Posted 09 March 2015 - 12:09 PM
This is just a bad idea... and although I thought not doing 10v12 was "lazy man's out" for PGI, it's actually a problem in the grander scheme of things.
If we were to balance Clan vs IS in just REGULAR PUG matches... there will be more complaints about Clan tech being literally OP. In that sense, the PUGs would be right.
What you have to aim for is ACTUALLY balancing Clan tech vs IS tech (not necessarily the mechs, although quirks help) ON AN UNQUIRKED LEVEL. Otherwise, you will poorly balance everything else in the process.
Let me break this argument into 3 sections... as the logic behind this disastrous idea needs more actual effort to be put into (I don't want to deal with it, but I would honestly attempt to balance this).
1) Starcraft - Still the best example to explain proper balance...
If you haven't played it, I suggest you actually look into the game. It's freaking old, it's still a classic, and it's more or less properly balanced.
The best way of "comparisons" (and it will be faulty to a degree) is like saying IS is the Zerg and the Clans are the Protoss. One has weaker tech, but have ways to compensate with that through speed or numbers. The other has stronger tech, but pays for it for taking longer and requires more time/cost/effort to make them very efficient.
Mind you, these are relative to an RTS game, not an FPS game... but the concepts overall are applied for balance.
So, when a Clan mech should be facing an IS mech, they "should" be relatively "equal but different". One should require more skill to perform damage in a small window while the other is able to produce more damage over time (DPS). This doesn't LITERALLY mean that the damage of all weapons should be the same (range, damage, heat, etc.) It means that things have to be applied differently.
When players/teams in Starcraft play, they tend to play on even teams... 2v2 literally means 2players on each side facing off. It doesn't matter what combination they may be (although, some team synergy is better than others - being both Zerg or both Protoss should be good, but half one Zerg and one Protoss shouldn't be a detrimental either).
Asking for 12v10 amounts to saying here... let's do "5v4" (Clan Star vs IS Lance). Let's just switch the Star with all IS mechs and Clan mechs are in the Lance. That is what you are asking for.
If players are of equal skill, often times the # of players tend to have a greater impact. You don't have FPS games wanting "imbalanced team numbers" (as much as possible) even if you set restrictions (like tonnage or weight classes). It doesn't really work well.
This was NEVER AN ISSUE in MW4 where everyone in leagues agreed to tonnage limits. A Madcat (Timberwolf) was not outright "better" than Thanatos (75-ton IS mech) depending on the situation. They had different qualities and excelled at one thing over another (Thanatos was better for poptarting and brawling, whereas the Madcat was better at range with LRMs). In this sense, balance is imperfect, but completely achievable. That isn't ever going to honestly happen in MWO if balance were good enough to allow this to happen.
So, we need to dig into deeper issues...
2) Balance - IS Med Lasers vs Clan ER Med Lasers
One thing that has to be balanced since the start is the IS Medium Laser compared to the Clan ER Medium Laser. It's really that important.
The problem is, I don't quite feel it is.
Adding 2 pts more damage to a 1 ton weapon is really significant. Yes, heat buildup increases, but I think there's a lost message to that issue.
The beam duration determines how much damage a beam tic (.1 second) is dealt over time.
So, let's look over the stats..
IS Medium Laser
5 damage
.9 second duration
5 damage / (.9 second * 10 ticks per second) = ~.56 damage per tic
Clan ER Medium Laser
7 damage
1.15 second duration
7 damage / (1.15 second * 10 ticks per second) = ~.61 damage per tic
So, assuming an IS mech is trading vs a Clan mech at the IS laser's optimal range, the Clan Mech deals .05 damage more per tic... or .45 more damage over that .9 seconds.
How is that actually skill?
While heat is a factor (it is always a factor), the Clan mech is trading more effectively AND has .25 more seconds of beam duration to go to add additional damage. When heat is a non-factor, the IS mech loses out on this trade regardless.
If let's say we nerf the Clan Med Laser damage by even .5 damage...
6.5 damage / (1.15 second * 10 tics per second) = ~.56 damage per tic
Suddenly, you can actually argue "skill" because the damage per tic is THE SAME while you need to spend an extra quarter second to get the rest of the damage dealt to the target. I would not argue against a small heat reduction as a result.
Remember that the IS has yet to be introduced to the IS ER Medium... which DOES NOT gain the damage benefits of Clan Tech. I'm not saying this is perfectly balanced nor should be the ideal value... but contextually how do you argue "skill" when the base reasoning for skill does not exist?
Of course, the argument could be extended to IS Large Lasers vs Clan ER Mediums... but that's not even the point...
It brings me to a more difficult discussion that has to be made...
3) Mixtech - What is the point of the IS DHS when Clan DHS is better?
This is a more complicated argument.... as this may never be added to the game. HOWEVER, MW4 did not have such a problem (well, it kinda did, but Mektek helped out in addressing some of the issues). The idea is that the value of IS tech should not be totally inferior to the equivalent Clan Tech. If the IS Large Laser is much cooler than the Clan ER Large Laser in trading for range and heat, then that's not too bad a tradeoff.
Of course, there's issues to be gotten through like Clan XL vs IS... STD or XL. Right now, I'd rather set that discussion for later. It's another balance issue that has to be considered.
The thing about Clan Tech is that the benefits are numerous when unchanged from the stock specs. Clan ER Large Laser only take up one hardpoint. If we were to retrofit the Awesome-9M, you'd probably want a Standard Engine with 3 ERLL for the purposes of being an evil Zombie. Heck, even the Hunchback would have an epic pewpew on its head.
At least there is "some balance" with respect to Clan LRMs vs IS LRMs.. as their differences in behavior change their effectiveness (vs AMS at least).
A very old discussion occurred with DHS vs SHS... the purpose of the SHS is practically non-existent with the exception of a few builds. It only gets worse with IS DHS vs Clan DHS.
Overnight, a Stalker that is filled to the brim with IS DHS would immediately convert to Clan DHS, because then they could use IS Endo to provide the necessary tonnage to add more Clan DHS.
There would have to be a REASON to use what is considered "obsolete tech"... otherwise it would just a binary decision. There should be a situation use/purpose for old tech.
Let's just humor the idea that IS DHS when mixtech is allowed to cool @ 1.5 (or some higher number) instead of 1.4 for DHS in general. This would give Clan Mechs a reason to use IS DHS (assuming you allow mixing techs of DHS types like that). An additional bonus is if the mech that IS DHS is being used on is IS... so it would cool @ 1.6 (or some higher number). That way, IS DHS isn't going to be the first thing sold outright, where some Clan Mechs that have the spare crits (with their superior FF/Endo crit saving) would even consider using this (and it makes for great crit buffering too).
I doubt we'll ever see SHS become useful, but it's that kinda of idea that needs exploring at some point. If tech was actually balanced amongst themselves (EVEN if we never get mixtech), then it's better for the game.
It still doesn't make sense how Clan Gauss inherits all the benefits of being smaller in tonnage and crits, but IS version isn't like more durable or cools down faster as compensation. You could see "some attempts" done in MW4... even when mech customization still favored the Clan Gauss over IS Gauss (like across the board). At least it was attempted... just not in MWO.
So, let me just sum this up for the TL;DR crowd.
1) It's a bad idea, since it makes PUG matches reflect more gravely how much more Clan vs IS is an imbalance.
2) It does not teach the new player.. it tells them what the form of powercreep is, and they must get it above all else to even "compete".
3) Balancing Clan vs IS tech needs to be done for everything... even if it is to examine whether something is too effective or ineffective (not just mechs, but particularly Clan ballistics, IS Med vs Clan ERMED, and IS LL vs Clan ERMED) for what they bring to the table.
It's not going to work, and if you make it "work" the way you'd hope it to.. it will be a unmitigated disaster. # of players does actually affect the result of combat if they are of the same skill level. That's what makes this attempt literally impossible, and a waste of time. You gotta balance the weapons AS IF they could be equipped on any mech. If it were easier, I would just be running the balancing myself (and it would never happen). I would be aggressively tweaking subsystems... but it's not as black and white that a 10v12 would be good for the game.
2
Davers, on 06 March 2015 - 01:50 PM, said:
