102 replies to this topic

[Droolcup Commando]

I surprised a friend a week or so ago when i told him how the CER-Med lasers are now. He was curious why i never used them anymore, and when i said i use med pulse only cause they are cooler he was utterly confused.
he proceeded to look at them and saw how much they changed and was straight up like "WTF why are they so bad!?"

The point of the previous paragraph is:
Why the heck are Clan ER-Medium lasers so dang bad now. they are basically un-useable any form of boating setup and stock mechs like the Nova-Prime are a walking death sentence cause its way too hot to be effective most the the match.

On a similar note why do Clan Mechs feel so disadvantaged nowadays. I feel like w/e team has the larger Inner Sphere mech force is gonna win. Mainly due to them having some of the best new tech and HP pools larger than just about anything a Clanner can field.

Bare in mind im not saying things are horribly imbalanced but i do feel like many Clan mechs are severely hampered by how bad the non pulse lasers are outside of a few meta builds on specific mechs. Trying to use CER-Meds to fill in hardpoint slots for more Fire Power is just asking to Overheat.

I could just be imagining things though, feel free to share your thoughts.

[The6thMessenger]

What?

Clan ER-ML is actually pretty good. Yeah it needs a bit of heat lowered, but it's a 1-ton weapon that does 6.5 damage at 400m. If anything, it's the best backup weapon, because it can also be turned into a stopgap primary weapon when boated; you could bring 4 LRM15A + 6x ERSL that is too LRM oriented, or you can bring 2x LRM20A + 6x ERML that which has good direct-fire output.

And when it's used with the Clan Laser-Vomit; 2x HLL + 4x ERML, thats literally the meta laser-vomit build. You can use 2x ERLL or 2x LPL, but basically ERML pads the laser vomit damage and is an integral part of it.

Clan ERML, IS ERML, ML, ERSL, HSL, CHML, CMPL, these are GH linked. The CERML can fire 6 before GH, so if you're using a Nova, I assume that you used 12 all at once, that is why it is instead paired with Large-Lasers.

Clan actually has the weight advantage over IS, so unfunning them by less armor and general sluggishness is just their balance strategy right now. It's annoying really.

[Meep Meep]

Most of the fights are in the 300~400m range so I typically use heavy meds as my secondary energy on clam boats. Besides most clan laser vomit boats can also fit in a shizzton of double sinks so even if they near max the heat bar on an alpha its almost back to zero heat by the time heavy lasers cycle and a couple of bonused cool shots can quickly finish a fresh mech with the follow up alphas.

[Droolcup Commando]

i was never silly enough to fire all 10-12 lasers on the nova at once. Bigger issue is after firing one set of 6 you are sitting at about 50+ heat depending on skills or quirks if available.

Over all for most my builds i find their heat too high to be overly useful outside of having a couple on an energy arm for shooting down UAVs. trying to use more than 4 along with any other decent heat generating weapons is very risky and i find small pulses to be more useful in general combat (mostly cause they can do their damage on swarming lights easier or fire often enough to chew off a weakened torso on a rushing heavy without mega heat spikes

That being said i do feel C-Med lasers (and heavy-med) do well in rooftop hit and run situations cause you can unload on someone then cool-off with "some safety" (Jump jet lights and mediums always on the prowl).

Basically i just feel like C-med lasers are inferior outside of situations where you can utilize their range to full effect. Not saying they are not fieldable but they do feel bad most the time for me. Im sure for others they do just fine

[RickySpanish]

Yeah you can't really do much with them on their own, they're really only good for packing the extra alpha punch on something mounting other bigger weapons, like heavy large lasers. It's rather tough to justify them otherwise because vs mpls, you need at least a ton anyway for a heatsink.

Edited by RickySpanish, 28 February 2021 - 06:05 PM.

[FupDup]

The stock Nova Prime was never a viable mech. It was never viable in Tabletop, or any previous MW game, or during the initial Clan release in MWO. Drop down to 8 or maybe 10 ERMLs to make the Nova Prime's stock loadout usable.

That aside, the CERML is kinda clunky in terms of how it can be used but it is a very strong weapon still. The bigger issue is that the Clans don't really have a proper equivalent of the IS Medium Laser, which leaves a big open hole in the Clan laser lineup. I'd suggest boosting the range on the CERSL to make it act more like a baby ML (people always made that comparison anyways so might as well lean into it). I'm not asking for the full 270m, more like 230-240 or so. Bear in mind that the CERSL also has a longer duration and a bit more heat compared to the IS ML so there is still a trade-off between the two.

Ideally we'd also get a timeline advancement and the introduction of Clan Chemical Lasers, which would give the Clams lasers with similar range, damage, and duration as IS STD lasers but with even lower heat at the cost of needing to mount ammo.

Edited by FupDup, 28 February 2021 - 06:53 PM.

[Wildstreak]

cERMLs are in an odd place, they have a longer CD than cERLLs for one.

[The6thMessenger]

Wildstreak, on 28 February 2021 - 09:24 PM, said:

cERMLs are in an odd place, they have a longer CD than cERLLs for one.

Yeah the Duration, CD, and heat needs a bit of reduction, but to an IS mech, they are basically 1.5 ton large-lasers -- 3 CERMLs for 2 LLs.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 03 March 2021 - 04:20 AM.

[Heavy Money]

cERMLs have good DPS and good range, but bad burn time and heat.
They do 1.44 dps. cMedPulse is doing 2.17, or 1.08 per ton. So that's less per ton. And the cMPL has worse heat (but better per ton), and it has worse range. Its just easier to land the damage due to shorter burn duration.

IS Medium Lasers are 1.43 dps and .97 heat per second, vs cERML's 1.4.
IS ERMLs are 1.25 dps and 1.13 heat.

When you consider the differences in range and DPS, cERMLs are paying more to do more at longer range, but are slightly harder to use due to the burn time.

The real problem is that often you're paying (in heat and burn time) for range that you don't need. When you do need it, its worth it though. And they have a significantly bigger alpha than the others, except the Heavy Med.

Edited by Heavy Money, 28 February 2021 - 09:40 PM.

[Vindicated]

Clan ERML 400 optimal 800 max
Clan MPL 330 optimal 480 max (NOTE this is a very steep drop)

At no point did you mention the range, that means I assume you are not using the full range of ERML. At over 500m (accounting for range quirks/skill tree, this can be 550-600m) the cMPL will do NO damage whereas the cERML will still do damage (and most of it too because optimal is 460m with skill tree). Just by standing a little further back, the mech using cERML will be able to do unreturned damage against the cMPL (or other shorter range weapon) mech.

Edited by Vindicated, 01 March 2021 - 01:22 AM.

[D A T A]

Clan er meds, alongside with heavy large lasers and gauss are the 3 most OVERNERFED garbage in this game since 2017.
Every single player with a resemblance of skill knows that, its blunt evident.

"But, b b b but i think they are strong!!!!"
Easy, its because you are a pug...

Edit, clan mpl and lpl suck too, litterally all laser weapons are trash, the only exceptions are INNER SPHERE MPL and INNER SPHERE ERLL.
All the other lasers are trash.

Not a single decent player, not a single decent unit has ever used clan laser vomits or clan laser gauss since the laser damage overnerf ******** in september 2017

Edited by D A T A, 01 March 2021 - 03:19 AM.

[The6thMessenger]

D A T A, on 01 March 2021 - 03:14 AM, said:

Clan er meds, alongside with heavy large lasers and gauss are the 3 most OVERNERFED garbage in this game since 2017.
Every single player with a resemblance of skill knows that, its blunt evident.

"But, b b b but i think they are strong!!!!"
Easy, its because you are a pug...

It's a matter of different environments. I mean yeah, the common point-and-click adventure elite might not like the CERML for it's long duration or high heat, and would prefer the laser-vomit from an IS, but it's not like Comp in QP.

Don't get me wrong, I agree, CERML much like many other previously overperforming weapons are hamfistedly nerfed by the Balance Overlords that barely play their own game.

But at 1-ton a-piece, good bang-and-range per buck.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 01 March 2021 - 03:34 AM.

[D A T A]

The6thMessenger, on 01 March 2021 - 03:33 AM, said:

It's a matter of different environments. I mean yeah, the common point-and-click adventure elite might not like the CERML for it's long duration or high heat, and would prefer the laser-vomit from an IS, but it's not like Comp in QP.

Don't get me wrong, I agree, CERML much like many other previously overperforming weapons are hamfistedly nerfed by the Balance Overlords that barely play their own game.

But at 1-ton a-piece, good bang-and-range per buck.

Don't get me wrong.
IS laser vomit is **** too. (Only exception is black knight with 10% heat quirk xl350 3ll+6erml tc1 20 dhs, but even then, just barely decent compared to current meta)
We are not talking about top 10 players in the world. We are talking about every division A team MRBC or MOR since 2017. Dozens of players.
And no, it is not about environments, even QP or FP laser vomits are garbage trash.
There is no place for clan ermed based builds. And al the discussions focused on damage per ton are just blind and narrow, there are a lot more other variables.

Current meta since 2017 is
CERPPC
uac5 uac10 clan and IS (IS better)
AC2 clan and is
Ac10 only is
IS ERLL boat
IS mpl boat fast mech
IS srm boat fast mech
IS lrm boat
Maybe atms

It is safe to say that CERML, CHLL, GAUSS, CHML are the top 4 most riddicolously useless garbage guns in the game

Edited by D A T A, 01 March 2021 - 05:38 AM.

[Gagis]

I claim that in addition to the Black Knight, both LL+ERML GHR-Mjölnir and MAD-BH2 are also strong, tho both mainly for their excellent survival quirks.

Neither is clan lasers tho.

Edited by Gagis, 01 March 2021 - 06:05 AM.

[chaosshade2638]

Clan ER Mediums aren't too bad imo, although they do have slowest cycle rate of all lasers.

Laser Cooldown Rates aren't just determined by the "cooldown" stat, the "laser duration" stat also affects the cooldown because the laser needs to deliver its burn THEN cooldown, so with that in mind, the following stats are the combined "laser duration" and "cooldown" stat.

Clan ER Micro Laser: 3sec (2.25 cd, 0.75 burn)
Clan ER Small Laser: 4.4sec (3.5 cd, 1.1 burn)
Clan ER Medium Laser: 5.75sec (4.5 cd, 1.25 burn)
Clan ER Large Laser: 5.35sec (4.0 cd, 1.35 burn)

IS ER Small Laser: 3.5sec (2.75 cd, 0.75 burn)
IS ER Medium Laser: 4.9sec (4.0 cd, 0.9 burn)
IS ER Large Laser: 4.5sec (3.4 cd, 1.1 burn)

IS Small Laser: 3sec (2.25 cd, 0.75 burn)
IS Medium Laser: 4.4sec (3.5 cd, 0.9 burn)
IS Large Laser: 4.2sec (3.1 cd, 1.1 burn)

Medium lasers, both normal an ER were nerfed on both sides to have a longer cooldown so that it was more difficult to boat them effectively. Looking at the Heavy Lasers we see a more gradual curve instead of a weird spike at the "medium-class" laser.

Heavy Small Laser: 5.2sec (4.0 cd, 1.2 burn)
Heavy Medium Laser: 6.95sec (5.5 cd, 1.45 burn)
Heavy Large Laser: 7.3sec (5.75 cd, 1.55 burn)

Frankly the Heavy Lasers could do with a speed buff, they generate an enough heat to be self-regulating.

Edited by chaosshade2638, 01 March 2021 - 06:40 AM.

[Wildstreak]

Heavy Money, on 28 February 2021 - 09:31 PM, said:

And they have a significantly bigger alpha than the others, except the Heavy Med.

I do not like a single Heavy Laser and find no reason to use them.

D A T A, on 01 March 2021 - 03:14 AM, said:

INNER SPHERE ERLL.
All the other lasers are trash.

Seems there is little difference between LL and ERLL.

Gagis, on 01 March 2021 - 06:04 AM, said:

I claim that in addition to the Black Knight, both LL+ERML GHR-Mjölnir and MAD-BH2 are also strong, tho both mainly for their excellent survival quirks.

Neither is clan lasers tho.

All my Grasshoppers are doing fine though I have not run the 5J since it is not a low XP Mech now.

[w0qj]

I second Meep Meep's suggestion for the shorter range Heavy Medium Laser, with its 10-damage-for-1-ton and more heat efficient than ER-Medium-Laser.

Try playing with different Nova chasis with ER-Medium-Laser vs Heavy Medium Laser and you would get a very good feel of the heat issues involved.

1. Stock Nova NVA-Prime(I) with 12x ER-Medium-Laser (ERML), but no AMS.
Fire only 6x ERML at a time! Never fire all 12x ERML at once (tried it once by accident--never again!).

2. Stock Nova NVA-S(C), with "only" 6x ER-Medium-Laser, but with space for more heat sinks.
Notice the big difference in heat management between (1) vs (2)?
The Nova can never have enough heat sinks to effectively mitigate the ER-Medium-Laser heat issues,
especially when you are firing two banks totaling 12x ERML.

3. Now, Try Nova NVA-Prime(I) with 8x Heavy Medium Laser (4x in each arm), especially after fully skilling up this mech for heat containment, heat-gen, & coolrun, it's very viable.
Same damage output using Heavy Medium Laser, less heat, but less HML range (but good enough).

I wish that I can put in AMS into NVA-Prime(I) without breaking its Set-of-8 quirks!
(Perhaps MWO can consider Set-of-6 quirks, where you can swap out 2 torsos and keep the quirks).

Meep Meep, on 28 February 2021 - 05:56 PM, said:

Most of the fights are in the 300~400m range so I typically use heavy meds as my secondary energy on clam boats. Besides most clan laser vomit boats can also fit in a shizzton of double sinks so even if they near max the heat bar on an alpha its almost back to zero heat by the time heavy lasers cycle and a couple of bonused cool shots can quickly finish a fresh mech with the follow up alphas.

[RickySpanish]

D A T A, on 01 March 2021 - 05:32 AM, said:

Don't get me wrong.
IS laser vomit is **** too. (Only exception is black knight with 10% heat quirk xl350 3ll+6erml tc1 20 dhs, but even then, just barely decent compared to current meta)
We are not talking about top 10 players in the world. We are talking about every division A team MRBC or MOR since 2017. Dozens of players.
And no, it is not about environments, even QP or FP laser vomits are garbage trash.
There is no place for clan ermed based builds. And al the discussions focused on damage per ton are just blind and narrow, there are a lot more other variables.

Current meta since 2017 is
CERPPC
uac5 uac10 clan and IS (IS better)
AC2 clan and is
Ac10 only is
IS ERLL boat
IS mpl boat fast mech
IS srm boat fast mech
IS lrm boat
Maybe atms

It is safe to say that CERML, CHLL, GAUSS, CHML are the top 4 most riddicolously useless garbage guns in the game

Your comments are always interesting my man, I have to know: In your opinion, what are the most effective 'Mechs right now? Say, top 5?

[Gas Guzzler]

I actually felt the Nova Prime with its So8 quirks was decent with the 12 ER MLs firing 6 then 6. Focus on heat gen and heat dissipation in the skill tree.

Over all though, they are still solid weapons. Maybe slightly lower heat and cooldown (ER LL cools down faster....)

6 ERML + 2 HLL/2 ERLL/2LPL is a pretty reliable way to shoot mechs.

[Nightbird]

C-ERML is in a good place. Not OP or UP. 1 ton for such high alpha damage and DPS and range needs to have some drawbacks... here it is heat and slightly long duration.