945 replies to this topic

[Docta Pain]

why no feedback on our feedback, pgi?

[Redshirt enraged]

Well,i guess these changes will be a advantage for some sneaky egoists.

No "low signal" until they are in a range of 90m...

[cybex]

90 Meters ECM reduction its good for me. Looks like a more realistic approach.

[Docta Pain]

so... no ecm change?

[Gorgo7]

Ecm dynamic.
Need or Die.

Check NBT.

[Livewyr]

Docta Pain, on 01 September 2015 - 01:03 PM, said:

why no feedback on our feedback, pgi?

SOP.

[MechaBattler]

Ulfgar Snorrison, on 30 August 2015 - 07:52 AM, said:

Forty-four pages and counting. Wow. Looks like we care. And for all that Mr. Paul said about the this and that of the ECM, any actual change is still in the realm of sometime, someday, 'we have a plan'....Dear PGI, more and more of your playerbase is nearing our retirement ages. Once on fixed incomes we won't have as much money for games like yours. I just saying you might want to hurry things along a bit.

They're probably wanting to test the ECM change alongside whatever sensor change they're making with the big re-balance.

[Siej]

Okay, I've only read a few pages of this and a lot of it is the same. My apologies if I cover something that has already been said, but there are 44 pages of this and I just want to put in my 2 cents.

Right now, ECM is a combination of equipment from the original game with some other aspects added in. Right now, all mechs are treated as having C3 masters (someone can correct me on my terminology, it's been a while for me) with the whole target information sharing.

A simple solution would be to just break up all these functions into their component parts. ECM can be broken down to the two separate systems they are, with another to cover the rest of the magic berry that it currently is. Put in the C3 computers for target sharing as a separate piece of equipment. All of this would be equipment stuff, we don't have to make it huge tonnage, and people can get the parts they want without so much stuff all being in one place. This contributes to role warefare, making scouts and lights more effective, and a team can coordinate to make LRMs more effective for them and the other team can coordinate to counter it, and all of it is just part of the head game before the match even starts. Stealthy mechs remain stealthy, jamming and countering, every benefit has a counter. Seems like the way to go with that as a general rule.

It allows groups to focus on certain tactics to contribute to their overall strategy. Just a thought, perhaps not incredibly well thought through, but seems to me that a system was already put together for all of this and currently they were just oddly rewritten for ease and convenience. Pardon my incoherent meandering... it's that kind of day.

[Fabian Wrede]

You can balance ECm any way you like it's still Owerpowerd as Hell,In Solo pugs team with ecm Will win 99%. PGI you destroyed a potentially good gamewhen you introduesed ECM

[ExAstris]

The range at which ECM can protect allies is not what makes it so powerful, its the range at which it affects enemies.

No, I don't mean its useless effects inside 180m of blocking information relay and making your HUD fuzzy. I mean its actually devastating effects: not showing up on any of your opponents' radars for 600-900m closer than other opponents, completely shutting down LRMs without any need for awareness or skill, and utterly passively giving your team a landslide advantage in position information.

The range at which you can detect enemies, and the range at which they can be detected are crucial pieces of information warfare.

I suggest taking a look at World of Tanks in this regard. Each individual machine has its own natural detection range and modifiers for how far away it can be spotted. It is an integral and unavoidable part of balancing varied machines. Further, those values are constantly being tweaked. Why? Because even a 5-10% change in detection range is a huge deal. Yet in MWO a nearly arbitrary set of units have been given an 80% reduction in the range at which they can be detected.



TL;DR: The overhaul to information warfare in MWO will have to do something a hell of a lot more drastic than reduce size of the bubble in which ECM's effects take place. It has to address the core elements of ECM that make it so absurdly good in the first place: Its drastic manipulation of detection ranges (which imparts a huge asymmetry in the flow of information) and its total nullification of lock-on weapons.

Edited by ExAstris, 06 September 2015 - 02:42 PM.

[Drunken Skull]

There was a period back in the early beta days of MWO when for some unbe-gods-known reason the dev's decided to "Battlefield Two-ify" everything. IIRC ECM was the flagship of this movement to make MWO a "BF2 clone with mechs". Along with that change was the change of Heat vision going from an EYE-Friendly futuristic predator-vision, to a sterile circa-1986 white-hot FLIR camera view with a drastically limited range. I think this needs to be undone; get rid of ECM and while your'e at it give us back the old thermal vision system.

MWO was never meant to be a Battlefield 2 with Mechs, so could it please be altered to remove these battlefield-twoifications. I think the dual hit of the Loss of our vision system AND ECM is a little too much to bear!!! I mean not only do we get our heat vision gimped so we're blind, but we get ECM on top of that so that our radar is blind too!

Also, ECM is part of the BATTLETECH META, designed to hamper the Commander; who is in control of everything. There is no Commander to Coordinate the entire battlefield in MWO, with the exception of 8 - 12 man teams that practice coordination and communication. For solo(PUG) drops things are already uncoordinated, people aren't sure what each other are going to do and usually come up with something add-hock on the fly, or just flock and follow, it's as if the group is being affected with ECM in the first place (not having a command structure and lacking coordination). So I postulate that it is redundant for the solo queue, but by all means if ECM is a must then it should only be allowed for use in 8 - 12 man groups, where it makes sense to use such a device.

Edited by Drunken Skull, 05 September 2015 - 05:39 PM.

[Livaria]

I can only hope that players will be satisfied with these ECM changes. If not, then it may take a whole new different step.

I could be late to post this, but I do have a rework that personally makes the most sense to me. Instead of ECM blocking enemy sensors, it reduces the sensor range that 'mechs can be detected while under the effects of ECM. Enemy 'mechs must move in closer for their sensors to detect their enemy.

Here is my example:

- ECM affected mechs must be detected within 45% of an opposing mechs maximum sensor range.

- A 'mech without ECM cover can be detected at 800 meters.

- A 'mech with ECM cover must be detected at 360 meters.

- A 'mech with BAP or sensor module (1000 Sensor range) can detect ECM affected 'mechs at 450 meters.

- A 'mech with BAP and sensor module (1200 Sensor range) can detect ECM affected 'mechs at 540 meters.

Edited by Livaria, 06 September 2015 - 03:00 PM.

[MagnumLovin]

I tried to run a missile boat the other day and couldn't hit anything. I fixed it though, by making it a brawler. It's a bad day, indeed. I love to run some missiles. Let's get them back, but the right way.

What is the cause of this? It is ECM, but only in part. The Clan Mechs introduced these items by the gaggle by being able to swap out a 'pod and putting one in with ease, so there's a ton of them now. Limiting their range though is not a bonus, for that one time that DDC or Spider is the sole ECM for your team. If the range is nerfed (closer), then there will be EVEN MORE ECM than there is now, but the fact that they overlap is not that bad. It's in combination with the other stuff that makes it awful. Nerfing the range will make it horrid. It's how you know they're around, trying to hide out. Good luck trying to find that ECM sniper at nerfed range...for them it's the only bonus.

I think that fixing the ECM range is not the best course of action. If TAG was like it was in the BETA, where it could reach across the map (1000+, or an ER LLaser or so), then we'd be talking....the caveat today would be that it will only be active if the mech tagging has the range to see the tag popup (adv. sensor range and BAP, perhaps). Increased range and duration for UAV's, and no lock delay with UAV on ECM bubbled mechs (it's acting as a TAG for visual lock, not TAG bonuses), and range and duration for NARC beacons would go a long way. BAP should automatically counter all enemy ECM in range, not one BAP per ECM'd enemy mech (had that happen a few times when I was loaded down with streaks. It was so irritating that I got rid of streaks and have yet to put them back on, so I'm not sure if that has ever been a problem for others).

But instead of reducing the range of the ECM, have the other agonizing bane of missile boaters be ineffective. Radar Deprivation becomes inactive under the bubble. And it will stop the doubling down on Radar Dep. and ECM. Or get rid of Radar Deprivation outright. As a matter of fact, the combo of the two has broken the LRM system. It has made it very similar to the way things were before TAG could target ECM'd mechs from outside the bubble, and it is Over Powered, since mech build sites put it down as a MUST HAVE module, but only because it's "not" overpowered, right? So why is TAG still only good to 750m, again?

One more thought came to mind and is probably the easier fix. What if team ECM in Disrupt caused team ECM, also in Disrupt, to short out and falter after a time? They can overload and shut down ECM if more than one is on and they'll have to bump out of the bubble a bit. This would change team tactics and how teams form up, and most likely, cause many people to turn ECM to Counter or risk shutting down the bubble for each ECM carrying mech (until they're back outside), or simply not bring it. Make overloaded ECM take damage or slam off for a duration--no effect until leaving the bubble for a time, in either disrupt or counter. This would also make pilots more attuned to what their ECM is doing and still keep the snipers going, as well as roving light mayhem units.

No range nerf is needed. There are other options. Radar Deprivation is probably the worst in combination with it all. If that module stays, and ECM range reduced, nothing will have been fixed. It's a combo problem and it's been building up a while.

[Gorgo7]

The true fix would be to force Clan to fight Clan and IS to fight IS in Pug matches.

[Jiang Wei]

Tennex, on 15 July 2015 - 02:47 PM, said:

Heres a suggestion to information warfare/fixing ECM
Give all mechs Seismic Sensor by default as a "Radar"

Almost all mechs equip the module seismic sensor. It has become the de facto Radar of Mechwarrior Online. (don't freak out. Think of this change as just Seismic Sensor with more integration into Role Warfare)
Summary of what changing seismic sensor to Radar will do for the game :

• Active/Passive Radar
  
• True to lore implementation of ECM. That doesn't break all missiles
  
• Visual/Missile Targeting is the ONLY mechanic of Information Warfare right now. This change will fix that
  
• True to lore implementation of whatever the hell radar tech you can think of
  
• Null Sig

And here is the how:





By actually having a Radar mechanic you are are able to implement features that are true to lore.
Meanwhile the Radar(seismic sensor) portion of the game is still kept separate from the Missile Lock/Visual Lock portion of the game. What this mean is:

#1 Just because you see mechs on your Radar(seismic sensor) doesn't mean you can lob LRMs at them. Just because you see them on Radar, doesn't mean you can have damage information on them. (A problem the developers sought to get rid of from the old game.)

#2 Lore ECM: Having a separate Radar and Missile targeting system means that ECM can have the Radar jamming portion of its function (invisible from Radar, jams enemy's Radar), without the missile targeting interference. I.E true to lore and does not break an entire 1/3 of the weapons.


#3 You can tune/adjust a mech's Radar capability without hindering its Missile/Visual Targeting ability. I.E if you lower the Missile Targeting range from 1000 you can no longer effectively use LRMS. Whereas if you lower the Radar radius there is no effect on viability of Missile weapons. Worried that giving light mechs 2x Visual/Missile Lock will wreck the game? Worry no more, giving light mechs 2x Radar range is fine and encouraged!

#4 Passive/Active Radar! Turn off your own Radar(Seismic Sensor), and other mechs will not see you on their Radar. This means mechs will still be able to sneak around, and have that stealth gameplay.



Heck, devs can add Null Sig if they wanted to if it no longer has functionality overlap with ECM. Miss your Sniper Raven? Slap that Null Sig onto a Rave, turn on Passive Radar and it works just like ECM does now without the broken umbrella.

Why not make it even simpler and just make radar 360 degrees..... Radar doesnt make any sense the way it is now anyway.

Btw, Paul in case it wasnt already asked, you didnt say how this ECM change would affect detection range by normal radar, unless its isnt... This ECM change is long overdue. When did you realize it was needed? You really should make the ecm bubble zero meters.

Edited by Jiang Wei, 08 September 2015 - 06:59 AM.

[Maelstrum]

I might be an exception, but I got a Hellbringer not for myself but to accompany my Unit and cover them allowing us to flank instead of team ganking round after round after round.

We are not walking that far from one another and reaching 180m happens a lot when we pincer a target around an obstacle. It especially is difficult trying to cover our slowest and fastest mechs at once. We usually end up leaving the assaults behind to catch up and they end up receiving a ton of missiles before even encountering a single mech.

We still get pummeled and we still get raining missiles on our torsos as soon as I get PPCed, TAGed, UAVed, BAPed or Countered. The ECM mostly allows us to creep in behind the enemy lines and do the most damage we can before the entire team realises what is happening and turns around to focus fire.

I don't mind a nerf per se, but I think the aftermath of a simple range nerf will be decrease the mech variety by requiring more ECM equipped mechs on the battlefield to be efficient (return of the D-DC Lyran Scout Lance) and it will force teams to gather even closer together, increasing the occurances of team mobbing. This would be the opposite of what I wish for in MWO.

But I really can't say if the nerf is a bad or good thing until I know more about the quirks PGI intends to add to support roled mechs. I'd prefer a LoS solution but primarily, I want a way for my unit to run around the back or flank the enemy lines without already suffering 20-30% damage. Maybe have a LoS solution that requires a constant LoS of 3-4 seconds before blipping on the radar and another 3-4 seconds for locks. 3-4 seconds, the enemy registers your position, 6-8 seconds, hellfire rains down on your unit... seems fair.

A note on the BAP, I would definitively increase its usefulness. Or simply allow 2, 3 or even 4 BAPs to be equipped on a single mech. Not to stack the bonuses but to counter more ECMs. That could considerably reduce the effectiveness of a flock of ECM equipped lights.

Edited by Mlstrum, 09 September 2015 - 06:51 AM.

[Gattsus]

Just delete seismic from the game. Wallhacks do not promote skill/strategic gameplay.

[Bespoke Cheese Cake]

Just throwing in my 2 cents:
The change to the ECM was really good, lrms are back in business and so is ams. I don't think anymore nerfs need to be applied to it though. Any more nerfs and it will not be worth the tonnage, we already have so many ways to counter it. I see few people who want it to be more like the lore. I take issue with that, the lore while interesting is also filled with a load of utter garbage which doesn't make any sense in a game like MWO.

[Jaeger Gonzo]

That is a buffm not nerf. lolo

[jlawsl]

If you think about it, ECM should be reversed to the way it is, as the protection is concerned. Make the bubble bigger, sure, but make its abilities INCREASE as you get closer. Its a friggin jammer, think about it, it works in reverse of everything in the known universe. Its like getting a strong signal from a cell phone tower that is 10 miles away, compared to none that you are standing right next to. Jammers should weaker, the further you get from the source, not stonger. If it were in a car, it would be worthless if it were a radar jammer against police(however illegal it might be in certain parts)-You can jam a police radar from 1k away, but as soon as you are within 300m, your signal is too weak. The bubble should be about where it is, but jam signals the closer you are to the mech, not the further you are. As well, a visual lock should always trump a radar lock-I should be able to lock onto you if I can see you, that or tag should have a toggle for on and off just like ams.