94 replies to this topic

[Bishop Steiner]

Divine Retribution, on 18 May 2015 - 01:43 PM, said:

I don't see much of a point to the thread. If mixtech comes it will likely be a long way down the line. We have no way of knowing the state of the game at that time. Everything could be shooting gummy bears by then; gummy balance could be perfect. I doubt many of the forum warriors... errr current players, will still be hanging around at that time.

Even the factions won't be the same. To also throw out random speculation that I'll likely never see but may help to feed forum warriors, in 3103 the Rasalhague Domionion if founded. Mixtech after that is irrelevant.

Cool. So why bother commenting if you don't see a point? Some of us do see the point, because balance now is off, and common sense says seeing how the eventual mixtech would be impacted, is actually one of the best indicators of current balance issues.

[Divine Retribution]

Except that mixing tech isn't an indicator of clan vs IS balance as a whole. But you're right, I shouldn't bother posting to the lost.

[Bishop Steiner]

Divine Retribution, on 18 May 2015 - 01:53 PM, said:

Except that mixing tech isn't an indicator of clan vs IS balance as a whole. But you're right, I shouldn't bother posting to the lost.

don't let the door hit ya on the way out.

[anonymous161]

Kain Thul, on 18 May 2015 - 07:57 AM, said:

This game won't even get that far.

Agreed contract ends 2020 if I remember right but I seriously doubt there will be any real population by then, no one is gonna spend money when it's about to be shut down and it will happen.

btw inner sphere is op now get over it. It's why I play as sphere over clans anymore, pgi clearly likes sphere much better than clans why else make the is better quirked, massive mech library and cheaper vs clans that get nerfed all the time.

I aint spending a penny on this game anymore, sure five years left but...seriously doubt this will be better than any new games that come out by then mp wise.

Bishop Steiner, on 18 May 2015 - 01:49 PM, said:

Cool. So why bother commenting if you don't see a point? Some of us do see the point, because balance now is off, and common sense says seeing how the eventual mixtech would be impacted, is actually one of the best indicators of current balance issues.

The game has always been imbalanced but this mixed tech I doubt will even come to be. How long did it take a broken cw to be released?

[DAYLEET]

Bishop Steiner, on 18 May 2015 - 07:23 AM, said:

lot's of stuff

Lets start talking about ERA right now. Instead of having a huge mishmash to balance together.

First, You would still have the free for all that is solo and group queue.

Then: You could have in game mission that have certain rules ERA.

You would have queues for each mission and you could see which one is most full or about to go like in mmos with different pvp match. So mostly everyone would play every game mode since it would be the fastest way to play thus everyone would get his share of the timeline he wants to play.

You could have CW SEASONS where the next 3 months is certain era and then its another. Seems like a lot of easy content to make the daily melting of metal more fun and diverse. This would add a rp side that would be more interesting than just Clan vs IS.

The hard part is trusting everyone wont just play the era where they are strong :/ But at least we would be having is vs is.

[Bishop Steiner]

Darth Bane001, on 18 May 2015 - 01:58 PM, said:

Agreed contract ends 2020 if I remember right but I seriously doubt there will be any real population by then, no one is gonna spend money when it's about to be shut down and it will happen.

btw inner sphere is op now get over it. It's why I play as sphere over clans anymore, pgi clearly likes sphere much better than clans why else make the is better quirked, massive mech library and cheaper vs clans that get nerfed all the time.

I aint spending a penny on this game anymore, sure five years left but...seriously doubt this will be better than any new games that come out by then mp wise.




The game has always been imbalanced but this mixed tech I doubt will even come to be. How long did it take a broken cw to be released?

mixed tech will come out exactly when PGI feels it will sell more mechpacks.

[Tombstoner]

Bishop Steiner, on 18 May 2015 - 02:01 PM, said:

mixed tech will come out exactly when PGI feels it will sell more mechpacks.

That will be right after PGI starts releasing original mech designs. That will be an interesting forum day.
What ???? you gave that thing 6 energy hard points in each arm and 4 ballistic in each torso..... P2W....

[Wintersdark]

Bishop Steiner, on 18 May 2015 - 01:28 PM, said:

Actually, not entirely true. in many cases the "7.5%" better range...are you really arguing that's a 3 ton advantage? REALLY? You can rail against the IS Quirks all you want, and in some cases be justified, but the reasons Clan Get less on avg, is because despite all the Customization QQ, and crappy UACs, the Clan Tech is still BETTER on avg.

I don't rail against quirks. I actually don't mind most of them at all. Is 7.5% range worth a 3t advantage? Most of the time, no. Of course, I tend to value range lower than most people do - see all the tears about "The Clan Range Advantage" after all. 7.5% range = 710m instead of 660m. So, maybe not worth 3 tons, but the Clan Gauss is objectively not a 100% upgrade.

Quote

And also as Quirks make their rounds through the clans, even less so. Which is why basing stats off the Quirks is still a fallacious argument, as the degree or even existence of quirks varies entirely from mech to mech.

Degree varies, but existence? Lets play a game. Name a mech that could reasonably mount gauss and that has no ballistic quirks, and I'll name TEN mechs with not only +ballistic quirks, but ones that have at least one significant quirk improving the gauss rifle dramatically.

Medium mechs? With the exception of the Shadowhawk, every ballistic medium has at least +10% generic ballistic cooldown, and almost all also either go to 15-20% cooldown or add 10+% velocity or range.

Heavy mechs? Again, with the exception of the FB(surprisingly), ctf 3d and K2, all of them are adding substantial quirks. 10, 12.5, 15% cooldown, most with large velocity or range quirks too.

Assault mechs? Still, every one has quirks improving those goose waffles. The quality varies more here, but generally only because they tend to be more heavily weighted to AC20's and less generalist. Still, at least half have at least a 10% cooldown quirk.

It's not "some", it's very damn near ALL.

You can't ignore quirks and say IS tech is inferior, because no IS mechs use those weapons at their base level. Yes, it makes the discussion hard to have, but it's inescapable. Those quirks are on ALL THE MECHS. I make no claim to that being good or bad, but it's a real thing.

The same applies to other weapons too, of course.

[Deathlike]

FupDup, on 18 May 2015 - 09:26 AM, said:

...Which is why Mixtech should simply never happen. Forcing each faction to stay technologically isolated makes the balancing process WAY easier because we can use both direct and less direct/sneaky methods of evening things out. But let them combine, and you'll be able to grab the best from one side and the best from the other, while bypassing the weaknesses of both.

Mixtech is eventually going to happen. As much as I believe it is inevitable, balance cannot simply allow it to be a straight upgrade between IS and Clan (whichever happens to be more superior at the time).

It needs to be a decision between what you need out of the loadout... even MW4 at least attempted to have differences between the IS LL, Clan ERLL, and all other laser weaponry. Unfortunately, weapons like Gauss and LRMs favored Clan until Mektek even bothered diversifying those weapons.


Anyways... for the stat tracking..

IS Streaks are FASTER (well, it's just the SSRM2) than the Clan versions (I doubt it's incredible vs AMS though), but it's kinda negligible ultimately when you lose to the range battle AND have the Clan SSRM6 options available.

Still, it is worth pointing out.

[Bishop Steiner]

Deathlike, on 18 May 2015 - 04:48 PM, said:

Mixtech is eventually going to happen. As much as I believe it is inevitable, balance cannot simply allow it to be a straight upgrade between IS and Clan (whichever happens to be more superior at the time).

It needs to be a decision between what you need out of the loadout... even MW4 at least attempted to have differences between the IS LL, Clan ERLL, and all other laser weaponry. Unfortunately, weapons like Gauss and LRMs favored Clan until Mektek even bothered diversifying those weapons.


Anyways... for the stat tracking..

IS Streaks are FASTER (well, it's just the SSRM2) than the Clan versions (I doubt it's incredible vs AMS though), but it's kinda negligible ultimately when you lose to the range battle AND have the Clan SSRM6 options available.

Still, it is worth pointing out.

Egads, however did I miss 20 m/s, lol?

[Deathlike]

Bishop Steiner, on 18 May 2015 - 06:52 PM, said:

Egads, however did I miss 20 m/s, lol?

It didn't happen.

[lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol]

Bishop Steiner, on 18 May 2015 - 07:23 AM, said:

writing is on the wall stuff

So in asking an honest question, with how they're "fixing" and "balancing" things now, do you think they have the capability of balancing above issues? I mean if you've thought about this, I would HOPE that perhaps they would have too... but like you said, "the general "faction vs faction" balancing act will completely and utterly fail." So why would they keep painting themselves into the same corner? If something fails the first time (Referencing August 8th Clan ER LG Laser nerf and nerfhammers that followed) then I can predict the second time around will have very similar results...

Edited by 00ohDstruct, 18 May 2015 - 07:53 PM.

[Kristov Kerensky]

MixTech....ugh. MW2:Mercs, great example of MixTech, horrible what it does to the game for anyone but the top comp players who don't give a surat's furry ass what they use to win, so long as they win, and they'll all drive the same things. Just like in the leagues for MW2:Mercs that didn't segregate Tech. MW4 did it as well, with a hardpoint system somewhat similar to what MWO has, and we all know how well MixTech worked in that.

It's a straight up CharlieFrank AND Hail Mary move in one fell swoop. Balance is no longer an issue because everyone literally has the same toys across the board. Quirks would stay in place because the quirks are SUPPOSEDLY based on the Chassis NOT the weapons*muffled laughter* so PGI won't see any reason to change them while allowing MixTech. Which means we'll see mainly IS Chassis with everything else Clan on them.....just like MW2:Mercs and MW4, remember? And is a Clan Gauss on a Grid Iron really any different than an another Grid Iron with a Clan Gauss mounted on it?

[Bishop Steiner]

00ohDstruct, on 18 May 2015 - 07:50 PM, said:

So in asking an honest question, with how they're "fixing" and "balancing" things now, do you think they have the capability of balancing above issues? I mean if you've thought about this, I would HOPE that perhaps they would have too... but like you said, "the general "faction vs faction" balancing act will completely and utterly fail." So why would they keep painting themselves into the same corner? If something fails the first time (Referencing August 8th Clan ER LG Laser nerf and nerfhammers that followed) then I can predict the second time around will have very similar results...

do they?

YES.

Will they?

Probably not.

The roadmap to balancing the game is not that hard to figure out, though there would be much QQ along the way. But hey, the QQ is always strong, so why not?

And it doesn't even require sized hardpoints, heatscale revamp, etc, or anything drastic, though those would be nice.

This issue begins with the fact we have ZERO constitency, zero base line. That starts with tier 1 tech. Then, all the clan whining and Joe's machismo aside, as a PvP game, you sidegrade all tech based on that. One doesn't even need, or really want, truly perfect balance. You just need to close the yawning chasms we have now. And then, onl then use quirks to spackle the gaps.

The issue is that not only does PGI seem unwilling to do that, but too much shortsighted forum QQ, and too many agendas, including amongst those that PGI seems to listen to, to see it happening.

Or at least, see it really fixed. But, it is not unreasonable to try to head off the most egregious balance issues, at the pass. And who knows, sometimes, food for thought sinks in. I have to hope that Russ has more foresight than someone like Divine Retribution has demonstrated, by being able to connect the dots on the pretty picture I drew here.

The sad part is how many people on these forums either can't, or choose NOT to see the connection.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Metus regem, on 18 May 2015 - 07:28 AM, said:

Bishop, I've been saying it for a while, once Clan Battle mechs / mixed tech happens, any kind of "balance" in MWO will be out the window.

Which is why when Clan battlemechs arrive, they need to simply stick to current Omnimech construction rules. This game has drifted away from TT.

MWO needs standards and crap to base its changes off...

IS construction is how it is now

Clan construction follows the current Omnipod rules, even for Clan Battlemechs

IS Omnimechs then follow current CLan omnipod rules.....no change, keep it the same.

Mix tech just needs to never happen.........not in MWO....

[MechWarrior849305]

Didn't read all that topic.
K.Crab with clan XL+C-Gauss and IS ER LLs, paired with clan Doubles
...
Give me two

Edited by DuoAngel, 18 May 2015 - 09:23 PM.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Mix tech will favor IS much more then CLans

IS will take CLan XLs and CLan DHS with IS Laser vomit....then people will still be QQing that Clans are OP.....

[MechWarrior849305]

LordKnightFandragon, on 18 May 2015 - 09:25 PM, said:

Mix tech will favor IS much more then CLans

IS will take CLan XLs and CLan DHS with IS Laser vomit....then people will still be QQing that Clans are OP.....

Nope. Most of IS mechs have better geometry in MWO. Give IS clan XLs, clan weaponry (Gauss and ER-MLs) - you will not see ANY clan mech on the battlefield (with the exception of TBR, I guess - Iconic mech, that people will play just to play).
Jaeger with C-XL and C-Gauss. Little to say more.
K.Crab vs Daishi. DWF can fly, lol.
Banshee.
Stalker - even with limited to 310 engi.
B.Jack.

But it is as of now, when we have limited clan chassis. Can't say what will be with Gladiator and Sh-Cat when mixtech will be available

Edited by DuoAngel, 18 May 2015 - 09:36 PM.

[Alex Morgaine]

Bishop Steiner, on 18 May 2015 - 08:34 AM, said:

no offense Joe, but that's one of the worst ways to view balance in a game, period.


IRL and Videogames or Entertainment, are two vastly different things. In a videogame there is no reason to even introduce something if it simply is going to be obsolete. Waste of resources.

Every expansion to any mmo that increases the level cap.
Anyone remember...way back...the QQ on world of warcraft when the burning crusades dropped... and 95 percent of vanilla end game (lv 60, what is it now, 100?)was considered useless to lv 55+ quest rewards?

If, and I stress if, the game runs long enough to look into the idea of crossing anything from tech to full mechs in cw, we will either have things actually balanced, and lots of old items/mechs well still go dodo, or just accept that the game probably won't have much more going for it. Even if no tech is crossed, we'll still phase out older tech for more advanced tech.

[kapusta11]

So you acknowledge the fact that Clan TECH is simply better (you forgot to mention CXL engines, endo and ferro upgrades and 2 crit DHS) yet you justify TBR and SCR nerfs. In other words, when min-maxed clan mech is better by definition than min-maxed IS mech the proper solution is to nerf all mechs that happened to be optimized in their stock config on the winning side, right? So all future Clan mechs that happened to have endo and ferro upgrades, adequatelly sized engine, have no fixed useless equipment and are not oversized, i.e. the majority of Clan mechs after invasion, should be nerfed?