44 replies to this topic

[cSand]

Allow FF upgrade to add additional armour, above and beyond the stock maximum levels, up to as much as it's "weight savings" would be. (Ie, 5 tons max armour, upgrade to FF, weight is 4.5 tons for same amt, now you can additional armour back up to 5 tons, increasing overall armour)


- slightly increases TTK
- makes FF actually worth using!

[Wintersdark]

And doesn't break stock builds, either, which is a major issue with most Fix FF suggestions.

[Chimperator]

Yea.. and then we need reflective and reactive armor too. But first of all they need to fix the Hitreg and HSR issues finaly.

[Karpi]

Chimperator, on 10 March 2015 - 09:49 AM, said:

Yea.. and then we need reflective and reactive armor too. But first of all they need to fix the Hitreg and HSR issues finaly.

I would love to see reflective and reactive armor as well. I know some ppl don't like the comparison, but if I remember correctly, you could do this in MW4. It actually helped when playing the campain and on certain levels. It would make a lot of sense to use reflective amor in CW if you are a IS player playing against the Clan Laser vomit, and would def make the game more inmersive. This, I would love to see!

[CocoaJin]

The reason why the application of more armor over the chassis max isn't viable with FF is because FF takes up more volume...it's bulky. Adding more FF armor over max would necessitate at best a reduction in mech movement due to the armor plates bumping and rubbing together. We'd have to have away to reduce torso twist, arm movement, strides and leg lifts so that the mech is basically hindered in terms of mobility in all areas....and this penalty can't be token, it has to be real and significant trade-off for that extra armor HP over max if we are going to start.

If FF gives a 12% increase in armor HP, then I suggest we see no less than a 20%(I'd be willing to argue 25% since sits approx double the HP increase, so even with a 1 to 1 increase in volume over weight loss means two adjacent armor surfaces would double their required clearance to avoid each other on an unmodified chassis/mech structure...the plates can only increase in volume in one direction due to it's fixed foot print for mounting) decrease in movement limits on that mech. This would reduce the power creep of an armor HP buff from FF.

Leave it alone! What we need is a resource, logistics and cost model in CW(hopefully it's coming sooner than later). In this way, FF becomes the economics strategy it ought to be in the management of war-time resources on the battlefield.

A proper war model will consider costs choices in waging war. These cost should be include in the calculations toward certain victory goals in the logistics aspect of the war. The cost/resource liability of loses need to not be placed on the player, it should be charged against the faction...and should impact that factions means of sustaining logistics.

Using and losing with Endo should create a larger deficit/charge than FF against the faction's logistics chain.

Edited by CocoaJin, 10 March 2015 - 12:24 PM.

[Twilight Fenrir]

Chimperator, on 10 March 2015 - 09:49 AM, said:

Yea.. and then we need reflective and reactive armor too. But first of all they need to fix the Hitreg and HSR issues finaly.

Reactive armor doesn't exist until 3063. Reflective, until 3058.

And, no, I don't think Ferro should allow for more armor to be added... It weighs less, but it's bulkier. Like aluminum vs steel. It takes more, to get the same strength, even though the end result is the same.

[CocoaJin]

How does FF not become the go to upgrade with this proposal? All Clanners(I point out Clanners because it's a known gripe for them to not have the same flexibility in armor upgrades, with fixed FF being the least desirable) with fixed FF will do is add more armor over max and/or add more weapon tonnage...which they have the greatest benefit of with lower slot and tonnage requirements on their weapons.

So Endo is restricted to proper function, but FF becomes some way to increase armor HP over max and still mount additional weapon, or a heavier weapon, or more heat sinks, etc? That's even more power creep.

Leave FF alone, wait for the devs to introduce a means for upgrade costs to affect Faction Logistics.

[SirNotlag]

I really like this idea because currently endo steel is the go to upgrade there isnt any point to upgrading Ferrous Fibers unless you still have the slots to spare, such as on the lights and mediums.

Granted this would be an a buff to lights as a whole since they all run both but if the system gives an additional 12% armour slots per component rounded down then that gives about 4 on center torso 3 per side torso and legs. These extra hits would not be free the light would have to drop a heat sink or some ammo to make use of them since they are currently built to take advantage of the weight FF saves them.

I really like this as it actually create a choice between endo and FF, currently all the heavy mechs run endo there just isn't any point to running FF but if it made them tankier they now get to choose between more fire power and equipment or more armour. Lets use an Atlas as an example currently he will save 5 tonnes using endo steel allowing him to carry abit more fire power, with this system if he ran FF he would get 14 extra armour points on centre torso and 10 on the side and legs, ( currently FF saves him 2.1 tonnes at full armour... completely pointless). Since he uses up the 2.1 tonnes to get the extra armour onto the mech he can now choose between the extra armour or the extra tonnage but he wont be able to run both as he doesn't have the slots for it.

An issue with how to implement it is with the Clans having no choice in the armour and structure of their mechs. It would only benefit some of their mechs. Personally I would not want to see more armour on the timberwolves and Storm crows.
Making it IS only would give them a bit of a buff as their lights are now slightly stronger than before ( as if light rushes wasn't a problem already) and some of their bigger mechs could become bullet sponges if built right, but at the cost of fire power.

Personally I really like this idea and would want it as an IS only implementation because it is easier to balance with them since all their chasis have the option and it costs them 14 slots. Yes the Thunderbolt could become tankier but it would loose 3 tonnes of equipment switching from endo to FF (for the record the Thunderbolt would get 10 extra armour points on the center torso and 6 on the sides and legs) and as a Thunderbolt pilot those 3 tonnes would really cut down on my firepower so I would still run Endo.

[Ultra-Laser]

Take a quick look at how many of the pro FF max armor boost folks are clan players.

Now check to see how many of the people saying to leave FF alone are Inner Sphere players.

Why did these players choose the side of the argument that they did?

[Matthew Ace]

I would lean towards an idea that gives mechs that do not benefit much from the weight savings compared to endo and can only choose one some sort of minor perks.

Simply put, just -5% damage taken to armored sections. Nothing major. Problem is when you start considering Mad Cats and Ryokens.

I have a much more complex idea but it's going to take me at least 2 weeks to finish up details. It involves limiting max armor by stock + 1-2 tonnage (but still able to max out armor at sections of your choosing) with several exceptions, defensive benefits to FF, defensive benefits to standard internals, and 3x TT Armor.

Edited by Matthew Ace, 11 March 2015 - 03:51 AM.

[Syn Pryde]

NO, categorically: "Because the CBT Compendium says so."
If you dont get along with the amount of armour on your mech, use Rocks, Buildings and your Team Mates as additional armour - especially Rocks and Buildings have more then enough. Team Mates dont like the idea, but if you have weapons and no armour and they have no weapons, a deal can usually be arranged.

EDIT: balance in CW clan vs IS is already ****** up enough, dont break it because of whining. If i can live with the armour of a locust or mist lynx, then learn to tank your atlas/dwf correctly by torso-swiveling. 64 points of armour is all you need.

cSand, on 10 March 2015 - 09:23 AM, said:

makes FF actually worth using!

It is worth using. In inner sphere designs usually if your mech is below 45 tons (thats the point of diminishing returns according to 25 years of CBT research) and in clan designs up to around 75 tons. after that space is the critical criteria.

also consider that whatever you do, FF saves weight, but:
most valuable upgrade is always an XL if you can live with the limitation of exploding side torsos
second most valuable upgrade is endo.
third is double heat sinks.
then weapons.
ferror - if at all - should be fitted if everything else works. (inner sphere, clan ferro is sometimes more useful then a double heatsink upgrade, specially when designing stuff below 25 tons.)

thats how you design mechs. not by feature creep.
sure, i want my small laser to deal 100 damage, can i haz ?

Edited by Syn Pryde, 11 March 2015 - 05:11 AM.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

I'm voting yes, but with two caveats.

This sort of idea should be counter-balanced by the existing weight class caps, along with introducing armor weight profiles from stock loadouts, and with quirks to aid any troubles due to MWO Hitboxes.

So if you look at the 100 tonners: the Atlas can carry 19 tons of armor up to the 614 Cap (so no benefit from Ferro in raising Chassis max armor to weight Class Max since it's already there), King Crabs are then limited to say their 16 tons (and may be plus 1 ton) of either armor (so they could see a benefit of keeping Ferro).

Another example with the 80 tonners: Victors could mount up to 12.5 tons of either armor, and so could benefit from Ferro. Awesomes would have their cap at ~15.4 or 494 so no benefit since it's already at max.

[wanderer]

Nope. All it does is allow more min-maxing.

You want higher armor ratings, they already exist without changing ferrofibrous.

http://www.sarna.net.../Hardened_Armor

That stuff can allow effectively doubled armor points, at a cost in mobility.

[Johnny Z]

I like the idea that allows for more mech rescources to be put into defense or systems rather than the ever increase in damage. So +1 here.

[Idealsuspect]

False good idea...

[VinJade]

[sarcasm]while we are at it why don't we make AC 2s do ten points of damage and knock assault mechs on their rears[/sarcasm]

the units already get more armor than what they should and does not need more armor.
it would just make some lights even more OP because of their hit boxes and assaults have a thick hide as it is.

instead of armor why not just reduce damage from all weapons as that would give you the same effect.

don't like the weapon idea? then you shouldn't like extra armor.

after all this isn't a Japanese game or anime where assault mechas can stand on one finger or take tons of damage for its weight class and shrug it off.

adding extra armor for FF and you are then riding on a fine line between what makes BT so unique from other games or just another robot fighting game.

Edited by VinJade, 13 March 2015 - 07:28 AM.

[AkoolPopTart]

No. Play Armor Core Verdict Day and then come back and tell me how much you want armor buffs.

Armor is fine. The last thing I need is some dude in an Atlas that has so much damage resistance that taking him down needs to be a community event that takes more than 30 minutes to complete.

[Kaeb Odellas]

To all the naysayers claiming more armor would break the game, this would amount to a 15 point increase in CT armor for an Atlas. This is not a particularly significant amount. Factor in the opportunity cost of forgoing Endo Steel, and you have a slightly tougher Atlas at the cost of speed, firepower, ammo, and/or cooling.

The real issue with this idea is that you'd have to be extra careful with Clan tech. Sure, some mechs like the Summoner, Warhawk, and the Clan lights may need the boost, but the Timber Wolf and Storm Crow most certainly do not. Plus, Clans would get a 20% boost compared to the IS's 12%, and at half the slots to boot.

[Kaeb Odellas]

CocoaJin, on 10 March 2015 - 12:22 PM, said:

Leave it alone! What we need is a resource, logistics and cost model in CW(hopefully it's coming sooner than later). In this way, FF becomes the economics strategy it ought to be in the management of war-time resources on the battlefield.

A proper war model will consider costs choices in waging war. These cost should be include in the calculations toward certain victory goals in the logistics aspect of the war. The cost/resource liability of loses need to not be placed on the player, it should be charged against the faction...and should impact that factions means of sustaining logistics.

Using and losing with Endo should create a larger deficit/charge than FF against the faction's logistics chain.

How would you implement FF/Endo logistics without making it a tremendous pain in the butt for the player?

[Vermaxx]

"Logistics" is a fancy way of saying 'repair bill.' I played with repair bills. They were fun to gimmick, and grossly ineffective at making players act smarter. They did cut down on LRM mechs...a LITTLE BIT...but they also made assault players few and far between.

An example, I could play a medium and get pasted, win or loss still make SOMETHING. An assault player could play well (torso twisting rather than getting cored) and PLAY LIKE AN ASSAULT, ie tank a charge...and end up losing money even on a win.

SOMETHING is needed to make CW have a point, because it doesn't. The completely pointless galaxy control map only worked in MPBT3025 because the game started out with one mode - fight for planets. Sure, the matches were essentially the same arena crap we have now, but the integrated goal was to hold or gain territory. Repair bills have already been proven to be a bad way to balance a field, because the poor get poorer, and the rich can afford to play stupid.

Having logistics in the form of resources you CAN RELOAD - armor, ammo, exotic items/ammo - tied to the planets your empire controls...that might be a step in the right direction. Minimal repair fees...but maybe your XL/endo/FF/gauss monster mech cannot be repaired instantly because your empire is getting crushed. Rolling unlock timers, which could be accelerated with microtransactions.

That would probably get branded pay to win though. It would be, somewhat, but the game has to find a point to CW and it has to find a way to make steady income; because premium time isn't worth the fees.