197 replies to this topic

[Stealth Fox]

Yokaiko, on 28 March 2015 - 07:40 AM, said:

You also have the -5S which is loaded like a Timberwolf, plus dual AMS and dual SRM4, same speed more firepower better tanking does everything a Timber does except is has better hardpoint locations and moves slower (ok a lot) slower.

Stalkers are one of the few mechs, Clan or IS that has never left the "I just Pooped my self" part of my brain when ever I run into one of them on accident in a match

[Coralld]

Vocis, on 28 March 2015 - 07:25 AM, said:

Clans aren't overpowered.

The Stormcrow and Timberwolf are.

This is correct, and needs to be addressed.

However, one of the reasons why they are the strongest is because of bad hit detection plus hit box warping, which allows them to tank better then a Direwhale.
My buddy and I did a privet game to test out why this is the case, and came to find out that depending on the angle you shoot at the Crow and Timber they will split the damage between two or more sections, even if you shoot them in the same spot, but from a different angle, this will happen. Also, the hunch area on the Crow is the most suseptical to doing this.
So you take that and throw in hit detection issues when in game and it's no wonder they are so tanky.
That's why I say we NEED to fix their broken hit detection before we do anything else to them.

And before people start spouting nonses on how the Crow and Timber just have favoritable hit boxes, let me just stop you right there.
I have dump 12 CMLs into the CT of a Crow who just sat there face tanking it like Silvester Stalone from Rocky and had its CT armor only go from yellow to orange. The pilot didn't even bother to torso twist.

Then there is the Crow who took 3 AC20s into the side, 2 from my Boom Crab and 1 from an Atlas and only had his armor turn yellow.

I have watched a Crow who was cored with cherry red CT live through a Boom Jager alpha and was indeed hit in the CT. I have had this happen to me as well when fighting Crows.

The list goes on and on and on.

The Timber does this as we'll but to a lesser degree, the Crow on the other hand is just atrociouse.

Edited by Coralld, 28 March 2015 - 08:01 AM.

[Stealth Fox]

Coralld, on 28 March 2015 - 07:56 AM, said:

This is correct, and needs to be addressed.

The list goes on and on and on.

The Timber does this as we'll but to a lesser degree, the Crow on the other hand is just atrocious.

I wonder what causes the difference here, because I stopped using my TW because every time I tried to Ridge peak by nose came back bloody red, I started doing Mad Dogs instead cause of it and STILL feel they are a better mech.. for me.. to drive then a TW.

[Coralld]

Seph MacLeod, on 28 March 2015 - 07:59 AM, said:

I wonder what causes the difference here, because I stopped using my TW because every time I tried to Ridge peak by nose came back bloody red, I started doing Mad Dogs instead cause of it and STILL feel they are a better mech.. for me.. to drive then a TW.

As I said, it's the angle at which you get hit that causes this to happen. Some angles if you get hit and the hit detection/hit boxes work fin, and is where you see people say they are fine, but if hit on a different angle, instead of being cored out, you just get a scratch.

I To have a Timber and Crow, and know what your talking about. Some times I make a bad move and get punished for as I should, other times I have made a bad move and where I should have died or at the very least heavy damage, but instead come out smelling like a rose.

One more thing of note from our tests. There was a theory that some how the omny pods we're some how messing with the hit boxes and thus making them worp, from our test, this does not appear to be the case.

Edited by Coralld, 28 March 2015 - 08:14 AM.

[Cabbage Merchant]

I think clan vs IS balance is fine where it is. It's not perfect, but clans should be better (at least at this point in the timeline). Obviously you can't have clans be as OP as they should be according to lore, because then only the diehard IS loyalists would play IS. That being said, I think that clan mechs have been nerfed enough. I'm actually a little worried the upcoming clan-ST loss nerfs will hurt the underperforming clan mechs too much. Obviously too soon to tell on that, but if that happens I hope PGI buffs those clan mechs up a little.

Edited by Cabbage Merchant, 28 March 2015 - 08:23 AM.

[Sarevos]

Thanks for the feedback guys but... I stated why there is a bit of imbalance and why the Timber and scrow are op.

those two occupy the highest weight available for their class have a high number of hardpoints and a lightweight engine... thats just the name of the game...

until there is something that has more theyre simply the most optimal of meds and heavies because theyre the CURRENT biggest with the most (or better) weapons/boating capability its not something you really can balance until there is another option. A marauder would give a tibber a run for its money with the optimal highish mouted torso hardpoints provided it can carry the same number of weapons but it or any option doesnt exist YET which is why its uncontested...

So yea op but only as op as a Catapult was back before other good heavies existed with no changes to them they have gone extinct because now there are better options

If all mechs are similar taking one with less tonnage/hardpoints in the weight class becomes almost a handicap and its difficult to justify without defined roles

as it stands there are only two roles

Murderboat

and

Glorified umbrella

why pick raven over firestarter? ecm

why hellbringer over timberwolf? ecm

we go to either kill everyone or mask everyone not much else. quirks have helped but the pressing issue is that the game doesnt have enough niche roles to make most mechs viable

[Yokaiko]

Cabbage Merchant, on 28 March 2015 - 08:22 AM, said:

I'm actually a little worried the upcoming clan-ST loss nerfs will hurt the underperforming clan mechs too much. Obviously too soon to tell on that, but if that happens I hope PGI buffs those clan mechs up a little.

There is no saving the underperformers with the current ruleset.

Starting from the top.
Warhawk, to hot WAY WAY to hot, arms to low for peaking (Awesome syndrome) completely useless LT, breaking the RT neuters the mech and physically HUGE Since PGI refuses to play with scaling, and won't unlock that LT or add hardpoints, its stuck, and this is one of the BETTER assualts.

Gargoyle SERIOUSLY SERIOUSLY too much motor. The prime has literally room for FOUR tons off ammo...loadout x2 SRM6 x2LB5X and not close to enough ammo to run either for an entire game PGI's quirks to the prime arms? 10 ROF (christ on a crutch can you get worse) tanks like crap due to being taller than an Atlas, not really that maneuverable DESPITE the 400XL so you end up with a slightly faster Thunderbolt -5SS that has most of its firepower in the arms. Without being able to toss that 400XL, there is no saving that mech, short of thunderbolt tier quirks on the energy hardpoint pods it will remain useless.

Summoner. with full armor you have a whopping 21.5 tons for heatsinks, ammo, and weapons, its heavily hardpoint restricted which normally would mean a few big guns, NOPE no tonnage for big guns, by the way it overheats on the 7th shot with an ER-PPC ALONE so guass/PPC or streak are the most common builds, which is a flat out waste of tonnage, because I can stormcrow, which if I'm going to light hunt Crow does it better, faster, cooler, and carrier more ammo with the same loadout (it has a LOT more space) AND those pods have NEGATIVE missile quirks With 5 of JJs, no endo etc. Yeah, death by hardlocked gear.

Mad Dog, more negative quirks, not enough energy slots to laser vommit, not enough weight to mass ballistics, and geometry...ye gods, its made of paper, if you can't hit the STs on it you need to re-evaluate. Good speed, but missile heat detection. So it'll throw up good numbers sometimes, but lacks punch

Nova, well named, I think the only mech in the game that will explode with a single alpha and its stock loadout. Can't tank, ALL of its weapons are in the arms and stuck with full JJs, you play well despite the chassis not because of it AND you do it by stripping off weapons so a mis-click on the mouse doesn't kill you. Can't shield the STs and can't hide its arms, and at 50 tons it doesn't have a ton of armor to take a big LR hit.

Ice Fart....I don't even know where to start here, its fast and ummm....yeah, the fridge runs fast....badly

Kitfox, TO SLOW, sure you can set it up as a light killer, but then its not lights you have to worry about, its BIG mechs because you aren't that fast at 106kph pretty much any competent shot will blow it apart in a couple seconds, and they do. Again, locked engine, and now locked JJs with the applicable pods. Because Shitfoxes were to damn stonk! This one doesn't have enough engine, it may

Badder again, TOO HOT quirks for the ER-PPC pod? ROF WHEN IT SHUTS DOWN IN LITERALLY THREE SHOTS ....THREE again, too slow, big artwork, its a medium, and not even a fast medium with light armor. All of the weapons you can jam on don't really help because dead mechs do very little damage

MLX 25 tons with a 6th of its tonnage tied up in JJs and CAP of all things.....you can overheat the thing with the jump jets, before shooting anything, gives up half of it weapons for ECM leaving all else in one 25 ton arm, doesn't have the hardpoints to match even a Commado in firepower, and cries when it sees locust roll by with 6 lasers.

[FupDup]

[Armorine]

I'm all IS. I have one clan mech. A kit fox gathering dust I got for free. I feel that the clans are right where they should be. Should be somewhat of a challenge to drop one. That being said the only mech I worry about on the field is the doom crow. The timbers big enough it's an easy target. Tired of getting hit at range? Use actual tactics to close the gap and get in that clanners face. We have terrain for a reason. USE IT!

That being said I'm looking forward to the st loss changes. Should make things interesting for sure.

Edited by Armorine, 28 March 2015 - 09:34 AM.

[Mirumoto Izanami]

FupDup, on 28 March 2015 - 09:31 AM, said:

...

Awesome..though the IS should be repped by a Stalker. Atlas, sadly, isn't in top form in MWO.

[Sarevos]

Armorine, on 28 March 2015 - 09:33 AM, said:

I'm all IS. I have one clan mech. A kit fox gathering dust I got for free. I feel that the clans are right where they should be. Should be somewhat of a challenge to drop one. That being said the only mech I worry about on the field is the doom crow. The timbers big enough it's an easy target. Tired of getting hit at range? Use actual tactics to close the gap and get in that clanners face. We have terrain for a reason. USE IT!

That being said I'm looking forward to the st loss changes. Should make things interesting for sure.

it wont change anything major at the time the st is actually destroyed about half of the weapons are gone which is way more important than a piddly movement debuff they dont really need to be nor CAN be nerfed just need to have other viable options.

[Bulletsponge0]

Hillslam, on 28 March 2015 - 02:02 AM, said:

my data comes from the map - if the clans were fighting clans to any significant degree whatsoever the map would look COMPLETELY different than it does. no - the clans are pretty much only attacking IS planets.

because thats the goal of CW... clans racing to Terra

IS v IS happens a lot because several IS factions don't have an attack lane to any Clan territory

[Sarevos]

Most complain about the Tibber scrow because its the only thing competitive clan players field because theyre simply the biggest dogs in the yard.

The actual difference is compounded by the fact that most comp players worth their salt dont field much less than optimal unless theyre just having fun. So the compounded effect of fulltryhard + what is simply the most optimal build at the time = oh my god its SO op when in reality it IS a bit (hence its place in the meta) but not by as badly as people are thinking.

Edited by Sarevos, 28 March 2015 - 09:45 AM.

[Yokaiko]

Sarevos, on 28 March 2015 - 09:11 AM, said:

Thanks for the feedback guys but... I stated why there is a bit of imbalance and why the Timber and scrow are op.

those two occupy the highest weight available for their class have a high number of hardpoints and a lightweight engine... thats just the name of the game...

Its not Timber's fault Orion sucks, and PGI won't chance bringing the real IS heavies (Warhammer, Marauder etc) which are in this timeline in because of Harmony gold, they can't afford the legal battle, even if they DO win it.

Sarevos, on 28 March 2015 - 09:11 AM, said:

until there is something that has more theyre simply the most optimal of meds and heavies because theyre the CURRENT biggest with the most (or better) weapons/boating capability its not something you really can balance until there is another option.

Flat out incorrect, Thunderbolts outlaser Timbers, and outtank them you have a mech with no need for its arms and and a ST tanking bonus that is getting a 60% reduction because LOOK MAH NO ARMs. Grasshoppers are energy boating fools, by the way the IS MPL to clan 85% of the damage 66% of the heat, 66% of the burn time 66% of the range same weight.

....before you add quirks which range between 10% and get as high as 30% in the case of the -5SS

Sarevos, on 28 March 2015 - 09:11 AM, said:

A marauder would give a tibber a run for its money with the optimal highish mouted torso hardpoints provided it can carry the same number of weapons but it or any option doesnt exist YET which is why its uncontested...

...and its never going to.

Sarevos, on 28 March 2015 - 09:11 AM, said:

So yea op but only as op as a Catapult was back before other good heavies existed with no changes to them they have gone extinct because now there are better options

No changes? That mech was nerfed three ways from Sunday since CB
The reason Guass is 3hp and auto explodes? Guass-a-pults,
"dynamic geometry" making the ears even BIGGER Splatcats
Ghost Heat set to two? Boomcats (and boom Jagers truthfully)

Sarevos, on 28 March 2015 - 09:11 AM, said:

If all mechs are similar taking one with less tonnage/hardpoints in the weight class becomes almost a handicap and its difficult to justify without defined roles

Thunderbolt exceeds in Hardpoints and armor, Grasshopper exceeds in hardpoints, Awesome exceeds in hardpoints and Armor (specially with all of the tanking bonuses

Sarevos, on 28 March 2015 - 09:11 AM, said:

as it stands there are only two roles


Murderboat

and

Glorified umbrella

Blame the maps, there is no real reason to use lights, there is no real reason to require long range, and most fighting happens at spitting distance....

Sarevos, on 28 March 2015 - 09:11 AM, said:

why pick raven over firestarter? ecm

Yeah, you don't get paid to ECM though, not like it does for damage, and that 2 llas raven requires a team that is going to win without it to get any sort of score. FS9s stand on their own, its kill it or it kills you quickly

Sarevos, on 28 March 2015 - 09:11 AM, said:

why hellbringer over timberwolf? ecm

Not to mention tanks better, more able to deal with the heat generation

Sarevos, on 28 March 2015 - 09:11 AM, said:

we go to either kill everyone or mask everyone not much else. quirks have helped but the pressing issue is that the game doesnt have enough niche roles to make most mechs viable

We have been screaming that since CB.

[Sarevos]

Bulletsponge0, on 28 March 2015 - 09:40 AM, said:

because thats the goal of CW... clans racing to Terra

IS v IS happens a lot because several IS factions don't have an attack lane to any Clan territory

dont feed into that its kind of unfounded Clans are attacking one another too look at the cw map link i posted earlier

[Sarevos]

Yokaiko, on 28 March 2015 - 09:45 AM, said:

Flat out incorrect, Thunderbolts outlaser Timbers, and outtank them you have a mech with no need for its arms and and a ST tanking bonus that is getting a 60% reduction because LOOK MAH NO ARMs. Grasshoppers are energy boating fools, by the way the IS MPL to clan 85% of the damage 66% of the heat, 66% of the burn time 66% of the range same weight.

....before you add quirks which range between 10% and get as high as 30% in the case of the -5SS


Thunderbolt exceeds in Hardpoints and armor, Grasshopper exceeds in hardpoints, Awesome exceeds in hardpoints and Armor (specially with all of the tanking bonuses

Thank you for actually putting backed responses

Quirks dont really count for the purposes of why the Timber unquirked is not op... they needed those quirks for a reason and even still its hard to lose one on one with a Tbolt or Grasshopper as you can out run him/manuever him for much less and less fragile weight any in your face is mech is not going to be rocking an XL if he can help it it's suicide and at distance they will be a bit outgunned

[Sarevos]

Yokaiko, on 28 March 2015 - 09:45 AM, said:

Its not Timber's fault Orion sucks

Never said it was. But that does prove that is an inferior model

Yokaiko, on 28 March 2015 - 09:45 AM, said:

No changes? That mech was nerfed three ways from Sunday since CB
The reason Guass is 3hp and auto explodes? Guass-a-pults,
"dynamic geometry" making the ears even BIGGER Splatcats
Ghost Heat set to two? Boomcats (and boom Jagers truthfully)

While it was the cause 3 of these were not a change to the mech but to the overall system

and the bigger ears wasnt going to change much you really spun in and ran out after firing so you were never exposed for that long.

But good points all around

Yokaiko, on 28 March 2015 - 09:45 AM, said:

Blame the maps, there is no real reason to use lights, there is no real reason to require long range, and most fighting happens at spitting distance....

I do actually lol... hence why I suggested game mode alternatives

Yokaiko, on 28 March 2015 - 09:45 AM, said:

Not to mention tanks better, more able to deal with the heat generation

Nah people can shoot your ecm box over your head even while youre shielding if you crop the ears of your timby hes a much lower profile

But the fact that you have an expendable side works its nice you do not have more heat diss though with standard/ armoring up weighs a bit more than the timby both elited i have more not many just more heat issues in the HBR. laser vomit and then rapid poke on tibber is pretty strong just dont alpha all the time

Edited by Sarevos, 28 March 2015 - 10:08 AM.

[Hillslam]

DarthRevis, on 28 March 2015 - 06:54 AM, said:

...
Also, If you knew what you were talking about or paid attention to the early days of CW the CLANS fought the hell out of each other. Found out who was tougher then who and the squabbling stopped.
...
Nice try to bash clanners though ****** passive aggressive Clams is OP line? If you think clans are OP just say it, dont hide it in your text bud. thats what cowards do.

Bullshit. Nice fiction. I was there. I own all the clan mechs, mastered em all, and played both faction sides in CW til it grew boring. You act like all clan CW battles are initiated by premades which is also bullshit. Clans fight IS matches because they want the UNeven fight, plain and simple. The clan fluff just provides an absurd context/excuse for it.

And as for mincing my words - try accusing that without putting words in my mouth. I didn't say clans were op. I said they don't want the fair even fight. They don't. Its known, Its a fact. Look at forum posts and the CW map for the proof. I don't havea problem with most clan mechs. I DO have a problem with clan players constant belly-aching and whining that they're under some huge disadvantage. They're not. I own em all. When some clan twaddle goes and whines up a possibility that warrants looking into I go fire up that clan mech for my damn self and see. I always wreck face in them.

As for what I think of clan players, let me be clear so you're not afraid i'm being passive aggressive. I think clan players are sad [Redacted] with far less skill than they think they have, who chose to comically roleplay an [Redacted] fluff (that was [Redacted] from the moment it was conceived, as even the damn creator has said) - even doing so *outside* of the game in order to boost their egos - as opposed to having a nice competitive evenly matched self contained PvP computer game of skill. They want asymmetrical warfare of heroes-V-hordes with a baked-in gear advantage so that they can play the hero and give no thought or care if that means other paying customers or new players pay to be their huckleberry. Its short-sighted ego-greed of the highest self-serving childish narcistic type.

In short: [Redacted]

Ergo 3025 mode.

That clear enough for you?

Edited by GM Patience, 01 April 2015 - 02:44 PM.

[Yokaiko]

Sarevos, on 28 March 2015 - 09:54 AM, said:

Thank you for actually putting backed responses

Quirks dont really count for the purposes of why the Timber unquirked is not op... they needed those quirks for a reason and even still its hard to lose one on one with a Tbolt or Grasshopper as you can out run him/manuever him for much less and less fragile weight any in your face is mech is not going to be rocking an XL if he can help it it's suicide and at distance they will be a bit outgunned

Then don't play poke poke, with a -5SS in my unit we call it, Range, Brawlers, lights, assualts and whatnot and you adjust the tactics to the wave.

Timbers are great at long range, the are terrible brawlers, they can't sustain any sort of damage once you force them to shoot continuously, IS have a number of mechs that can match them at range, Stalker -4N is the big on, but ER-LLAS -5SS is competitive and doesn't have to slow down.

Sarevos, on 28 March 2015 - 10:05 AM, said:

Nah people can shoot your ecm box over your head even while youre shielding if you crop the ears of your timby hes a much lower profile

...and has to expose the ENTIRE CT to fire over a rise

Khobai, on 28 March 2015 - 08:18 AM, said:

But the fact that you have an expendable side works its nice you do not have more heat diss though with standard/ armoring up weighs a bit more than the timby both elited i have more not many just more heat issues in the HBR. laser vomit and then rapid poke on tibber is pretty strong just dont alpha all the time

Great, so you are down to 4-mas in 2-2 shots, I can deal more damage with 55 tonners (and do)

[Sarevos]

Yokaiko, on 28 March 2015 - 10:12 AM, said:

Then don't play poke poke, with a -5SS in my unit we call it, Range, Brawlers, lights, assualts and whatnot and you adjust the tactics to the wave.

Timbers are great at long range, the are terrible brawlers, they can't sustain any sort of damage once you force them to shoot continuously, IS have a number of mechs that can match them at range, Stalker -4N is the big on, but ER-LLAS -5SS is competitive and doesn't have to slow down.

Yea but you're comparing an assault mech to a heavy in that last part...

Also at no point should anyone in the faster mech be staring pensively into his opponents loving lasery gaze lol you would hit and run somewhat negating the difference in heat efficiency as youre not firing as often as you can but when you can place a shot being in the faster mech gives you control of the when.

Yokaiko, on 28 March 2015 - 10:12 AM, said:

...and has to expose the ENTIRE CT to fire over a rise

or you can dart betweent buildings or peek around corners faster speed means faster moving out and back in...
also who just exposes themselves over a ridge anymore?

Yokaiko, on 28 March 2015 - 10:12 AM, said:

Great, so you are down to 4-mas in 2-2 shots, I can deal more damage with 55 tonners (and do)

huh? this seems sarcastic... I was agreeing that the expendable torso was better on the HBR in essence agreeing with your statement... I dont understand...