122 replies to this topic

[Poisoner]

Can we get rid of linking torso twist speed to engine size?

[Mcgral18]

Yeah, that'd be nice.

[Alistair Winter]

Those poor Stormcrows though

[DjPush]

What rebalance? When?

[1453 R]

I'm honestly a little curious how many people are really prepared for that sort of change.

Remove the engine's ability to affect the performance of the 'Mech and you lose much of the purpose anyone has to run anything bigger than a 250 in their whatever-they-drive. I get that TT engines didn't affect anything except footspeed, but then again footspeed actually mattered in TT. I remember a time when 65 klicks was considered perfectly acceptable for anything in the game to hit, and assaults were excused for going sub-fifty. Every single possible spare ounce was devoted to bringing as absolutely stupidiculously large an arsenal as one could fit on a 'Mech - and also one jump jet.

It sucked. It sucked tremendously hard, and whatever else people say about the current energy-centric meta, at least it moves around the battlefield.

But if you take away an engine's ability to allow a 'Mech to maneuver better, are we going to end up falling back to putting 250s in everything and just flat-out ignoring mobility as an advantage? I can see pros and cons to the situation, but certain 'Mechs in this game were built, even in TT, as high-mobility platforms designed for raiding or skirmishing. Telling a Summoner it now gets to have the same torso agility as a Dire Whale seems...harsh. I mean, people have a hard enough time justifying Summoners in their drops as it is before we tell everyone we're going to the TT system of a universal 45-degree twist and identical twist speeds across all weight classes.

I'unno...maybe it's just me, but I'd be pretty bothered by that notion.

EDIT:: Also! You think Whales are bad now, when everything else in the game can outmaneuver them with ludicrous ease? How horrific do you think they're going to be when every other 'Mech in the game is restricted to the same torso twist arcs/speed as the Whale itself, and nobody can turn faster than it can, either?

Edited by 1453 R, 31 July 2015 - 03:56 PM.

[TercieI]

I'm just terrified of the idea of introducing more variables to change at one time.

[Gas Guzzler]

Why do so many people want this?

I like the added agility from larger engines..

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 31 July 2015 - 03:55 PM.

[1453 R]

Gas Guzzler, on 31 July 2015 - 03:54 PM, said:

Why do so many people want this?

I like the added agility from larger engines..

It's all the Whale drivers, Guzzler. They're conspiring against us decent folk.

...

[Mcgral18]

Gas Guzzler, on 31 July 2015 - 03:54 PM, said:

Why do so many people want this?

I like the added agility from larger engines..

I too LOVE the agility the 400 gives the banshee, how it has no difficulty whatsoever to track any mech (unless it's standing on a hill...)


But something like this could make the Timberwolf have a lower twist speed than A) every Med in the game (without 25%-40% quirks), and B competing Heavies like the Orion or Black Knight.

Edited by Mcgral18, 31 July 2015 - 07:40 PM.

[1453 R]

Mcgral18, on 31 July 2015 - 03:58 PM, said:

I too LOVE the agility the 400 gives the banshee, how it has no difficulty whatsoever to track any mech (unless it's standing on a hill...)


But something like this could make the Timberwolf have a lower twist speed than A) every Med in the game (without 25%-40% quirks), and competing Heavies like the Orion or Black Knight.

How so?

The argument seems to be for removing any non-quirk, non-efficiency modifier on agility, torso or leg. Engine weight affects absolutely nothing except footspeed. All 'Mechs get to work off of a single, universal twist/turn/accel/decel speed which quirks or efficiencies modify - a Locust would accelerate, decelerate, turn, twist, and otherwise maneuver in exactly the same manner as a Dire Whale, outside of its existing agility quirks. It would move significantly faster in a straight line, but that is absolutely and entirely it.

I'm not sure why people think this would be such a fantastic idea, or why mediums would be able to outmaneuver the Timber Wolf is we eliminate any/all non-quirk agility modifiers from the game.

Edited by 1453 R, 31 July 2015 - 04:08 PM.

[Andi Nagasia]

Paul and Russ seem Confident in their Balance System,
PGI seems to be Going Strong, so im willing to wait and see,

[Mcgral18]

1453 R, on 31 July 2015 - 04:07 PM, said:

How so?

The argument seems to be for removing any non-quirk, non-efficiency modifier on agility, torso or leg. Engine weight affects absolutely nothing except footspeed. All 'Mechs get to work off of a single, universal twist/turn/accel/decel speed which quirks or efficiencies modify - a Locust would accelerate, decelerate, turn, twist, and otherwise maneuver in exactly the same manner as a Dire Whale, outside of its existing agility quirks. It would move significantly faster in a straight line, but that is absolutely and entirely it.

I'm not sure why people think this would be such a fantastic idea, or why mediums would be able to outmaneuver the Timber Wolf is we eliminate any/all non-quirk agility modifiers from the game.

The **** are you getting that from? LOLcust same as a Whale? Not a single thing resembling that was even mentioned.


Each mech (perhaps even variant) gets a given twist speed (and other agility), and that's it.

Edited by Mcgral18, 31 July 2015 - 04:43 PM.

[One Medic Army]

Twist speed? Yes

But leave the effects to turn speed.

Probably every mech should have twist range and speed just specified by variant/chasis.

Edited by One Medic Army, 31 July 2015 - 04:27 PM.

[1453 R]

Mcgral18, on 31 July 2015 - 04:26 PM, said:

The **** are you getting that from? LOLcust same as a Whale? Not a single thing resembling that was even mentioned.


Each mech (perhaps even variant) get's a given twist speed, and that's it.

Ahh, good. I've been waiting for something like this.

Let's do something of a case study, shall we? Let us compare two 'Mechs:

This one, the Centurion we all know and Bishop loves

-and-

This one, the Blitzkrieg we will never see

Both of these are 50-ton Inner Sphere BattleMechs - same tech base, same weight. According to each and every single proposed system I've ever seen for eliminating engine rating as a variable in 'Mech maneuverability, the fact that the Centurion and the Bitzkrieg are both 50-ton Inner Sphere 'Mechs means they have identical performance profiles.

They have the same twist speed and the same twist arcs. They have the same accel/decel. They have the same turnspeed. The sole, singular difference in their movement profiles is that the BLitzkrieg would be able to move at nearly twice the speed of the Centurion - in a straight line, across flat ground. Any/all other differences between their movement capabilities is eliminated.

One of these 'Mechs is a sturdy, low-cost trooper 'Mech, designed as a rugged, cheap and reliable workhorse and an escort to larger, more valuable units. One of these 'Mechs was purpose-built from the first napkin drawing as a high-speed, high-mobility strike-and-fade raider. And yet, in any proposed system of agility normalization, the two 'Mechs would have entirely identical movement profiles save for raw footspeed, and maybe quirks if one or the other is lucky.

This. Is. Horse P!ss

IN WHAT WORLD does it make sense for a Blitzkrieg to be no more agile than a Centurion?! HOW can anyone look themselves in the eye and say to themselves "there's absolutely no cause or justification for a purpose-built high-speed raider with twice the engine capacity of the low-tech trooper to have any advantages in mobility or agility over the trooper."

If that's the way the game should be played according to TT, then so far as I'm concerned?

For Balance, Corerule Ignore.

[OznerpaG]

everything related to engine besides pure speed should not have anything to do with the engine anymore. for example torso twist is powered by an electric current to run the servos, what does engine size have to do with the servo getting the X amount of electricity it needs to turn?

hard-code those attributes in regardless of engine size, and use them to buff/nerf mechs with/instead of the current quirks

[Mcgral18]

1453 R, on 31 July 2015 - 04:38 PM, said:

Ahh, good. I've been waiting for something like this.

Let's do something of a case study, shall we? Let us compare two 'Mechs:

This one, the Centurion we all know and Bishop loves

-and-

This one, the Blitzkrieg we will never see

Both of these are 50-ton Inner Sphere BattleMechs - same tech base, same weight. According to each and every single proposed system I've ever seen for eliminating engine rating as a variable in 'Mech maneuverability, the fact that the Centurion and the Bitzkrieg are both 50-ton Inner Sphere 'Mechs means they have identical performance profiles.

They have the same twist speed and the same twist arcs. They have the same accel/decel. They have the same turnspeed. The sole, singular difference in their movement profiles is that the BLitzkrieg would be able to move at nearly twice the speed of the Centurion - in a straight line, across flat ground. Any/all other differences between their movement capabilities is eliminated.

One of these 'Mechs is a sturdy, low-cost trooper 'Mech, designed as a rugged, cheap and reliable workhorse and an escort to larger, more valuable units. One of these 'Mechs was purpose-built from the first napkin drawing as a high-speed, high-mobility strike-and-fade raider. And yet, in any proposed system of agility normalization, the two 'Mechs would have entirely identical movement profiles save for raw footspeed, and maybe quirks if one or the other is lucky.

This. Is. Horse P!ss

IN WHAT WORLD does it make sense for a Blitzkrieg to be no more agile than a Centurion?! HOW can anyone look themselves in the eye and say to themselves "there's absolutely no cause or justification for a purpose-built high-speed raider with twice the engine capacity of the low-tech trooper to have any advantages in mobility or agility over the trooper."

If that's the way the game should be played according to TT, then so far as I'm concerned?

For Balance, Corerule Ignore.

In your imagination ALONE.


Where did it say two 50 tonners have the same agility? Only your post. Your post alone.



Please, stop being a fucktard.

[Andi Nagasia]

Each Mech Could Be balanced to one another,

by Changing Certain Variables such as,
1) Acceleration Deceleration(Mobility Buffs),
2) Reverse Speed(a % of Mechs Max Speed),
3) Turn Rate(how fast a Mech can Turn at Various Speeds),
4) Vertical Angle(How Far a Mech can Twist to look Up-Down),
5) Twist Angle(How Far a Mech can Twist to look Left-Right),
6) Twist Speed(how fast a Mech can Twist to look around),

Even Mech Variables such as,
1) a Mechs Sensor Range(Range where a Mech can Detect another),
2) a Mechs Heat Scale(some mechs having a higher Heat threshold),

Even Tech Variables such as,
1) BattleMech Engine Ratings(such as 120-340 or 150-300),
2) OmniMech Set Bonuses(Ex. FullSet= +10%Speed),

Just to name what could be used for balance,
Edit- separations,

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 31 July 2015 - 04:48 PM.

[1453 R]

JagdFlanker, on 31 July 2015 - 04:41 PM, said:

everything related to engine besides pure speed should not have anything to do with the engine anymore. for example torso twist is powered by an electric current to run the servos, what does engine size have to do with the servo getting the X amount of electricity it needs to turn?

hard-code those attributes in regardless of engine size, and use them to buff/nerf mechs with/instead of the current quirks

BattleTechnology lesson: 'engine size', in BattleTech, refers to how much power the reactor can output. This power is in the form of electricity - the reactor doesn't output magical reactor juice that runs the 'Mech's legs and the legs alone. It is a fridge-sized dynamo system, as I recall, stored inside the 'Mech.

So a larger engine would provide more total power, more wattage, which in turn allows more wattage to be supplied to the servos which actuate the 'Mech's movements, enabling those servos to work harder and actuate the 'Mech more quickly.

What did you think the engine was - a V100 connected to a bunch of crankshafts?

Mcgral18, on 31 July 2015 - 04:44 PM, said:

In your imagination ALONE.


Where did it say two 50 tonners have the same agility? Only your post. Your post alone.



Please, stop being a fucktard.

Is that not the intent? Sure, this OP didn't say anything other than 'Make larger engines stop offering benefit to their users', but I've read a great many older threads which outlined more or less exactly what I mentioned. Besides - are you disagreeing? Are you stating that a Blitzkrieg should, in fact, be more agile than a Centurion? If so, why would that be? What is it about the Blitz that gives it that inherently greater mobility than the Centurion?

Hmm...I wonder if it might be the freaking gigantic engine they stuffed in the thing? Huh...I wonder how we might simulate the fact that installing a vastly larger engine in the same tonnage of chassis would impart greater mobility to the machine in question...

[Mcgral18]

1453 R, on 31 July 2015 - 04:49 PM, said:

Is that not the intent? Sure, this OP didn't say anything other than 'Make larger engines stop offering benefit to their users', but I've read a great many older threads which outlined more or less exactly what I mentioned. Besides - are you disagreeing? Are you stating that a Blitzkrieg should, in fact, be more agile than a Centurion? If so, why would that be? What is it about the Blitz that gives it that inherently greater mobility than the Centurion?

Hmm...I wonder if it might be the freaking gigantic engine they stuffed in the thing? Huh...I wonder how we might simulate the fact that installing a vastly larger engine in the same tonnage of chassis would impart greater mobility to the machine in question...

EXACTLY, a chassis to chassis basis, not weight class.



YOU ARE THE ONLY ONE saying ALL 50 tonners have the same agility. While the Blitzkrieg could have better agility, the Cent would have better armour quirks.

Edited by Mcgral18, 31 July 2015 - 04:55 PM.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

1453 R, on 31 July 2015 - 03:51 PM, said:

I'm honestly a little curious how many people are really prepared for that sort of change.

Spoiler

Remove the engine's ability to affect the performance of the 'Mech and you lose much of the purpose anyone has to run anything bigger than a 250 in their whatever-they-drive. I get that TT engines didn't affect anything except footspeed, but then again footspeed actually mattered in TT. I remember a time when 65 klicks was considered perfectly acceptable for anything in the game to hit, and assaults were excused for going sub-fifty. Every single possible spare ounce was devoted to bringing as absolutely stupidiculously large an arsenal as one could fit on a 'Mech - and also one jump jet.

It sucked. It sucked tremendously hard, and whatever else people say about the current energy-centric meta, at least it moves around the battlefield.

But if you take away an engine's ability to allow a 'Mech to maneuver better, are we going to end up falling back to putting 250s in everything and just flat-out ignoring mobility as an advantage? I can see pros and cons to the situation, but certain 'Mechs in this game were built, even in TT, as high-mobility platforms designed for raiding or skirmishing. Telling a Summoner it now gets to have the same torso agility as a Dire Whale seems...harsh. I mean, people have a hard enough time justifying Summoners in their drops as it is before we tell everyone we're going to the TT system of a universal 45-degree twist and identical twist speeds across all weight classes.

I'unno...maybe it's just me, but I'd be pretty bothered by that notion.

EDIT:: Also! You think Whales are bad now, when everything else in the game can outmaneuver them with ludicrous ease? How horrific do you think they're going to be when every other 'Mech in the game is restricted to the same torso twist arcs/speed as the Whale itself, and nobody can turn faster than it can, either?

The point is that you have the Dire be at 34°/s (it's current value for Twist Speed with a 300) period or even see that reduced as needed.

Then the Atlas can be say at 40°/s (the value of having a 350 engine) regardless of what engine you stick in there.

It could actually be a buff in some cases were the mech can have a faster twist speed with a lower rated engine.