94 replies to this topic

[DONTOR]

Actually, clan SRMs have a slightly worse spread as Mcgral pointed out in another thread, so not 100% pure upgrade. Also hopefully Clan battlemechs (Kodiak) and friends, will be in the game by that time to even the playing field.

[KuroNyra]

Bishop Steiner, on 18 May 2015 - 08:34 AM, said:

no offense Joe, but that's one of the worst ways to view balance in a game, period.


IRL and Videogames or Entertainment, are two vastly different things. In a videogame there is no reason to even introduce something if it simply is going to be obsolete. Waste of resources.

And that's the kind of Balance that brought nerf that we know.

2 Second Clan Large laser vs 1.2 Second IS large laser.
While Clans can only use 2 at the same time and IS 3 at the same time... Waitwhat?

cdlord, on 18 May 2015 - 08:42 AM, said:

Have you seen the whining on the forums now? The much needed and anticipated (that's right, anticipated, no idea why people are all surprised) balancing the game now has people in an uproar let alone what could happen in a year or two...

People knew nerfs were coming. But not nerf THAT stupid. Seriously, PGI literraly nerfed what wasn't even a real problem to start with.

Edited by KuroNyra, 18 May 2015 - 08:45 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

DONTOR, on 18 May 2015 - 08:44 AM, said:

Actually, clan SRMs have a slightly worse spread as Mcgral pointed out in another thread, so not 100% pure upgrade. Also hopefully Clan battlemechs (Kodiak) and friends, will be in the game by that time to even the playing field.

by having unlimited customization, clan-XLs and generally superior weapons? Not sure how that evens things, but will take your word for it.

[Lugh]

Everyone will use the weapons with the shortest burn times. Less face time, means more living.

[Bishop Steiner]

Lugh, on 18 May 2015 - 09:04 AM, said:

Everyone will use the weapons with the shortest burn times. Less face time, means more living.

unless a legit reason can be made to use the longer burn weapons. Like less heat or markedly better range, or something. But yeah, minmaxxing will take on a whole new level.

[Davers]

Mix tech will either completely break the game, or just create a new meta where no one uses IS medium lasers/SRMs or Clan autocannons.

[Lugh]

Bishop Steiner, on 18 May 2015 - 09:07 AM, said:

unless a legit reason can be made to use the longer burn weapons. Like less heat or markedly better range, or something. But yeah, minmaxxing will take on a whole new level.

The most disturbing thing is that clan ballistics are NOT superior. And they should be.

[Bishop Steiner]

Lugh, on 18 May 2015 - 09:09 AM, said:

The most disturbing thing is that clan ballistics are NOT superior. And they should be.

No ballistics should be outright superior in a PvP game. But they should at least be competitive with the IS. And should have been done so before nerfing TBR and SCR energy abilities.

[Lugh]

Bishop Steiner, on 18 May 2015 - 09:10 AM, said:

No ballistics should be outright superior in a PvP game. But they should at least be competitive with the IS. And should have been done so before nerfing TBR and SCR energy abilities.

But here they are. And with quirks it's even worse.

Back in the day, you used a UAC5 for its ability to double tap and pour out damage it was simply better. NOW with a dragon (my favorite) You use an AC 5 for the same RoF due to it's over quirked nature and zero chance of jamming.

Moving away from the basic math as it stood in the rules of table top was their first mistake. It continues to be the ROOT of all their problems with balance and implementation today.

[Bilbo]

Lugh, on 18 May 2015 - 09:17 AM, said:

But here they are. And with quirks it's even worse.

Back in the day, you used a UAC5 for its ability to double tap and pour out damage it was simply better. NOW with a dragon (my favorite) You use an AC 5 for the same RoF due to it's over quirked nature and zero chance of jamming.

Moving away from the basic math as it stood in the rules of table top was their first mistake. It continues to be the ROOT of all their problems with balance and implementation today.

There is no balance in TT with respect to Clan and IS tech. As everyone likes to gleefully repeat, "Clan tech is supposed to be better"

[FupDup]

...Which is why Mixtech should simply never happen. Forcing each faction to stay technologically isolated makes the balancing process WAY easier because we can use both direct and less direct/sneaky methods of evening things out. But let them combine, and you'll be able to grab the best from one side and the best from the other, while bypassing the weaknesses of both.

[Lugh]

Bilbo, on 18 May 2015 - 09:21 AM, said:

There is no balance in TT with respect to Clan and IS tech. As everyone likes to gleefully repeat, "Clan tech is supposed to be better"

Correct. it's why many of the mechs we've piloted to this point are obsolete. When the clans came in they had to make better mech or die by the scores trying.

PGI refuses to implement clan Stars 5 mechs vs IS 10 mans(?) because the balancing on how to get the MM to work makes their heads hurt. Probably due to over think.

For each clan make on a side in MM Reduce the overall team size for thier side by 2. 6 clan mech face 12 IS mechs.
5 clan mechs and 2 IS mech face a 12 man IS team or a similar 5 and 2 team.
Then the tech CAN be better and the teams can be balanced on a rough basis.

[FupDup]

DONTOR, on 18 May 2015 - 08:44 AM, said:

Actually, clan SRMs have a slightly worse spread as Mcgral pointed out in another thread, so not 100% pure upgrade. Also hopefully Clan battlemechs (Kodiak) and friends, will be in the game by that time to even the playing field.

IS SRMs have 0.15 more damage per missile and 0.2 less spread.

Clan SRMs require HALF the tonnage, and the SRM6 is only 1 slot instead of 2.


The magnitude of "tradeoffs" here is pretty heavily skewed...

[Bilbo]

Lugh, on 18 May 2015 - 09:28 AM, said:

Correct. it's why many of the mechs we've piloted to this point are obsolete. When the clans came in they had to make better mech or die by the scores trying.

PGI refuses to implement clan Stars 5 mechs vs IS 10 mans(?) because the balancing on how to get the MM to work makes their heads hurt. Probably due to over think.

For each clan make on a side in MM Reduce the overall team size for thier side by 2. 6 clan mech face 12 IS mechs.
5 clan mechs and 2 IS mech face a 12 man IS team or a similar 5 and 2 team.
Then the tech CAN be better and the teams can be balanced on a rough basis.

Due to the nature of how this game works, I'd be willing to bet that, given equal pilot skill, the Clans are going to lose that match 99% of the time no matter the tech advantage.

[Joseph Mallan]

Bilbo, on 18 May 2015 - 08:09 AM, said:

Equally equipped because you are forced to ignore all other equipment? Sure....

I would say nobody is pointing a gun at you Bilbo... But that would be misinformation...
You are also talking to the guy who is not running clans or vomiting lasers Has a Stalker with a Gauss and 2 PPCs etc...

[Straften]

You should have to unlock the Clan tech by winning an IS tech only vs Clan tech only PvP mission. Then at least it would be earned to some degree. Same with the inverse, but less challenge and reward for Clanners imo.

FupDup, on 18 May 2015 - 09:26 AM, said:

...Which is why Mixtech should simply never happen. Forcing each faction to stay technologically isolated makes the balancing process WAY easier because we can use both direct and less direct/sneaky methods of evening things out. But let them combine, and you'll be able to grab the best from one side and the best from the other, while bypassing the weaknesses of both.

It would certainly be more boring, wouldn't it? More balanced technically, but even more boring than balanced.

[Bilbo]

Joseph Mallan, on 18 May 2015 - 09:41 AM, said:

I would say nobody is pointing a gun at you Bilbo... But that would be misinformation...
You are also talking to the guy who is not running clans or vomiting lasers Has a Stalker with a Gauss and 2 PPCs etc...

I'm up for a challenge as much as the next guy, but I don't consider banging my head against a wall for the sake of doing so a challenge. I've also never been accused of being a slave to the meta.

[Wintersdark]

Mixtech depends on whether quirks are tech specific or not

As things stand, for example, clan gauss is objectively superior to IS gauss. Until you put that gauss rifile on any IS mech, and it magically gets better. In practice, on every single IS mech, gauss has better stats than the clan version.

Quirks have then forced them to avoid mixtech. Quirks allow rough balance between chassis and between factions, but going to mixtech totally destroys that. Imagine a Grid Iron getting its quirked Gauss *and* saving a couple tons/slots in the process? Or even a JM6?

As things stand, the quirk disparity (very roughly) compensates for the tonnage disparity between the chassis.

I don't see a way forward with mixtech without totally overhauling weapon stats AND quirks.

[STEF_]

Did you say something?

All I can dream is "double light gauss" Hellbringer....

[FupDup]

Stefka Kerensky, on 18 May 2015 - 11:05 AM, said:

Did you say something?

All I can dream is "double light gauss" Hellbringer....

Light Gauss has the same tonnage as the Clan regular Gauss. :\