241 replies to this topic

[Dimento Graven]

Mystere, on 13 August 2015 - 11:33 AM, said:

Here's the rub. No two people are ever literally equal. That is the reason why people and equipment are rotated during tests to remove that uncertainty from the equation.

So who's willing to setting up a 100-1000 round test in the name of science?

OFFS, again, with the spurious.

You're acting the typical clanner, too afraid to acknowledge the least little bit that if a 'mech has more speed, more fire power, more range, and more survivability then PROBABLY it's going to make a MAJOR difference in ANY encounter between two pilots of EQUAL or SIMILAR skill.

And why are you guys afraid to admit that? Because as soon as you do, you acknowledge that the clan 'mechs have been the 'easy mode' option all along, and something needs to change to provide ACTUAL balance to between IS and Clan.

[Catra Lanis]

Adiuvo, on 13 August 2015 - 11:33 AM, said:

Lights overall are weaker than the other classes, even when comparing the best out of them.

Lights are amazing against poor to average players. Against people who can aim well they really aren't though.

They are enough. You might have a case if hitreg was 100% and all players had below 100 ping. As it stands now the best lights are overpowered because they can waltz in among 4 enemies throwing everything they have at it and waltz out with yellow armor. Any competent pilot can easily kill an assault more often than not in the top 4 lights even if the assault pilot can aim.

[Mystere]

Dimento Graven, on 13 August 2015 - 11:38 AM, said:

OFFS, again, with the spurious.

You're acting the typical clanner, too afraid to acknowledge the least little bit that if a 'mech has more speed, more fire power, more range, and more survivability then PROBABLY it's going to make a MAJOR difference in ANY encounter between two pilots of EQUAL or SIMILAR skill.

And why are you guys afraid to admit that? Because as soon as you do, you acknowledge that the clan 'mechs have been the 'easy mode' option all along, and something needs to change to provide ACTUAL balance to between IS and Clan.

How many Mechs have been written off as DOA (or alternatively, declared extremely OP above anything and everything else) because of how they looked on paper even before people got their hands on it, only to find out they were wrong?

I'm sorry but science by spreadsheets (aka. spreadsheet warriors) -- especially when it comes to highly dynamic systems -- just does not cut it for me, not even close. I'm an experimentation and simulation kind of person. That means (but is not restricted to) videos and telemetry data.

That is what is going to take to convince me -- especially because the differences will, twisting your own words, "PROBABLY make a MINOR difference in ANY encounter between two pilots of EQUAL or SIMILAR skill".

You don't like it? Tough.

Edited by Mystere, 13 August 2015 - 11:57 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Mystere, on 13 August 2015 - 11:54 AM, said:

How many Mechs have been written off as DOA (or alternatively, declared extremely OP above anything and everything else) because of how they looked on paper even before people got their hands on it, only to find out they were wrong?

I'm sorry but science by spreadsheets (aka. spreadsheet warriors) -- especially when it comes to highly dynamic systems -- just does not cut it for me, not even close. I'm an experimentation and simulation kind of person. That means (but is not restricted to) videos and telemetry data.

That is what is going to take to convince me -- especially because the differences will, twisting your own words, "PROBABLY make a MINOR difference in ANY encounter between two pilots of EQUAL or SIMILAR skill".

You don't like it? Tough.

The gap is small enough such that it can not overcome any significant skill deficit, but in an environment where all the skill levels are very high and similar/equal, the gap makes a difference. Taking a heavy with an IS XL is a huge liability, when you can take a Timber or Hellbringer and throw a side to the wolves if you have to without sacrificing mobility or weapons by taking a STD engine.

I'll say it again, in typical play I don't really see much of an issue, 99% of the time the battle will be decided by which team plays better.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 13 August 2015 - 12:01 PM.

[Dimento Graven]

Mystere, on 13 August 2015 - 11:54 AM, said:

How many Mechs have been written off as DOA (or alternatively, declared extremely OP above anything and everything else) because of how they looked on paper even before people got their hands on it, only to find out they were wrong?

I'm sorry but science by spreadsheets (aka. spreadsheet warriors) -- especially when it comes to highly dynamic systems -- just does not cut it for me, not even close. I'm an experimentation and simulation kind of person. That means (but is not restricted to) videos and telemetry data.

But, that is what is going to take to convince me -- especially because the differences will, twisting your own words, "PROBABLY make a MINOR difference in ANY encounter between two pilots of EQUAL or SIMILAR skill".

You don't like it? Tough.

You were the one going all spreadsheet warrior on this. It's a simple fact:

Clan 'mechs can survive an XL side torso loss, IS can't. - Not debatable.
Most Clan 'mechs weapons do maximum damage at longer ranges than the IS equivalent. - Not debatable.
Most Clan 'mech weapons do more damage. - Not debatable.
Most Clan 'mech weapons are lighter than their IS equivalent, with inherit advantages that result. - Not debatable.
Most Clan 'mech weapons are smaller than their IS equivalent, with inherit advantages that result. - Not debatable.
There are more Clan variants available with ECM than IS. - NOT debatable.

You can't say that because IS lasers recycle faster, it some how completely balances the lighter weight, smaller size, and longer range of the Clan lasers, and when you factor in ALL the advantages the clans have, guess what, it almost always all adds up to a significant advantage over a similarly weighted IS 'mech.

And, OH, BY THE WAY, we did have those "thousands of matches" to gather info. It was the Turkayyid event, and AGAIN, the numbers showed the clans were able to kill A LOT more 'mechs doing SIGNIFICANTLY less damage than the IS 'mechs.

It means that if the IS 'mechs had been only hitting AS HARD AS the Clans, the losses would have been even more extreme.

Go and review the numbers yourself, that's what that week of 'experimentation' shows us.

Edited by Dimento Graven, 13 August 2015 - 12:07 PM.

[Mystere]

Gas Guzzler, on 13 August 2015 - 12:01 PM, said:

The gap is small enough such that it can not overcome any significant skill deficit, but in an environment where all the skill levels are very high and similar/equal, the gap makes a difference. Taking a heavy with an IS XL is a huge liability, when you can take a Timber or Hellbringer and throw a side to the wolves if you have to without sacrificing mobility or weapons by taking a STD engine.

The point of contention is just how much of a difference, which by the way you answered yourself:

Gas Guzzler, on 13 August 2015 - 12:01 PM, said:

I'll say it again, in typical play I don't really see much of an issue, 99% of the time the battle will be decided by which team plays better.

And in a team-oriented game, I am just fine with that.

[JohnnyWayne]

Oh my gosh, quick clans got a good mech - CALL FOR NERFS.

[Mystere]

Dimento Graven, on 13 August 2015 - 12:05 PM, said:

You were the one going all spreadsheet warrior on this. It's a simple fact:

Exactly where did I do that?

Dimento Graven, on 13 August 2015 - 12:05 PM, said:

Clan 'mechs can survive an XL side torso loss, IS can't. - Not debatable.
Most Clan 'mechs weapons do maximum damage at longer ranges than the IS equivalent. - Not debatable. - Not debatable.
Most Clan 'mech weapons do more damage.
Most Clan 'mech weapons are lighter than their IS equivalent, with inherit advantages that result. - Not debatable.
Most Clan 'mech weapons are smaller than their IS equivalent, with inherit advantages that result. - Not debatable.
There are more Clan variants available with ECM than IS. - NOT debatable.

You can't say that because IS lasers recycle faster, it some how completely balances the lighter weight, smaller size, and longer range of the Clan lasers, and when you factor in ALL the advantages the clans have, guess what, it almost always all adds up to a significant advantage over a similarly weighted IS 'mech.

And, OH, BY THE WAY, we did have those "thousands of matches" to gather info. It was the Turkayyid event, and AGAIN, the numbers showed the clans were able to kill A LOT more 'mechs doing SIGNIFICANTLY less damage than the IS 'mechs.

It means that if the IS 'mechs had been only hitting AS HARD AS the Clans, the losses would have been even more extreme.

Go and review the numbers yourself, that's what that week of 'experimentation' shows us.

We are talking specifically about the Arctic Cheetah, not the entire Clan ecosystem.

And in case you did not realize it, your bias is now out in the open. and <smh>.

Edited by Mystere, 13 August 2015 - 12:11 PM.

[Adiuvo]

Catra Lanis, on 13 August 2015 - 11:42 AM, said:

They are enough. You might have a case if hitreg was 100% and all players had below 100 ping. As it stands now the best lights are overpowered because they can waltz in among 4 enemies throwing everything they have at it and waltz out with yellow armor. Any competent pilot can easily kill an assault more often than not in the top 4 lights even if the assault pilot can aim.

This really isn't true. Hit registration isn't that bad sub 150ish ping, and can even be fine greater than that if you have a very stable connection.

Lights cannot and never have (minus the days of the actually broken Raven) waltz into 4 competent enemies, facetank, and survive. You cannot do that in competitive play. You cannot do that higher elo solo/group queue. The only times I've seen that work is when I'm on my smurf with new player elo, but in those cases it's because I'm fighting people who are new to the game or who aren't very good. They physically cannot hold their crosshair over me to deal damage.

Assault vs. light matchup is just about always in the assaults favor if it's a 1v1. The exceptions are on open plains vs. a Daishi or something else that moves really slow. Good assault builds always have a gauss rifle, and gauss rifles absolutely destroy lights.

Edited by Adiuvo, 13 August 2015 - 12:17 PM.

[Catra Lanis]

Adiuvo, on 13 August 2015 - 12:16 PM, said:

This really isn't true. Hit registration isn't that bad sub 150ish ping, and can even be fine greater than that if you have a very stable connection.

Lights cannot and never have (minus the days of the actually broken Raven) waltz into 4 competent enemies, facetank, and survive. You cannot do that in competitive play. You cannot do that higher elo solo/group queue. The only times I've seen that work is when I'm on my smurf with new player elo, but in those cases it's because I'm fighting people who are new to the game or who aren't very good. They physically cannot hold their crosshair over me to deal damage.

Assault vs. light matchup is just about always in the assaults favor if it's a 1v1. The exceptions are on open plains vs. a Daishi or something else that moves really slow. Good assault builds always have a gauss rifle, and gauss rifles absolutely destroy lights.

While better than before it is still bad. I do not care about competitive play. It does not count if this game is to survive. I keep ending up with players that may not be top players but I have seen them play enough times that I can assure you that they are not scrubs or newbies. Yes Cheetahs and Firestarters do waltz in and out. If you have to belong to the top 15-20 percentile when it comes to connection and skill in order to enjoy the game, then it is broken and will not succeed with the masses, simple as that.

[Dimento Graven]

Mystere, on 13 August 2015 - 12:10 PM, said:

Exactly where did I do that?

Go reread your own posts.

Quote

We are talking specifically about the Arctic Cheetah, not the entire Clan ecosystem.

And in case you did not realize it, your bias is now out in the open. and &lt;smh&gt;.

Yes, the entire Clan eco system is problematic, the AC exemplifies it gone wild.

How is it bias to state, repeatedly, the undeniable facts of the argument?

Your inability to admit to the far reaching affects of those facts shows your own bias for easy mode...

[Aiden Skye]

Daelen Rottiger, on 13 August 2015 - 01:51 AM, said:

In my opinion PGI should focus on role warfare to give the weight classes and chassis certain roles insted of further buffing this game into an arena shooter...

This x 100!!!!

[Gas Guzzler]

Mystere, on 13 August 2015 - 12:06 PM, said:

The point of contention is just how much of a difference, which by the way you answered yourself:




And in a team-oriented game, I am just fine with that.

I am totally fine with it as well as I have made clear in this thread. I just think its silly when Clan players try to argue that IS mechs are just as good and if you think they are worse you don't know what you are doing.

[Gas Guzzler]

Catra Lanis, on 13 August 2015 - 12:26 PM, said:

While better than before it is still bad. I do not care about competitive play. It does not count if this game is to survive. I keep ending up with players that may not be top players but I have seen them play enough times that I can assure you that they are not scrubs or newbies. Yes Cheetahs and Firestarters do waltz in and out. If you have to belong to the top 15-20 percentile when it comes to connection and skill in order to enjoy the game, then it is broken and will not succeed with the masses, simple as that.

Eh. Lights are only a real issue if there is more than one or one is harassing you while you are dealing with other stuff. That can for sure cause problems. But as we all know, teamwork is OP.

[Sarlic]

Xetelian, on 13 August 2015 - 11:02 AM, said:

IT IS A LIGHT MECH

That is a HUGE drawback. 153 armor stock and that is spread between 1 head 2 arms 2 legs 4 torso 2 center (front and back).
Stock 153
153/11 ~14 armor per part .
Max 210
210/11 ~19 per part

Even a medium can utilize an AC20 or Gauss which can take off arms and shoulders in 1 or 2 shots.

That's no drawback.

They're still little pancakes to hit. Tested it out on their upper body parts.
Remember: one gauss bullet is 15 damage and has the possbility to penetrate.


I think this is a ST hit, but it looked like the head. (No targ info, but clear hit)
Yo, XL, yo.




Rear/Hip hit. (Open rear) Especially the later where i targetted the ACH. Take a look on the paperdoll.
From 31% to 27%. The rest is done by SML from 27% and down and blew arm off. My hit was either hip or rear. Open rear should have caused instant death.

You can see it has the slim profile to their advantage.

Edited by Sarlic, 13 August 2015 - 01:35 PM.

[Logan Frost]

Im already fed up with seeing these little ******** in four packs. Look at those buffs, how the hell does an ECM capable, SML boating thing that fast deserve those? Oh, and jumpjets to boot. Its short, its thin from the side on and pretty lithe from the front and back to boot. Even though its seemingly all legs you'll be hard pressed to do anything more than scratch the things paint due to it jumpjetting and stuttering like crazy.

Anyone who says the AC isnt OP and broken is lying. They just dont want their precious little mech with horrible hitboxes, JJ desyncing worse than the Timberwolf or Firestarter that can hide behind a tree and scream away after taking <400 damage until the serverside says two thirds of it missed to be made into something fair.

News for ya, it'll get nerfed like crazy as soon as its out for Cbills.

Edited by Logan Frost, 13 August 2015 - 01:04 PM.

[Mcgral18]

Logan Frost, on 13 August 2015 - 01:01 PM, said:

Im already fed up with seeing these little ******** in four packs. Look at those buffs, how the hell does an ECM capable, SML boating thing that fast deserve those? Oh, and jumpjets to boot.

Anyone who says the AC isnt OP and broken is lying. They just dont want their precious little mech with horrible hitboxes, JJ desyncing worse than the Timberwolf or Firestarter that can hide behind a tree and scream away after taking <400 damage until the serverside says two thirds of it missed.

Most people agree the quirks could be removed.


Anything on top of that? That seems overkill. They want to kill the only good Clam light.

[Mystere]

Logan Frost, on 13 August 2015 - 01:01 PM, said:

Im already fed up with seeing these little ******** in four packs. Look at those buffs, how the hell does an ECM capable, SML boating thing that fast deserve those? Oh, and jumpjets to boot. Its short, its thin from the side on and pretty lithe from the front and back to boot. Even though its seemingly all legs you'll be hard pressed to do anything more than scratch the things paint due to it jumpjetting and stuttering like crazy.

You would have absolutely loved the light wolfpack days that. alas, will no longer be due to that silly 3/3/3/3.

Logan Frost, on 13 August 2015 - 01:01 PM, said:

Anyone who says the AC isnt OP and broken is lying.

Barring any documented proof, are people supposed to just take the word of those complaining?

Logan Frost, on 13 August 2015 - 01:01 PM, said:

They just dont want their precious little mech with horrible hitboxes, JJ desyncing worse than the Timberwolf or Firestarter that can hide behind a tree and scream away after taking <400 damage until the serverside says two thirds of it missed to be made into something fair.

How do you propose to solve the problems addressed by HSR?

[Logan Frost]

Mcgral18, on 13 August 2015 - 01:03 PM, said:

Most people agree the quirks could be removed.


Anything on top of that? That seems overkill. They want to kill the only good Clam light.

The JJ desync needs to be fixed for everything to be fair, but this little ******** hitboxes are total crap, add that in to their little bunnyhop twitch ability and you have a mech that you cant leg unless everythings firing at it for almost twice as long as any other light mech. ECM means missiles are useless almost entirely, its speed means dumb fire SRM's are going to miss more often than not and you can forget about anything ballistic related unless you see one coming, which seems to be damn near impossible.

Mystere, on 13 August 2015 - 01:10 PM, said:

/snip

Hmmm, you sound like an owner.

Edited by Logan Frost, 13 August 2015 - 01:16 PM.

[Mcgral18]

Logan Frost, on 13 August 2015 - 01:11 PM, said:

The JJ desync needs to be fixed for everything to be fair, but this little ******** hitboxes are total crap, add that in to their little bunnyhop twitch ability and you have a mech that you cant leg unless everythings firing at it for almost twice as long as any other light mech. ECM means missiles are useless almost entirely, its speed means dumb fire SRM's are going to miss more often than not and you can forget about anything ballistic related unless you see one coming, which seems to be damn near impossible.

The speed is slower than most IS Lights. People generally didn't have issues with those. SRMs can tear legs apart, but the spread means you get minimal impact. Travel speed isn't a great issue at the range where SRMs are effective. (sub 50)

Gauss and AC20s are some of the best anti light weapons, dealing massive damage against minimal armour.


Lasers have to contend with moving legs, but are guaranteed damage. Most robots will 3 shot Light legs, or 2 shot if they're good. Assaults can 1 shot Light legs if they're good and the Light is bad (running in a straight line).


The issues you've listed are the same 'issues' the FS9 has had for months. ECM is a non issue for things that aren't Streaks. TAG at range and BAP up close solve that.