241 replies to this topic

[aniviron]

ugrakarma, on 13 August 2015 - 01:28 AM, said:

Great article and I'm glad you put it here as well. I kind of disagree with you on one thing though. I think other lights should be buffed to ACH level instead of nerfing a good chassis.

From a heavy and assault pilot point of view I see them in a good place whereas from the Firestarter cockpit can't even go near them.

I agree that lights need help, but asking seriously here: What would you do to make the other lights as good as the ACH? I mean, I'm honestly not even sure it's possible. Can you suggest me a serious buff to, say, the Kit Fox, that would make it competitive with the Arctic Cheetah? They're the same tonnage and tech base so it should be easy, but honestly I feel like you'd need +50% weapon quirks and massive structure buffs (on the order of 20 or more per component) to make the KFX look attractive as an alternative to the ACH.

Same goes for the Mist Lynx, which also gets clan tech, and is only five tons lighter (and has worse quirks than the ACH for some reason). What would you suggest for the MLX that could possibly make it competitive with the ACH?

And while IS lights are generally superior to clan lights, the Urbanmech, Spider, and Commando are all about as bad as the MLX, with some variants (looking at you SDR-5V) which are considerably worse.

My point is that I don't think it's possible to buff all lights to the same level as the ACH. You'd be looking at Huggin-level quirks or higher on every single light mech in the game, which suggests that there is something deeper going wrong here.

I'm guessing people will change their minds about the ACH once they get bored of seeing them. It was the same thing with the Stormcrow at first, people were so excited that there was an actual viable medium in the game that was good and fun to pilot, but after the shine wore off it was nerf this nerf that burn the crows etc, and now we're back to having mediums being just lackluster as a class.

Edited by aniviron, 13 August 2015 - 02:14 PM.

[Scandinavian Jawbreaker]

aniviron, on 13 August 2015 - 02:13 PM, said:

I agree that lights need help, but asking seriously here: What would you do to make the other lights as good as the ACH? I mean, I'm honestly not even sure it's possible. Can you suggest me a serious buff to, say, the Kit Fox, that would make it competitive with the Arctic Cheetah? They're the same tonnage and tech base so it should be easy, but honestly I feel like you'd need +50% weapon quirks and massive structure buffs (on the order of 20 or more per component) to make the KFX look attractive as an alternative to the ACH.

Same goes for the Mist Lynx, which also gets clan tech, and is only five tons lighter (and has worse quirks than the ACH for some reason). What would you suggest for the MLX that could possibly make it competitive with the ACH?

And while IS lights are generally superior to clan lights, the Urbanmech, Spider, and Commando are all about as bad as the MLX, with some variants (looking at you SDR-5V) which are considerably worse.

My point is that I don't think it's possible to buff all lights to the same level as the ACH. You'd be looking at Huggin-level quirks or higher on every single light mech in the game, which suggests that there is something deeper going wrong here.

I'm guessing people will change their minds about the ACH once they get bored of seeing them. It was the same thing with the Stormcrow at first, people were so excited that there was an actual viable medium in the game that was good and fun to pilot, but after the shine wore off it was nerf this nerf that burn the crows etc, and now we're back to having mediums being just lackluster as a class.

Good that you brought this up because my reply was obviously lacking. The way I think about mechs is that they are different Tier. So I totally agree with you that KFX, MLX, and other lower tier mechs can't be brought to the tier 1 mech levels no matter what. However the tier 1 lights should be pretty much equal. Right now the ACH quirks stand out in huge structure bonus that doesn't apply to FS9 or RVN, which pretty much makes them unequal while equal in terms of fire power.

I also think that way because the lights need to be worth playing. They need help to get the light queues up and quite frankly, they are now at healthy levels probably because of ACH. That's my reasoning for actually buffing the other lights instead of nerfing the good one. While FS9 is good and all, there's too many situations for players that it just pops one shotted. That's not fun for everyone except the for the guy who one shotted it.

Then again as we see on the forums when a useful light mech arrives to the game there is alot of demands nerfing it because it is a somewhat problem in certain levels. I kinda think it's like poor AC2 - underhive can't handle it, it gets slammed by the nerf hammer. At least that's how I see it.

[Mystere]

Logan Frost, on 13 August 2015 - 01:51 PM, said:

Wait, whos asking to gimp it?

Go look inside this thread.

Edited by Mystere, 13 August 2015 - 03:45 PM.

[Mystere]

DivineEvil, on 13 August 2015 - 02:10 PM, said:

... wrapped into unrealistically scaled hitboxes ...

How do you know the scale of the hitboxes? Do you have a diagram that illustrates precisely their dimensions?

[TLBFestus]

Tahribator, on 13 August 2015 - 01:17 AM, said:

I feel like the only problem with the ACH is that it's simply too tough. It takes a stupid amount of damage and attention to bring down. Whole teams chasing an ACH for minutes at the end of a round is not a rare sight.

Actually, this has been a VERY common sight lately. Initially I attributed this to the player base running around in the "new toy" but I've come to see it as an indication that something is not quite right with the ACh.

Your explanation of the phenomena seems just about spot on.

Edited by TLBFestus, 13 August 2015 - 03:55 PM.

[Logan Frost]

Mystere, on 13 August 2015 - 03:23 PM, said:

How do you know the scale of the hitboxes? Do you have a diagram that illustrates precisely their dimensions?

Ive seen a few posts of them washing damage and have experienced it myself. Ive put two ERPPC's into the chest of one at sub100M distance(So its basically impossible that my shots didnt hit it or the side torso.) and all the damage it took was to make the right ARM mildly yellow. Something is just up with its boxes.

[Gas Guzzler]

Logan Frost, on 13 August 2015 - 04:27 PM, said:

Ive seen a few posts of them washing damage and have experienced it myself. Ive put two ERPPC's into the chest of one at sub100M distance(So its basically impossible that my shots didnt hit it or the side torso.) and all the damage it took was to make the right ARM mildly yellow. Something is just up with its boxes.

That sounds like hit reg to me not hitboxes.

[MechWarrior5152251]

Can't beat em join em. This will be ARctic Cheaters Online come October 20. RIP MWO....

[bad arcade kitty]

when they are for c-bills their hitboxes will be properly fixed and quirks removed

[Mystere]

Gas Guzzler, on 13 August 2015 - 04:29 PM, said:

That sounds like hit reg to me not hitboxes.

That is a hit registration problem.

MechWarrior5152251, on 13 August 2015 - 04:38 PM, said:

Can't beat em join em. This will be ARctic Cheaters Online come October 20. RIP MWO....

Yeah, people like you have been saying that since the very beginning it's now just an ancient broken 45.

[Dino Might]

Mystere, on 13 August 2015 - 11:33 AM, said:

Here's the rub. No two people are ever literally equal. That is the reason why people and equipment are rotated during tests to remove that uncertainty from the equation.

So who's willing to setting up a 100-1000 round test in the name of science?

I have over 800 matches in the LCT-1E. I bet some people are nearing 500 in their Cheetos by now, considering how darn many of them I see. Let's find someone with comparable skills and compare overall average damage per match and kills per match and see which chassis comes out on top. That's as sciency as you're gonna get. Until then, we'll keep making excuses about lack of data for something that is objectively observable by everyone via the mechlab.

[Catra Lanis]

ugrakarma, on 13 August 2015 - 01:49 PM, said:

Just now we did some lobby testing with different pings and assault mechs against an ACH. And you're wrong. If the assault pilot can maneuver and aim ACH will lose. One time it did win was against an Atlas by hugging it so the Atlas was unable to use it's high torso mounted weapons. ACH can gank a Dire by maneuvering, but in the end, that's exactly how it should be. It was relatively easy to fight against ACH in a good maneuvering mech let's say Executioner with an arm to follow the legs with lasers. The armour and weaponry is just too much for a light mech.

Here's an example of a closer encounter at NA server with 140 ping (skip to 1:50), one of the closer matches:


It's still is quite hard for the ACH to stay in the rear side of the Dire Wolf. The fight went on in the water so you can't shoot legs. The gauss rifles are devastating, pretty much any pinpoint is while lasers spread the damage more. Now let's say there's two of them, yes the Dire will be ganked, as it should, but probably ACH's severely damaged.

As for hitreg, I didn't see that much difference. Higher ping the damage delays, as you can see from the kill shot, with maybe some anomalities. After the recent HSR changes the hitreg is all around good for PUG matches.

Then why does it happen time and again with people I know are competent in their assaults? I know you can kill it in an assault, I have done so but I disagree that the assault has the advantage unless in an artificial situation. The problem is not with the assaults though. The problem is that no other light except maybe the Firestarter can hold a candle to it. The Cheetahs hitboxes combned with it moving like a chipmunk on crack thanks to jumpjets mean that the guy in the other light has to be twice as accurate as the cheetah pilot in the same time frame.

Edited by Catra Lanis, 14 August 2015 - 12:29 AM.

[Deathpactt]

Lights are already in a bad spot(%5 queue?wtf). IS has firestarter and clan now has ac but I think both sides need more viable lights, not to nerf the only viable ones.

[Cyborne Elemental]

OK, so take the Firestarter-A that we just got done dealing with, Swap its XL for a STD engine but keep its speed, then give it ECM, give it double range SPL, then add 2-3 tons of armor worth of structure over its entire body, oh and scale the model down a tiny bit too.

Broken?
Understatement?

Edited by Mister D, 14 August 2015 - 02:22 AM.

[Dino Might]

Mister D, on 14 August 2015 - 02:21 AM, said:

OK, so take the Firestarter-A that we just got done dealing with, Swap its XL for a STD engine but keep its speed, then give it ECM, give it double range SPL, then add 2-3 tons of armor worth of structure over its entire body, oh and scale the model down a tiny bit too.

Broken?
Understatement?

You still need to give it more powerful small pulse lasers as well...

[Lily from animove]

Deathpactt, on 14 August 2015 - 02:15 AM, said:

Lights are already in a bad spot(%5 queue?wtf). IS has firestarter and clan now has ac but I think both sides need more viable lights, not to nerf the only viable ones.

many lights are viable, but usually epople deathball and play skirmishing, thats why FS9's and ACH's are favoured. some other lights require to be more of snipers, which in pug matches is not to their favour. especially non CW, because there maps often don't offer the terrain for this playstyle. The Adder works very well in CW as a sniper, very very well. Most people just play it th wrong way. But then, yes there are some lights needing help.
And the reason why light queue is low, simply comes form the fact that lights are not very variable mechs. they have low tonnage and so you have to play most lights too similar. FS9, take them ALL in comaprsion, they are mostly build the same: full of lasersin harassing playstyle. This generates less variety, and makes constantly playing lights very boring.
fFel the need to boat missiiles, or ballistics, lights won't be a choice. Same for lower tonnage mediums. They simply lack variety by this. And so they are used a lot less.

Edited by Lily from animove, 14 August 2015 - 04:14 AM.

[Lugh]

TLBFestus, on 13 August 2015 - 03:55 PM, said:

Actually, this has been a VERY common sight lately. Initially I attributed this to the player base running around in the "new toy" but I've come to see it as an indication that something is not quite right with the ACh.

Your explanation of the phenomena seems just about spot on.

My anecdotal evidence is that the 'whole team' , completely sucks at aiming, because I typically will cut the pursuit and finish the cheetah in 1 or 2 shots at that point.

[Sarlic]

Lugh, on 14 August 2015 - 04:14 AM, said:

My anecdotal evidence is that the 'whole team' , completely sucks at aiming, because I typically will cut the pursuit and finish the cheetah in 1 or 2 shots at that point.

Sure thing. With a full streak Crow?

Edited by Sarlic, 14 August 2015 - 04:19 AM.

[Lugh]

Catra Lanis, on 14 August 2015 - 12:27 AM, said:

Then why does it happen time and again with people I know are competent in their assaults? I know you can kill it in an assault, I have done so but I disagree that the assault has the advantage unless in an artificial situation. The problem is not with the assaults though. The problem is that no other light except maybe the Firestarter can hold a candle to it. The Cheetahs hitboxes combned with it moving like a chipmunk on crack thanks to jumpjets mean that the guy in the other light has to be twice as accurate as the cheetah pilot in the same time frame.

So are these 'competant in their assaults' people doing like this guy did and circling in the open with the ACH so it can get behind it often? If they are, they are not 'competant' they barely know what they are doing. This encounter would have been EVEN EASIER had the DW backed against the ship to protect most of its rear quarters.

Fighting lights and more maneuverable enemies that are attempting to get behind you you are better served with your back to solid terrain.

Sarlic, on 14 August 2015 - 04:19 AM, said:

Sure thing. With a full streak Crow?

Any mech with medium lasers.

[Scandinavian Jawbreaker]

Lugh, on 14 August 2015 - 04:33 AM, said:

So are these 'competant in their assaults' people doing like this guy did and circling in the open with the ACH so it can get behind it often? If they are, they are not 'competant' they barely know what they are doing. This encounter would have been EVEN EASIER had the DW backed against the ship to protect most of its rear quarters.

Fighting lights and more maneuverable enemies that are attempting to get behind you you are better served with your back to solid terrain.

Please elaborate how I "circled in the open" so the ACH could get behind me? And we had a deal that no back to the wall to make it somewhat fair.