Clans.
The Clans are a myth.
The Clans do not exist.
You have been warned.
FedCom MilSec

[M4rtyr]

Honestly I don't care at all about how they are populated.

I'm concerned about the balance of the game...

[Odins Fist]

dymlos2003, on 22 November 2011 - 08:11 PM, said:

Everyone is expecting to be able to switch to the clans when they finally invade.

.
No kidding...
I see a lot of people getting kinda bored with no CW or Clan Goodies...
.
Call it a deal breaker if it doesn't get implemented where people can use Clan Tech/Mechs.
In other words, "Game Over", literally.

[Frost Lord]

M4rtyr, on 15 March 2013 - 09:17 PM, said:

Honestly I don't care at all about how they are populated.

I'm concerned about the balance of the game...

well the way they are populated will effect the balance of the game. if they just put them in the same way they are now everyone will have them day one and you will rarely see anything else. so it needs to be done right.

[Naja]

I see a lot of different Ideas about how clans should be implemented, and though I'm not sure about how it should be done, from my personal perspective I have a good idea about how it shouldn't/ won't be done.

First off is the fighting for the 'right' to be a clanner. I just don't see it happening, nor do I think it should. The fan base for the clans is huge, and forcing them to compete over the ability to actually play the faction they wish is a bad idea for business and just bad for the community in general. Bad for business because if the ability to play the game the game the way you want it taken from you, people will lose interest. Also, forcing this style of competition into MWO will see the number of minmax players increase drastically, as people will feel they now HAVE to minmax, so they can play the game as they want to. It would also be detrimental to community, as it would cause segregation based on 'perceived skill', and I stress perceived, as there is no real way to determine a players skill based on currently available statistics alone.

The second Idea that I'm not too fussed on is the PvE approach. For that to be implemented PGI would have to get someone to write the AI for the mechs (no small task in itself), then constantly monitor the system to ensure that people aren't able to exploit it to their advantage. Also, AI scripting in FPS games is inherently boring, the AI isn't that creative, just follows a set of rules that ultimately result in very boring gameplay.

This isn't to say that either of these implementation strategies won't be adopted, but I just don't see it happening.
One way I personally think is an effective idea is everyone picks both a clan and IS mech pre-drop. The player can have a preference as to which faction they fight for, then the game fills up both sides with people who prefer to be on the corresponding factions. If one faction has too many 'preferred players', you're just unlucky and get stuck on the other one for the game. If you don't own a mech of each faction, then you get given a random stock variant to pilot (thus insentivising the purchase of both kinds). That way should hopefully see you most often getting to play as your faction, but every now and then you play as the other for the sake of keeping matchmaking running smoothly.

Wow, this post turned out to be longer than anticipated =/

[Abrahms]

Want to know how it will REALLY be added?

You can only buy their stuff with MC, and it will be clearly overpowered but they will lie to your face and try to convince you that it isnt.

They will then anticipate a lot of $, but will probably instead lose more players.

also, there will be no pve, stop dreaming

[Frost Lord]

Naja, on 15 March 2013 - 09:41 PM, said:

I see a lot of different Ideas about how clans should be implemented, and though I'm not sure about how it should be done, from my personal perspective I have a good idea about how it shouldn't/ won't be done.

First off is the fighting for the 'right' to be a clanner. I just don't see it happening, nor do I think it should. The fan base for the clans is huge, and forcing them to compete over the ability to actually play the faction they wish is a bad idea for business and just bad for the community in general. Bad for business because if the ability to play the game the game the way you want it taken from you, people will lose interest. Also, forcing this style of competition into MWO will see the number of minmax players increase drastically, as people will feel they now HAVE to minmax, so they can play the game as they want to. It would also be detrimental to community, as it would cause segregation based on 'perceived skill', and I stress perceived, as there is no real way to determine a players skill based on currently available statistics alone.

The second Idea that I'm not too fussed on is the PvE approach. For that to be implemented PGI would have to get someone to write the AI for the mechs (no small task in itself), then constantly monitor the system to ensure that people aren't able to exploit it to their advantage. Also, AI scripting in FPS games is inherently boring, the AI isn't that creative, just follows a set of rules that ultimately result in very boring gameplay.

This isn't to say that either of these implementation strategies won't be adopted, but I just don't see it happening.
One way I personally think is an effective idea is everyone picks both a clan and IS mech pre-drop. The player can have a preference as to which faction they fight for, then the game fills up both sides with people who prefer to be on the corresponding factions. If one faction has too many 'preferred players', you're just unlucky and get stuck on the other one for the game. If you don't own a mech of each faction, then you get given a random stock variant to pilot (thus insentivising the purchase of both kinds). That way should hopefully see you most often getting to play as your faction, but every now and then you play as the other for the sake of keeping matchmaking running smoothly.

Wow, this post turned out to be longer than anticipated =/

I mostly agree but I think this game is full of Min/maxers just like any game with customization.
they could also have non clan /clan only options.

Edited by Frost Lord, 15 March 2013 - 09:50 PM.

[M4rtyr]

Frost Lord, on 15 March 2013 - 09:39 PM, said:

well the way they are populated will effect the balance of the game. if they just put them in the same way they are now everyone will have them day one and you will rarely see anything else. so it needs to be done right.

I mean IS vs Clan tech... I'd rather they be some sort of PvE but don't see how that would work. But bottom line is fighting as IS against Clanners doesn't work without serious limitations.