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When Mixtech Does Inevitably Arrive (Hopefully A Long Ways From Now) How Anyone Really Thought About The Complete And Utter Imbalance?


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#1 Bishop Steiner

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Posted 18 May 2015 - 07:23 AM

Not even thinking about quirks (which judging by how poorly they seem to get reimplemented with each pass, is going to be a whole new can of worms), but due to the nature of PvP faction action, PGI supposedly has decided to make Clan Tech "SideGrades" instead of "Upgrades".


It's kind of true, loosely, sort of, as long as the tech remains separate. But Russ has even acknowledged that eventually MixTech WILL happen. And you think the QQ now is bad?

Let's just look at the Weapons:

Energy:
-Clan Pulse Lasers vs IS Pulse Lasers: Mostly Upgrades
(slightly longer beam duration on clans, otherwise better)

-Clan ER Lasers vs IS ER Lasers: Really hard to say, ATM. Beam Duration sucks on C-ERs, but CERMLs are pretty insane for 1 ton.
(traditionally IS ERSL and MLs have always sucked)

-IS Standard Lasers vs Clans: Well, win for the IS, as the Clans don't have any.
(C-ERSL is superior to IS SL though, and the IS ML has always been unfairly burdened with 1 pt more heat than it should.)

-Clan ERPPC vs IS ERPPC: Pure 100% Upgrade
(IS does have a standard PPC, which is cooler, but does less total damage, lower velocity, less range, and has a minimum range. There is a reason it is even less used than the hotter IS-ERPPC)

-Clan Flamer vs IS Flamers: 100% pure upgrade.
(It's worthless trash for both factions, but it's half the weight worthless trash for the Clans)

Ballistics:
-Clan LB-10X vs IS LB-10X: Pure 100% upgrade.
(No reason to think other LB-Xs will be different)

-Clan UAC5 vs IS UAC5: Despite extra weight, IS UAC5 is superior, due to PP-FLD.
(Probably be the same when other UACs are introduced. Probably ALL UACs IS and Clan, should be burst fire, with velocity and burst duration balancing weight factors.)

-Clan AC vs IS AC: IS AC clearly superior.
(Clan ACs which should not even exist, are lighter, but burst is purely inferior to PP-FLD, and weight difference is not enough to counter.)

-Clan Gauss vs IS Gauss: 100% pure upgrade.

-Clan MGs vs IS MGs: 100% pure upgrade

Missiles:

-Clan SRMs vs IS SRMs: 100% 98.5% pure Upgrade
(I forgot about that massive .075% damage boost. For half the weight, and an SRM6 that takes up 1 less crit. Thanks Aniviron!)

-Clan SSRM2 vs IS SSRM2: 100% pure upgrade
(No reason to think larger launchers won't be also)

-Clan NARC vs IS NARC: 100% pure upgrade.

-Clan LRMs vs IS LRMs: Marginal to Moderate in favor of Clans.
(One of the few instances it's relatively close to a sidegrade. IS LRMS hit en masse, and thus tend to defeat AMS better, but Clan launchers are half weight, and for chainfire LRMing are better. I give the clans the nod because of half weight, but not half effectiveness. Not that I am arguing they should be half as effective. But even as bad as LRMs overall are, at half weight a clan mech can usually afford to bring a rack, just in case.)

Support:
-TAG and AMS are a wash.
-C-ECM vs IS ECM: 100% pure upgrade
-CAP vs BAP: 100% pure upgrade

And of course, we will see a whole host of other goodies, from MRMs, to HAGs, to Light and Heavy Gauss to RACs introduced eventually too, to further muddy the waters. And this doesn't even begin to address the inherent OmniMech Customization vs Battlemech Customization arguments, the dreaded Clan Battlemech Customization balance issues to come, basic structure, armor and engine comparisons, etc.

All of which, IMO need to be balanced against each other in a bubble, because once mixtech comes, the general "faction vs faction" balancing act will completely and utterly fail. Weapons need to be balanced vs weapons, chassis vs chassis, and gear vs gear, and then only then, should quirks be added to make up for any real bad shortcomings.

So, while I have ideas on all these things, to one degree or another, this is simply to show why so much of the balance arguments and methods presented are short sighted and will fail. Starting with PGIs. More as a "food for thought" PSA, I suppose.

Provecho!

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 18 May 2015 - 01:37 PM.


#2 Metus regem

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Posted 18 May 2015 - 07:28 AM

Bishop, I've been saying it for a while, once Clan Battle mechs / mixed tech happens, any kind of "balance" in MWO will be out the window.

#3 sycocys

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Posted 18 May 2015 - 07:28 AM

This is of course assuming they will be allowing mechs to equip cross-tech, which I doubt. More likely is they will begin implementing the IS tech versions of clan equipment and start allowing mixed decks for CW.

#4 Bishop Steiner

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Posted 18 May 2015 - 07:31 AM

View Postsycocys, on 18 May 2015 - 07:28 AM, said:

This is of course assuming they will be allowing mechs to equip cross-tech, which I doubt. More likely is they will begin implementing the IS tech versions of clan equipment and start allowing mixed decks for CW.

except Russ has stated that while they haven't thought about it much, it WILL happen, I believe it was a couple Town Halls ago. But that they wanted to focus on the Segregated Tech for now.

#5 sycocys

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Posted 18 May 2015 - 07:37 AM

mix tech is a pretty broad concept, and something that PGI hasn't thought much about.... well they spent 2+ years thinking a lot about CW. Take it for what it is, and don't worry about it at all.

#6 Bishop Steiner

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Posted 18 May 2015 - 07:46 AM

View Postsycocys, on 18 May 2015 - 07:37 AM, said:

mix tech is a pretty broad concept, and something that PGI hasn't thought much about.... well they spent 2+ years thinking a lot about CW. Take it for what it is, and don't worry about it at all.

because that approach has worked so swimmingly for PGI overall. Enjoy your TBRs and SCRs on tuesday!

#7 Kain Demos

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Posted 18 May 2015 - 07:57 AM

This game won't even get that far.

#8 Bilbo

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Posted 18 May 2015 - 07:57 AM

It will break any semblance of balance the game has now and most likely any semblance of balance the game has when/if they do it. No one will ever use an IS engine of any kind. Very few will bother with Clan ACs. IS heat sinks might as well not exist either.
There is no way I can think of to make the things that will become obsolete worth taking once you implement mixed-tech.

#9 Dolph Hoskins

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Posted 18 May 2015 - 08:01 AM

I have thought about this some and I suspect that the whole concept of mixed tech, specifically weapons, are beyond the scope of how far they intend to take this game. A finalized CW will be the precursor to cruise control.

This is just my speculation based off of throwing seeds in the wind and what the rat bones say.

#10 Joseph Mallan

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Posted 18 May 2015 - 08:03 AM

Imbalance? Everyone will only use the equipment they think is best and will ignore the rest. Perfect balance.

#11 Bilbo

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Posted 18 May 2015 - 08:06 AM

View PostJoseph Mallan, on 18 May 2015 - 08:03 AM, said:

Imbalance? Everyone will only use the equipment they think is best and will ignore the rest. Perfect balance.

Hardly what I consider balance. More like giving up on the idea of balance and just rolling with it.

#12 Joseph Mallan

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Posted 18 May 2015 - 08:07 AM

View PostBilbo, on 18 May 2015 - 08:06 AM, said:

Hardly what I consider balance. More like giving up on the idea of balance and just rolling with it.

Balance is everyone is equally equipped. At least for most folks.

#13 Bilbo

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Posted 18 May 2015 - 08:09 AM

View PostJoseph Mallan, on 18 May 2015 - 08:07 AM, said:


Balance is everyone is equally equipped. At least for most folks.

Equally equipped because you are forced to ignore all other equipment? Sure....

#14 Trainwreck

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Posted 18 May 2015 - 08:27 AM

Think about it this way, would you use a phone booth if you have a smartphone in your pocket? Tech always advances and leaves older tech in the dust so its perfectly natural that the less advanced IS tech would eventually go the way of the Dodo. IS and Clan tech were never meant to be equal in any way shape or form, otherwise why would there be any advancements at all? You wouldn't build a toaster that looks different yet still performs the same function and market it as an advancement.

Edited by Trainwreck, 18 May 2015 - 08:28 AM.


#15 ArchAngelWC

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Posted 18 May 2015 - 08:29 AM

View PostTrainwreck, on 18 May 2015 - 08:27 AM, said:

Think about it this way, would you use a phone booth if you have a smartphone in your pocket? Tech always advances and leaves older tech in the dust so its perfectly natural that the less advanced IS tech would eventually go the way of the Dodo. IS and Clan tech were never meant to be equal in any way shape or form, otherwise why would there be any advancements at all? You wouldn't build a toaster that looks different yet still performs the same function and market it as an advancement.


You know by bringing up toasters you show your Wobbie leanings :)

#16 Bilbo

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Posted 18 May 2015 - 08:32 AM

View PostTrainwreck, on 18 May 2015 - 08:27 AM, said:

Think about it this way, would you use a phone booth if you have a smartphone in your pocket? Tech always advances and leaves older tech in the dust so its perfectly natural that the less advanced IS tech would eventually go the way of the Dodo. IS and Clan tech were never meant to be equal in any way shape or form, otherwise why would there be any advancements at all? You wouldn't build a toaster that looks different yet still performs the same function and market it as an advancement.

I wouldn't have put the Clan tech in the game in competition with IS tech at all. But here we are.

#17 Bishop Steiner

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Posted 18 May 2015 - 08:34 AM

View PostJoseph Mallan, on 18 May 2015 - 08:03 AM, said:

Imbalance? Everyone will only use the equipment they think is best and will ignore the rest. Perfect balance.

no offense Joe, but that's one of the worst ways to view balance in a game, period.

View PostTrainwreck, on 18 May 2015 - 08:27 AM, said:

Think about it this way, would you use a phone booth if you have a smartphone in your pocket? Tech always advances and leaves older tech in the dust so its perfectly natural that the less advanced IS tech would eventually go the way of the Dodo. IS and Clan tech were never meant to be equal in any way shape or form, otherwise why would there be any advancements at all? You wouldn't build a toaster that looks different yet still performs the same function and market it as an advancement.

IRL and Videogames or Entertainment, are two vastly different things. In a videogame there is no reason to even introduce something if it simply is going to be obsolete. Waste of resources.

#18 Joseph Mallan

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Posted 18 May 2015 - 08:39 AM

View PostTrainwreck, on 18 May 2015 - 08:27 AM, said:

Think about it this way, would you use a phone booth if you have a smartphone in your pocket? Tech always advances and leaves older tech in the dust so its perfectly natural that the less advanced IS tech would eventually go the way of the Dodo. IS and Clan tech were never meant to be equal in any way shape or form, otherwise why would there be any advancements at all? You wouldn't build a toaster that looks different yet still performs the same function and market it as an advancement.

As a matter of fact I did just this about a month ago. I was at a concert at a small venue. The lobby was still to loud but they had a phone booth. I stepped inside and made my call. So, yes I would use a phone booth to make a call in the right situation. Now using a payphone when I have a charged cell phone... Yes if there was no cell reception!

View PostBishop Steiner, on 18 May 2015 - 08:34 AM, said:

no offense Joe, but that's one of the worst ways to view balance in a game, period.
None taken. As I see it balance cannot be had unless everyone uses the same equipment.

View PostBishop Steiner, on 18 May 2015 - 08:34 AM, said:

no offense Joe, but that's one of the worst ways to view balance in a game, period.


IRL and Videogames or Entertainment, are two vastly different things. In a videogame there is no reason to even introduce something if it simply is going to be obsolete. Waste of resources.

The UrbanMech! By right should be the biggest waste of resource ever... but you wanted it in the worse way. And PGI had to break it's own construction rules just to make it work... Was that a good use of resources? :huh:

Do understand I am happy you got it, but Dude. So many better Mechs.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 18 May 2015 - 08:45 AM.


#19 CDLord HHGD

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Posted 18 May 2015 - 08:42 AM

Have you seen the whining on the forums now? The much needed and anticipated (that's right, anticipated, no idea why people are all surprised) balancing the game now has people in an uproar let alone what could happen in a year or two...

#20 Joseph Mallan

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Posted 18 May 2015 - 08:44 AM

View Postcdlord, on 18 May 2015 - 08:42 AM, said:

Have you seen the whining on the forums now? The much needed and anticipated (that's right, anticipated, no idea why people are all surprised) balancing the game now has people in an uproar let alone what could happen in a year or two...

There is an Acronym for this CD... SOSDD!





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