231 replies to this topic

[Y E O N N E]

FupDup, on 27 May 2015 - 04:19 PM, said:

I don't want to just jack up the durations on everything because I remember when the Clan ERLL had a 2.0 second beam... It was pretty sad. Even at 1.65s it was pretty silly. 1.5s seems to be the borderline for "maximum viable duration" for lasers, and even then the CERLL gets away with it because of having such crazy extreme range.

The CERLL is maxed out, any longer than 1.5s just won't work. The rest could maybe see a small bump up (like, no more than +0.1s, depending on which specific one), but I don't want to make them into facetank derp guns. :\ I don't want heat increases because certain chassis will have a hard time fitting enough sinks to make up for it. I don't want to use just range reductions (maybe small ones, but nothing drastic) because those would make their overall "feel" similar to IS lasers...perhaps too similar. So, that leaves the raw upfront damage.

The ERML and CLPL are the biggest outliers to be sure, but they're not the only ones that mostly beat their IS counterparts. Also, hitting just those two alone could have some others rise up to take their place.


On a side note, keep in mind that the IS regular LL has always been a somewhat mediocre weapon, even before the Clans got added. The Clan invasion just highlighted it more drastically with weapons that point and laugh at it. I don't think the current, unquirked IS LL is a suitable baseline for lasers in general.



PS: And yes, some future tech would help. I personally want Light ACs, Magshots, AP Gauss, and Protomech ACs so that mechs under 65 tons with ballistic hardpoints don't have to feel so shafted...

I'm not suggesting all Clan lasers get their durations increased, though. The C-ERLL is actually only a tenth of a DPS better than the IS ERLL as it stands, and I'd sooner reduce the C-ERLL burn to 1.4 seconds and the IS ERLL to 1.15 seconds (7.86 and 7.83 burn dps, respectively) than increase C-ERLL at all. The IS ERLL (and all IS ER lasers) would also need a moderate range advantage to truly compare 1 to 1 with the C-ERLL, Lower damage potential at optimum, greater poke range at the extreme edge, and damage parity in the middle. Given generally slower speeds on IS 'Mechs, I think that's very fair, and Clans still retain better damage and range per ton spent.

And you are right, there are others that will rise, notably the C-MPL and maybe the C-ERSL. The C-ERSL has 5 dps over a burn but is 200 meters, though, and that is a hefty, hefty drawback. Nobody seriously uses IS Medium Pulse when they are 220 meters even if they've got the tonnage because it's generally a critical handicap on anything that isn't running faster than 100 kph. As for the C-MPL, it's got good range and amazing punch per ton, but has slightly less damage over duration than an IS Medium Pulse and operates within IS standard laser ranges. It can be much more easily replied to with Inner Sphere gear than a C-ERML build, and cool-running standard MedLas with 297 meters on the module and 3 heat would be about equivalent when joined with one or two LPL. 330 meters is the edge of brawling range, and another 30 meters can be probably be closed even with IS engines. I think only minor adjustments would be required to C-MPL, and if LFEs, X-Pulse, LPPC, HPPC, Magshots, and LAC join us, they might even need help. All of the Clan stuff might need some help!

I'm also not really using the stock LL as a baseline, because I also think it's pretty terrible. I'm using the STK-4N quirked one and so was PGI. It is the closest thing the Inner Sphere have for an answer to the combination of C-LPL and C-ERML with its 1 second burn and comparable range equivalency when quirked and modded to 540 meters (vs. a mix of 445 and 660), a value I think suits it much better than the positively anaemic 450 meters it comes with stock. A heat reduction to 6.5 in conjunction with a base-range improvement to 495 (500?) meters would make it a lot more palatable versus the ERLL described above, being a better general-use weapon while the significantly hotter (8 vs. 6.5) ERLL is only brought out of the shed if you really need ER capabilities, much like the C-ERLL is right now.

It's definitely not an easy puzzle and I think we need additional equipment to truly solve it, but I honestly believe this is the right track: parity in damage over burn and damage at highest optimum range in class with better damage potential on Clans and better exposure on Inner Sphere. A Clan player can hold for the same amount of time as IS and do the same damage at the expense of wasted heat, but also retains the option of delivering more damage if the IS player does not return to cover. It's not the straight Clan superiority some people want, but it does preserve Clan efficiency with regard to damage and range per resource without totally clobbering the other side, and I think that's the best we can do unless the game incorporates asymmetrical teams.

[1453 R]

I think the track with Spheroid ER equipment is going to sortakinna follow the iLL/iERLL/cERLL split - Spheroid standard is low heat, short range, moderate damage; Spheroid ER is moderate heat, moderate-high range, moderate damage; Clan ER is high heat, high range, moderate-high damage.

Something like 5/3/270 for the iML, 5/4/450 for the iERML, and 6/5/450 for the cERML. Just by eyeballing it, mind. I'm away from my numbers at the moment.

'High-damage' lasers are the domain of pulsebeams in my book, and they should trade range for it. It's why I honestly believe the cERML could go down to 6 points of damage but the cMPL can stay at 8 - the cMPL would be dragged back to the 270-meter range of Spheroid standard ML range in my ideal world, and in that range it's a two-ton gun that deals eight damage vs. two tons of iML that collectively deal 10 damage. Beam durations mostly being a wash between the two, the cMPL comes out ahead on hardpoint efficiency but behind in overall power-to-weight, which would be a place to start.

Edited by 1453 R, 27 May 2015 - 05:40 PM.

[ShinobiHunter]

FupDup, on 27 May 2015 - 03:16 PM, said:

In terms of heat, it mostly depends on the build being used. Some builds do indeed run real hot, but those builds also often have a larger alpha strike than their IS counterparts (and often more range). If somebody builds a Clan mech with a similar laser alpha as an IS mech, they can have pretty similar heat efficiency (maybe even slightly better) while still getting the range bonus.

For duration, the only one that really suffers is the Clan ER Large. In its case, this has pushed it into a niche sniper role, which it can actually perform well...it's just a one-trick-pony at that job. I think slightly shortening its duration might be fair if some other nerf was applied at the same time (see below).


In general, the kind of Clan laser nerf I would focus on would be a damage reduction. The medium and larges can have 1 point of damage shaved off, but I dunno what to do with the smalls. I don't want to inadvertently make them as crappy as their IS counterparts.

The Clan smalls might just lose 0.5 damage instead, along with reducing their ranges to original values (i.e. 180m for CERSL instead of 200m). That, or still reduce their damage by 1, but also reduce their heat at the same time (i.e. maybe 4 damage and 2.5ish heat on CERSL?).

Speaking of smalls, IS smalls still needs loving of their own.

I guess I just dislike the duration on Clan lasers. It's one of the big reasons I don't play Clans more often. I'd rather use Clan AC's than lasers But from a balance standpoint, I'm sure you're right.

[Deathlike]

ShinobiHunter, on 27 May 2015 - 05:54 PM, said:

I guess I just dislike the duration on Clan lasers. It's one of the big reasons I don't play Clans more often. I'd rather use Clan AC's than lasers But from a balance standpoint, I'm sure you're right.

The duration isn't that much more.

IS ERLL = 1.25

Clan LPL = 1.12
Clan ERMED = 1.15

IS Med = .9
IS LL = 1.00

Clan MPL = .85
Clan ERSML = 1.00

The only thing that is disturbingly long is the Clan ERLL. That's it.

[Ultimax]

Deathlike, on 27 May 2015 - 06:11 PM, said:

The duration isn't that much more.

IS ERLL = 1.25

Clan LPL = 1.12
Clan ERMED = 1.15

IS Med = .9
IS LL = 1.00

Clan MPL = .85
Clan ERSML = 1.00

The only thing that is disturbingly long is the Clan ERLL. That's it.

Unfortunately for the CERLLAS, it can be a problematic weapon with it's range, low weight and single crit slot allowing it to be put literally anywhere there is an open E hardpoint on a Clan mech.

A few teams in particular at one point were running massed CERLLAS and it can be pretty stifling for other styles of play.


It's the one weapon where I'd probably have been OK with them increasing the CD cycle by an extra 30% or so to keep it in check, instead of the current burn time - but I've never really had issues with the 1.5s burn time personally - and PGI also nerfed the IS ERLLAS to 1.25s because at that point they were trying to reduce the range the game tends to be played at.


It's still a good weapon in it's niche.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 27 May 2015 - 06:22 PM.

[Deathlike]

Ultimatum X, on 27 May 2015 - 06:21 PM, said:

Unfortunately for the CERLLAS, it can be a problematic weapon with it's range, low weight and single crit slot allowing it to be put literally anywhere there is an open E hardpoint on a Clan mech.

A few teams in particular at one point were running massed CERLLAS and it can be pretty stifling for other styles of play.


It's the one weapon where I'd probably have been OK with them increasing the CD cycle by an extra 30% or so to keep it in check, instead of the current burn time - but I've never really had issues with the 1.5s burn time personally - and PGI also nerfed the IS ERLLAS to 1.25s because at that point they were trying to reduce the range the game tends to be played at.


It's still a good weapon in it's niche.

I get the use of the CERLL's current niche... and it's good in the sense that it isn't a primary staple of a player's loadout (because massing CERLL would be relatively easy compared to massing CLPL), but by the same token it is too long duration-wise for what I need lasers to do in general, so it's going to stay that way for a bit.

I'd rather have the IS ERLL duration be lowered a smidgen first (from 1.25 to 1.2) and lower the CERLL to 1.4.. though the CERLL would probably need a damage reduction to go with it (at least half a point to a point). I'm not really concerned about the CERLL though.

[Y E O N N E]

1453 R, on 27 May 2015 - 05:40 PM, said:

I think the track with Spheroid ER equipment is going to sortakinna follow the iLL/iERLL/cERLL split - Spheroid standard is low heat, short range, moderate damage; Spheroid ER is moderate heat, moderate-high range, moderate damage; Clan ER is high heat, high range, moderate-high damage.

Something like 5/3/270 for the iML, 5/4/450 for the iERML, and 6/5/450 for the cERML. Just by eyeballing it, mind. I'm away from my numbers at the moment.

That's similar to what I have in my mind, but I'm not willing to let Clans have such an absolute edge in range because they also have a hard edge on total damage and a firm edge in speed.

So sML is 5/3/270, ERML is 5/4/450, and C-ERML is 7/6/405. Durations would be 0.9 s, 0.9 s, and 1.25 s, respectively, with cool-downs being 2.5 s, 3 s, and 3 s. All of the medium lasers are doing around a nominal 5.6 damage per second over their burns. The Clan option allows you to do more damage if the situation permits, but you can also release your hold and return to cover after 0.9 seconds and still have done the same damage as the IS option if you are willing to temporarily waste that heat cap. It's an option the IS do not have and it has a drawback, just like being able to swap engines at the cost of weight or durability is an option the IS have that the Clans do not...but with a drawback.

The extra range on the ERML makes up for the Clans having more damage potential because they can engage for full potential slightly sooner, but it's not a huge edge since at 450 meters a vanilla C-ERML is still doing more damage.

The short cool-down on the sML synergizes with the lower heat and allows it to fire more quickly in brawling situations, dealing more DPS without overriding the MPL entirely. MPL could possibly use a reduction in cool-down to 2.5 seconds as well.

Quote

'High-damage' lasers are the domain of pulsebeams in my book, and they should trade range for it. It's why I honestly believe the cERML could go down to 6 points of damage but the cMPL can stay at 8 - the cMPL would be dragged back to the 270-meter range of Spheroid standard ML range in my ideal world, and in that range it's a two-ton gun that deals eight damage vs. two tons of iML that collectively deal 10 damage. Beam durations mostly being a wash between the two, the cMPL comes out ahead on hardpoint efficiency but behind in overall power-to-weight, which would be a place to start.

The pulse beam is about high impulse damage, not just straight damage.The C-MPL is doing a whopping 9 dps over less than a second, and really doesn't give up too much range. The C-LPL does 11.6 and has amazing range. The only two Inner Sphere lasers (out of all lasers) that eclipse their Clan counterparts in impulse damage are the MPL at 10 and the LPL at 16.4. But both of them trade tremendously on range, even the LPL because it's a 7 ton laser that doesn't even break 400 meters. The IS MPL and LPL are good brawling and striking weapons, but generally poor to mediocre skirmish and firing-line weapons on account of range and weight, respectively.

I'm not so sure the C-MPL needs to be dragged down to sML ranges, because to me it's the same situation as the Stalker vs. the Timberwolf: the former has a uniform loadout of 6x LL at some range between the split of C-LPL and C-ERML. In this case, you've got IS LPL with superior range and sML with inferior range combining in the same way that the C-LPL and C-ERML do. The C-MPL splits the difference. The IS doesn't necessarily need a direct 1-to-1 gun because the answer for 6x C-MPL is 2x LPL with 5x ML or 2x LL with 6x ML. You can fit that on a 'Mech as small as a Blackjack 1X with a Standard engine letting you run at the nominal Clan speed of 89.1 kph. It'll be even easier on a Hunchback or any number of IS 'Mechs with 7+ Energy hard-points, doubly so if and when LFEs show up.

Not dragging the C-MPL down also leaves room for X-Pulse to appear, otherwise the Clans would be completely out-classed. They will already be out-classed if LAC and LPPC appear if nothing is done about their auto-cannons.

Deathlike, on 27 May 2015 - 06:33 PM, said:

I get the use of the CERLL's current niche... and it's good in the sense that it isn't a primary staple of a player's loadout (because massing CERLL would be relatively easy compared to massing CLPL), but by the same token it is too long duration-wise for what I need lasers to do in general, so it's going to stay that way for a bit.

I'd rather have the IS ERLL duration be lowered a smidgen first (from 1.25 to 1.2) and lower the CERLL to 1.4.. though the CERLL would probably need a damage reduction to go with it (at least half a point to a point). I'm not really concerned about the CERLL though.

As mentioned in my last post, IS ERLL at 1.15 seconds and C-ERLL to 1.4 seconds gives both nearly the same DPS over their durations. 7.83 vs. 7.86 DPS, respectively.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 27 May 2015 - 08:41 PM.

[Yokaiko]

FupDup, on 27 May 2015 - 04:39 PM, said:

I don't think it was ever at the full 12 heat, however. I think the highest was either 9 or 10. It's been a long time since then...

Yeah closed beta, LLAS was a 1.25 sec burn at 9 heat for 9 damage and ER-LLLAS was 1.5 sec 12 heat 9 damage...with only SHS no one touched either of them, it was better to just stack mlas or slas...specially slas.

[Yokaiko]

Yeonne Greene, on 27 May 2015 - 06:34 PM, said:

That's similar to what I have in my mind, but I'm not willing to let Clans have such an absolute edge in range because they also have a hard edge on total damage and a firm edge in speed.

Apples to apples IS ER-LLAS (9 damage 8 heat 1.25 second burn) and Clan ER-LLAS (11damage 10 heat 1.5) have all of a 65m difference in range (clan pre-nerf)

......Its the pulse lasers where they are closer to TT stats that have a huge variance.

[Ultimax]

Deathlike, on 27 May 2015 - 06:33 PM, said:

I get the use of the CERLL's current niche... and it's good in the sense that it isn't a primary staple of a player's loadout (because massing CERLL would be relatively easy compared to massing CLPL), but by the same token it is too long duration-wise for what I need lasers to do in general, so it's going to stay that way for a bit.

What I found after using it pretty extensively is that it's great for long range - very few weapons have the ability to trade with it in it's range bracket.

Maintaining beam on target was more a matter of positioning and fire lanes.

The extended burn makes it much weaker the closer you get, it quickly becomes untenable to use it at short ranges and even mid-range is challenging.



It's too long to be efficient the way the game is played currently in the public and solo queue, but the irony is that the gameplay is fast and short ranged because most clan mechs - especially heavies, are extremely fast and force that type of gameplay.



I get the frustration some players have with it, but then I remind myself that 2 of them only weighs 1 ton more than a single IS LPL and only takes up as many slots.


I stopped using them when they were 2s, that was over the top. I find them very good in their niche at the current duration on non-TBR/SCRs.

[Yokaiko]

Ultimatum X, on 27 May 2015 - 08:20 PM, said:

I stopped using them when they were 2s, that was over the top. I find them very good in their niche at the current duration on non-TBR/SCRs.

Good at posting damage numbers, anyone that can roll really chops into the effectivenes, its like god mode with quirked IS pulses, I shoot stuff falls off, you may get a smart one with clan burn times.

[Pjwned]

Mystere, on 27 May 2015 - 04:37 PM, said:

Actually, whether a stock build is decent or not is what should be irrelevant. Stock builds should be providing benefits precisely because they need no modification. But, this basic principle has been turned over its head by the existence of a Mech Lab (or rather by people spoiled by its existence).

Stock builds should be decent, sure, but the fact is that they're not (aside from a few exceptions) out of well over 100 mech variants. Aside from the mech lab being the way it is, stock mechs are also bad because c-bills are not a balancing factor in this game and BV doesn't exist, so when there's no benefit to bringing cheaper mechs then stock mechs don't really have a place and that's just how it is.

Providing an exception to 1 stock build just because people might actually want to use it is not a proper solution because it would require re-working every other stock build to not be terrible (unless you wanted to be incredibly biased and unfair by making a single exception) and that's not going to happen either.

Edited by Pjwned, 27 May 2015 - 08:35 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Yokaiko, on 27 May 2015 - 08:16 PM, said:

Apples to apples IS ER-LLAS (9 damage 8 heat 1.25 second burn) and Clan ER-LLAS (11damage 10 heat 1.5) have all of a 65m difference in range (clan pre-nerf)

......Its the pulse lasers where they are closer to TT stats that have a huge variance.

It's a difference that's both too small and the wrong way. Clan has extra damage and can make up a range deficit with it, IS cannot. Apples to apples, the IS should have a range advantage to compensate for the damage advantage on the Clan laser. That is how any other game would do it.

The Clan pulse lasers are supposed to get balanced out by X-pulse in one-on-one, but we can make standard laser builds that are competitive against C-MPL builds. The standard IS pulse stand on their own and don't really have any Clan equivalent.

[Ultimax]

Yokaiko, on 27 May 2015 - 08:25 PM, said:

Good at posting damage numbers, anyone that can roll really chops into the effectivenes

You understand that competitive teams use CERLLAS when it makes sense for the drop don't you?

Feel free to watch some of the MWOLN matches, you'll see CERLLAS brought when the map/situation calls for it, and you will see them be very effective.

[1453 R]

How'd we get here from arguments over Stormcrow agility, again? o_O

Not really complaining, it's been an interesting discussion, just all a'sudden noticed that we're totes not even caring about Stormcrows anymore. Heh, maybe it's time for a new cERLL thread? This is a good talk, we should get people in on it.

[Khobai]

Quote

It's a difference that's both too small and the wrong way. Clan has extra damage and can make up a range deficit with it, IS cannot. Apples to apples, the IS should have a range advantage to compensate for the damage advantage on the Clan laser. That is how any other game would do it.

The higher damage is offset by the longer beam duration. But nothing offsets the longer range. Thats the whole problem. The absurd range advantage of clan energy is what got us into this whole quirk mess...

Clan lasers need a range nerf. Then IS quirks dont have to be as good.

Additionally clan ultra autocannons need buffs. the number of bursts and/or volley delays need to be reduced. Both IS and clan LBX also need buffs. Spread needs to be decreased significantly on LB20X. And damage per pellet needs to be increased on all LBXs by at least 10%.

Edited by Khobai, 27 May 2015 - 11:48 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Khobai, on 27 May 2015 - 11:40 PM, said:

The higher damage is offset by the longer beam duration. But nothing offsets the longer range. Thats the whole problem. The absurd range advantage of clan energy is what got us into this whole quirk mess...

There's nothing to offset the longer range because the original content wasn't created with an even balance in mind. With what you just said, it seems that you are trying to operate within that broken system as inherited and described implicitly or explicitly by PGI.

Beam duration controls impulse damage. Impulse damage is a function of total damage and duration. Notice how range is not in that particular equation at all. What range does do, however, is cause total damage to fall off at a certain rate beyond a certain point. If you take one laser with higher damage and shorter range and another laser with lower damage and longer range, there is a point in the middle where they deal the same damage over their full burns.

So what offsets range? It's damage. Sure, if you are at that intersection point the longer duration, higher damage laser will have lower impulse damage than the shorter duration one, but it is operating outside of its optimum boundaries and that's the price it pays for still being able to deal a competitive amount of damage despite being out of range.

A C-ERLL with 740 m range will be dealing 9 damage at 875 meters. The only way to offset that is to let the IS ERLL deal its 9 damage at a longer range than 740 meters, say, 810. We can't completely disregard that disparity in impulse damage, which is why I wouldn't suggest we let the IS ERLL shoot to 875. When both lasers are under their max optimum range, though, it becomes an even trade. If they both pull off of the target at the IS ERLL's duration, they both do the same damage. If the IS 'Mech is out in the open, the Clan 'Mech has the option to stay exposed for the full duration and deal more damage.

It's like the internal ballistics balance. Why do you think the AC/5 has a longer range than the AC/20? It's not lore, it's a trade-off, even in TT. At 472 meters, an AC/20 does the same damage as an AC/5. It uses its damage to offset the range disparity to some extent that gives it the same utility at 472 meters as the AC/5. That sort of trade-off has to exist between Clan and IS gear, even comparing like-to-like IS-ER lasers versus C-ER lasers, and currently it does not despite IS gear being bigger and weighing more with greater restrictions than Clan gear despite appearances.

That is the problem.

Quote

Clan lasers need a range nerf. Then IS quirks dont have to be as good.

Clan lasers are ER lasers. They can't be nerfed any more than they already are without being ridiculous. IS ER lasers need to be released, and they have to have slightly longer range for the reasons described above. And yes, then the quirks won't have to be as good, or even present at all.

Quote

Additionally clan ultra autocannons need buffs. the number of bursts and/or volley delays need to be reduced. Both IS and clan LBX also need buffs. Spread needs to be decreased significantly on LB20X. And damage per pellet needs to be increased on all LBXs by at least 10%.

Auto-cannons certainly do need help, but I'd rather save that discussion for elsewhere. We got on lasers because the Storm Crow has amazing agility combined with amazing lasers, because it got those lasers nerfed, and those lasers got nerfs because Clan lasers are out of line.

[Capsta]

A SC agility debuff might make sense, when we get additional clan mechs to choose from.
As it is right now, our selection of viable mechs and the variation available to us clanners is slim.
Lets see how Wave III does as far as providing some deck variation and then consider this?

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Yeonne Greene, on 27 May 2015 - 08:39 PM, said:

Apples to apples, the IS should have a range advantage to compensate for the damage advantage on the Clan laser. That is how any other game would do it.

I would be ok with this, though future tech is gonna throw some wrenches in balance, specifically Heavy Lasers since they are two IS standard lasers for the tonnage of one traditionally (meaning they will be heavily adjusted from their TT values if ever added).

Edited by WM Quicksilver, 28 May 2015 - 11:01 AM.

[Mcgral18]

Capsta, on 28 May 2015 - 10:25 AM, said:

A SC agility debuff might make sense, when we get additional clan mechs to choose from.
As it is right now, our selection of viable mechs and the variation available to us clanners is slim.
Lets see how Wave III does as far as providing some deck variation and then consider this?

Would you prefer untouched lasers and vanilla agility, or nerfed lasers and buffed agility?

Edited by Mcgral18, 28 May 2015 - 11:10 AM.