116 replies to this topic

[ccrider]

There have been numerous topics posted about CW and how it should be fixed and about the big, bad units that ruin it for PUGs and how people don't have time to devote to treating MW:O as a second job and joining a unit so I'd like to take a second to clear up some misconceptions and offer insight into what being in a unit is like for most people who play CW.

1. CW is fun. The maps may need some tweaking and we could use some different modes to encourage alternative gameplay but the essence of dropping with friends and getting to use 4 'mechs to shoot other 'mechs is FUN. It's a type of fun that solo or group queue doesn't offer; changing drop decks by maps, coordinating strategies with your team, these things aren't available in the other queues to nearly the degree they are in CW.

2. Units aren't looking to farm PUGs. Contrary to some opinions, most units don't like playing against PUG teams. Playing a team of newbies in trial 'mechs on a regular basis kills discipline and makes you worse. Most of us will look for tougher competition, but the inability to see WHO is queueing up till you drop means that mismatched games will occur. In these cases, most units will dial it back a bit, PUG stomps are not that common, no matter what the forums may lead you to believe.

3. PUGging in CW isn't that bad. I PUG probably a 3rd of my CW matches and while sometimes the matchup is horrible and we get crushed, most matches, (3/4s) are competitive. Even the stomps are worthwhile as I can see what strategies/builds the other team used and take it back to the guys in my unit to either find a way to counter it or use it ourselves. Every game is a learning experience that will make you a better player if you treat it as such and don't simply focus on the "unfairness" of the matchup.

4. Joining a unit isn't this giant time sink. Most units don't require "x" number of hours logged, meetings or practice time. Sure, some comp teams do, but most units are just a collection of guys with similar interests who enjoy jumping on Teamspeak and dropping together.

5. Most units don't require you to run certain builds/'mechs. While I'm sure there are teams that do, most units let you run what you want and we adjust our strategies to who happens to be in the drop and what 'mechs they are bringing. I'd rather drop with 11 guys I get along with, running 'mechs and builds they are comfortable in than cookie cutter builds they may not be that good in simply because you ":gotta bring meta."

6. Joining a unit isn't that big of a deal. My unit has a website, but our recruitment is "drop with one of us, if you have fun, every guy in the unit has the ability to send you a unit invite." There's no 3rd party applications, we aren't running background checks or anything. And the truth is, most units are JUST LIKE MINE. Getting an invite to a unit may take a day or 3, but your not gonna be jumping through hoops or getting hazed; every unit wants extra members, just approach a current player with a tag from a unit you played with and had fun and ask. It's that simple.

7. Teamspeak isn't a necessity but goddam does it make everything easier/more fun. There is a HUGE advantage to using TS; between matches you can work out a strategy, talk some **** with your friends and after a match you can talk about what went wrong or right in your last drop. VOIP is great for coordinating with the random PUGs that fill out a drop of less than 12 but it isn't better than TS. My unit and most every unit I've dropped with when PUGging, will invite you into TS to join them. If you have TS, take them up on the offer. You'll find that even a team that whupped your *** a few days before is fun as hell to drop with when you get to know them.

8. This game IS a social game. If you are part of a team, whether as a unit member or one of 12 guys matched up randomly, you are now a team and the best teams COMMUNICATE. Don't be afraid to talk, but for those without a mic, at least listen; you'll get far greater results and enjoy your time more if you know what/why things are happening. If you PUG and drop with an established unit, you can ask them questions about builds/maps/whatever. 99% of the guys I've dropped with are f'n helpful as hell to anyone asking questions. Don't think that you'll be brushed off as some newbie who needs to be ignored; we all want more guys playing CW and will help you get better and enjoy it more so you will play and we can enjoy the mode we like best.

TL;DR: Stop worrying about things that never/rarely happen and go try CW with an open mind and TS installed. If you go in with the attitude that you wanna have fun and can be at least sociable enough to listen, you'll have a freaking blast, I promise. Hell, friend me in-game and I'll show you around myself.

[Lorian Sunrider]

Or even better, don't care about what a pointless map says overall and just have fun playing haha

[ccrider]

Ahh, it's worth caring, but CW should run 3-4 "seasons" per year. You'd have time to make a run with your faction, a big event to end every season and data that could be used to help with faction population issues and stuff.

[sycocys]

#2 - With only a few exceptions this is pretty much flat out untrue. Unless its mostly honorable like MS, Kcom, or 228 - as soon as units outside the FRR hit competition they go fight on another border.

And there's a reason for this, because the reward system rewards them far better for doing so. More LP, 300k c-bills per match if they don't actually face the possibility of loss.

[MrJeffers]

ccrider, on 08 January 2016 - 10:22 AM, said:

<snip>

4. Joining a unit isn't this giant time sink. Most units don't require "x" number of hours logged, meetings or practice time. Sure, some comp teams do, but most units are just a collection of guys with similar interests who enjoy jumping on Teamspeak and dropping together.

5. Most units don't require you to run certain builds/'mechs. While I'm sure there are teams that do, most units let you run what you want and we adjust our strategies to who happens to be in the drop and what 'mechs they are bringing. I'd rather drop with 11 guys I get along with, running 'mechs and builds they are comfortable in than cookie cutter builds they may not be that good in simply because you ":gotta bring meta."

6. Joining a unit isn't that big of a deal. My unit has a website, but our recruitment is "drop with one of us, if you have fun, every guy in the unit has the ability to send you a unit invite." There's no 3rd party applications, we aren't running background checks or anything. And the truth is, most units are JUST LIKE MINE. Getting an invite to a unit may take a day or 3, but your not gonna be jumping through hoops or getting hazed; every unit wants extra members, just approach a current player with a tag from a unit you played with and had fun and ask. It's that simple.

7. Teamspeak isn't a necessity but goddam does it make everything easier/more fun. There is a HUGE advantage to using TS; between matches you can work out a strategy, talk some **** with your friends and after a match you can talk about what went wrong or right in your last drop. VOIP is great for coordinating with the random PUGs that fill out a drop of less than 12 but it isn't better than TS. My unit and most every unit I've dropped with when PUGging, will invite you into TS to join them. If you have TS, take them up on the offer. You'll find that even a team that whupped your *** a few days before is fun as hell to drop with when you get to know them.

8. This game IS a social game. If you are part of a team, whether as a unit member or one of 12 guys matched up randomly, you are now a team and the best teams COMMUNICATE. Don't be afraid to talk, but for those without a mic, at least listen; you'll get far greater results and enjoy your time more if you know what/why things are happening. If you PUG and drop with an established unit, you can ask them questions about builds/maps/whatever. 99% of the guys I've dropped with are f'n helpful as hell to anyone asking questions. Don't think that you'll be brushed off as some newbie who needs to be ignored; we all want more guys playing CW and will help you get better and enjoy it more so you will play and we can enjoy the mode we like best.

You just take your facts and logic out of here, there is no place for that in General Discussion!

Seriously though, points 4-7 need to be reapeated, often. People that are complaining about units just don't seem to understand that. Many units the time commitment is taking the extra 30 seconds to start teamspeak and join in with a group of other unit members that happen to be online at the same time as you.

Edited by MrJeffers, 08 January 2016 - 11:07 AM.

[ccrider]

sycocys, on 08 January 2016 - 11:04 AM, said:

#2 - With only a few exceptions this is pretty much flat out untrue. Unless its mostly honorable like MS, Kcom, or 228 - as soon as units outside the FRR hit competition they go fight on another border.

And there's a reason for this, because the reward system rewards them far better for doing so. More LP, 300k c-bills per match if they don't actually face the possibility of loss.

That may be true in some circumstances, I'm only judging based on my experience. We dropped on the Clan border all day yesterday with the exception of one match against Marik where we ran into a mostly PUG team then switched planets. I'm sure that some units may break that rule, but the units I've played with (my experience is only with Kurita, Liao and Davion so two of my factions had limited border choices) have always looked to get better competition. Playing good units makes you better; farming PUGs may pay well but it makes you soft.

[Felbombling]

I wish #2 were true, but I kinda doubt it.

http://mwomercs.com/...__fromsearch__1

[AssaultPig]

#2 just isn't true, unless you believe that all the players in these units are simply idiots.

if these units actually wanted competitive matches, they'd be organizing to join opposing factions with adjacent borders (and likely, splitting up into sub-units so they could more easily play against one another.) Instead, what they do is congregate in a handful of large 'super-units' on the same side/faction (clans during tukayyid, now IS.)

the suggestion that these units be forcibly broken up to generate more competitive matches / better faction distribution was met with entirely predictable gnashing of teeth

[MrJeffers]

AssaultPig, on 08 January 2016 - 12:44 PM, said:

#2 just isn't true, unless you believe that all the players in these units are simply idiots. if these units actually wanted competitive matches, they'd be organizing to join opposing factions with adjacent borders (and likely, splitting up into sub-units so they could more easily play against one another.) Instead, what they do is congregate in a handful of large 'super-units' on the same side/faction (clans during tukayyid, now IS.) the suggestion that these units be forcibly broken up to generate more competitive matches / better faction distribution was met with entirely predictable gnashing of teeth

# 2 isn't true. There are plenty of other reasons that units are switching factions and are making alliances with other units/factions. It isn't to farm pugs, it's to drive to other common goals such as cutting off attack lanes, or opening up new ones and so on. Playing against pugs happens because of the queue system, units are not forcing the queues to match up like they are, they are joining queues just like everyone else.

What you are implying is that units should be forced into specific factions and forced into specific queues so that only units play against other specific units. No alliances, no player control of their faction or direction. That's just asinine.

Edited by MrJeffers, 08 January 2016 - 12:55 PM.

[TWIAFU]

AssaultPig, on 08 January 2016 - 12:44 PM, said:

#2 just isn't true, unless you believe that all the players in these units are simply idiots.

if these units actually wanted competitive matches, they'd be organizing to join opposing factions with adjacent borders (and likely, splitting up into sub-units so they could more easily play against one another.) Instead, what they do is congregate in a handful of large 'super-units' on the same side/faction (clans during tukayyid, now IS.)

the suggestion that these units be forcibly broken up to generate more competitive matches / better faction distribution was met with entirely predictable gnashing of teeth

#2 is true for us Loyalists, those Merc Units is a different story.

We are in opposing Factions and want teams to play against and NOT these steamtard pug groups with trial decks.

Stop them from ruining CW for themselves and the problem goes away.

Not like they were warned what they were getting into from the very first time they clicked CW.

[AssaultPig]

to be clear, I don't actually think breaking up large units would really help

I am just saying that if all these units really are interesting in playing highly competitive matches as much as possible, they're organizing themselves in pretty much the least effective possible way. I assume these players aren't dunces, so the way they're choosing to organize must serve some other goal.

[MrJeffers]

AssaultPig, on 08 January 2016 - 01:00 PM, said:

to be clear, I don't actually think breaking up large units would really help

I am just saying that if all these units really are interesting in playing highly competitive matches as much as possible, they're organizing themselves in pretty much the least effective possible way. I assume these players aren't dunces, so the way they're choosing to organize must serve some other goal.

Yes - exactly - some other goal. And people, including yourself in the previous statement, keep saying it can only be farming pugs without even considering there even are other reasons. Its a joke.

And you know what - units DO organize and match up against each other, in the player run leagues and I assume with the upcoming PGI tournament. Or in private matches. Forcing units against each other in public queues requires rewriting the match makers to add that as a criteria.

Edited by MrJeffers, 08 January 2016 - 01:07 PM.

[PerfectDuck]

The point of this thread is to clear up misconceptions. People who disagree with #2, I can understand why, because it might be mentally taxing to try to view the world from others' viewpoints and to try to grasp that there are people who think and act differently from others. It's a fallacy to assume just because you do something or think a certain way, that everybody else will follow that same logic.

Chances are if you're hung up on #2, the concept of competitive play is foreign to you and that you yourself are not really a competitive player. That's fine but these baseless accusations are getting really offensive. I'm going to try to spell it out here.

Here goes. Take it in a few times and re-read the following so that it might digest: There are people out there who aren't cowardly and hope for an easy 'victory' to feel good about themselves. Easy, guaranteed wins don't even make them feel good about themselves, it feels like time wasted. These people don't fear losing, in fact they know that playing against a superior opponent is one of the best ways to learn and improve. They don't want a handicap. These people enjoy a challenge. Imbalance and RNG elements that might allow an inferior player to win (like blue shells or critical hits) are things that they wish didn't exist. You will find a good number of these people in the top-level units and casual units alike and they are there not because they like to win but because they stuck through in spite of the losses to get where they are today. Their favorite thing to do is to see themselves and their comrades improve and the most interesting thing to them is seeing how far they can go and how good they can get. These are called competitive people.

[Jaybles-The-PegLeg-PotatoCaptain]

With regards to #2, My unit is the Golden Foxes. We are a very casual group that enjoys dropping in CW for the most part. Usually in fairly large groups 8-12mans. Our current in game pop is 145 players, before steam release it was 110 ish. Of that I think 43 participated in Tuk2. We have added at least 35 ish new players in less than a month. Yes those players drop into CW with us. Yes some or all of their drop decks may be trials.

From the tone of the forums recently..... it seems as a unit the community has given us 3 options.

Because we are a 12 man, we should actively be seeking out MS, 228, KCOM, LORDs, 12DG, NS, AS, MJ12, ITx, and any number of units I've failed to mention.

We will be branded cowards if we change words seeking an opponent of a similar skill level. Because, we are obviously only doing it in the hopes of smashing pugs.

We leave CW all together.

Am I supposed to just toss those new people into the meat grinder and hope that they don't have as equally bad experience as random pugs when facing the top units? And then do it, again and again and again? Should I tell them not to play CW? Should my unit impose a gate on these new players? What gate should that be? I've seen new players do damn near 2k damage in trials, and people not break 100 with founders tags.

Or Should I move to a different planet not being hit by known top units hoping to catch another unit closer in skill to ours. What is fair to my unit? Is it any more or less fair for us to be fed to a top unit than it is for pugs to be fed to us?

We play to have fun. Sometimes we get rolled hard, sometimes we roll, most of the time it falls in between. And we encourage every untagged player we come across to join a unit or at the very least hop in LFG and use their faction's TS.

#the12manboogiemanisreal

[cSand]

PerfectDuck, on 08 January 2016 - 01:31 PM, said:

That's fine but these baseless accusations are getting really offensive.

wrong guy, apologies

Edited by cSand, 08 January 2016 - 02:04 PM.

[MrJeffers]

cSand, on 08 January 2016 - 01:38 PM, said:

Unit games the system intentionally, switches sides cause the clans got a nerf to prove "IS OP", and avoids combat vs other high level units by changing faction.




...decries "baseless accusations"

I know right? Because the only possible reason any unit would switch factions is to avoid another unit.

Edited by MrJeffers, 08 January 2016 - 01:45 PM.

[MrJeffers]

cSand, on 08 January 2016 - 01:46 PM, said:

Go look it up. I was responding to that guy specifically, so feel free to unwind your unit-issue panties

So then you are calling out his unit then? If not take your 'unit's gaming the system' issues elsewhere. Name and shame doesn't apply to unit names. Quit using generalizations.

[Logan Pryde]

Great post OP, I agree with quite a few of your points and I feel that the average PUG players' game experience would be greatly enhanced by joining a unit... any unit!

On #2, I can say from my experiences in MWO, as I have played with 2 different units (formerly with JFP and currently with 228) that the most fun and exciting CW games are against other organized units. Just in the last couple nights I've had some really enjoyable and exiting matches against NS and CH. Those are the ones I remember, the drops against pugs I don't remember... you just try to get through the matches against pugs as fast as possible so you can get to another challenging and fun drop vs. another Unit.

[ccrider]

cSand, on 08 January 2016 - 01:56 PM, said:

It says &quot;unit games the system&quot; not &quot;units gaming the system&quot; - big difference in what it implies so read more carefully OK. There are lots of great units in this game - his is not one of them. The large unit boogeyman is not real but a few bad apples can and have spoiled the bunch - hence the perceived need for a &quot;misconceptions&quot; thread such as this. You really think the general opinion of large units is so low in CW for no reason?

I was responding directly to his comment so I'm not sure how much less general I can get. He's a big boy he can respond if he wants it doesn't really matter though. There's nothing to call out, I just was saying the irony of his condescending post there given the group he represents

You have your ducks mixed up. Perfectduck is NS and they are a great unit. The "color coded" ducks are who you are thinking if.

[cSand]

ccrider, on 08 January 2016 - 02:02 PM, said:

You have your ducks mixed up. Perfectduck is NS and they are a great unit. The "color coded" ducks are who you are thinking if.

Oh well my apologies to Perfectduck then.