102 replies to this topic

[PocketYoda]

Clan Heavy mediums are better than er mediums because er mediums are far to hot.. they do a lot less damage and the extra range is mediocre, also heat is meaningless on clans as players can find ways to mitigate it..

That said i think Clan Heavy large are bugged because when i add them to my mech they show up cooler than Clan er large lasers and large pulse.. which if you read the heat makes no sense..

Could be that all lasers are bugged who knows.

Edited by Samial, 01 March 2021 - 06:46 PM.

[FupDup]

Samial, on 01 March 2021 - 06:45 PM, said:

Clan Heavy mediums are better than er mediums because er mediums are far to hot.. they do a lot less damage and the extra range is mediocre, also heat is meaningless on clans as players can find ways to mitigate it..

That said i think Clan Heavy large are bugged because when i add them to my mech they show up cooler than Clan er large lasers and large pulse.. which if you read the heat makes no sense..

Could be that all lasers are bugged who knows.

There are two reasons for this.

1. The cooldown is so long. Slower rate of fire means lower heat.

2. The heat is spread out over a longer beam duration.

Basically the mechlab is showing you heat over time rather than heat per alpha strike.


Pulse lasers in general tend to run hotter over time because they fire faster and their heat is generated over a shorter duration (and less tonnage for heatsinks).

Edited by FupDup, 01 March 2021 - 06:55 PM.

[PocketYoda]

D A T A, on 01 March 2021 - 05:10 PM, said:

no way if people like you don't have the abilities to understand stuff, not the will to see things form an objective point of view

People tend to take others perspectives and information better when the person giving it is modest and not entitled/arrogant.. Its also just polite to not throw titles and ranks around because for some people it triggers them.

Just some advice take it or leave it tbh.

FupDup, on 01 March 2021 - 06:49 PM, said:

There are two reasons for this.

1. The cooldown is so long. Slower rate of fire means lower heat.

2. The heat is spread out over a longer beam duration.

Basically the mechlab is showing you heat over time rather than heat per alpha strike.


Pulse lasers in general tend to run hotter over time because they fire faster and their heat is generated over a shorter duration (and less tonnage for heatsinks).

Interesting thanks.

Also i noticed no high tiers seem to like Crabs for me they seem to be a pinnicle of a good mech, solid good laser boating and fast with a small design harder to hit.. Maybe its just low tiers but for me Crabs are a really top mech.
1xLPL 5ML
2LL 3ML or MPL
5-6 MPL
3 LPL

i run them std or Light 81 speed. some have JJ and 2AMS etc.

There seems to be no Clan equivilant to IS crabs either.

Edited by Samial, 01 March 2021 - 07:12 PM.

[Valdarion Silarius]

I mainly blame PGI's over zealous nerfing with the competitive scene over the years. It saddens me that cERLL's are such in an abysmal state as of right now. Ghost heat really gimps cLPL's (there were many instances where that very annoying heat spike would shut my mech down, while I try to be extremely cautious about group firing and such). Ironically I never really had an issue with cHLL despite the extremely high heat build up (give or take I do boat a metric ton of heatsinks for anything that runs cHLL's).

Staying back on topic, yes I do think cERML's do build up a little too much heat for their damage output to justify boating them. I think IS and Clans would benefit from a universal heat scaling buff for both SHS/DHS, or some kind of plan to fix the issues with ghost heat.

[Vindicated]

Samial, on 01 March 2021 - 06:45 PM, said:

Clan Heavy mediums are better than er mediums because er mediums are far to hot.. they do a lot less damage and the extra range is mediocre, also heat is meaningless on clans as players can find ways to mitigate it..

That said i think Clan Heavy large are bugged because when i add them to my mech they show up cooler than Clan er large lasers and large pulse.. which if you read the heat makes no sense..

Could be that all lasers are bugged who knows.

Even if you don't care about the range disadvantage (I am a huge proponent in using and abusing any range advantage you have), there is another thing you have to consider, that clan heavy lasers have too much burn time. cERML is already pretty long. I like to run a 6 ERML Incubus in QP for damage farming especially from a safer range, but I can tell you its kill potential is no where near what IS lasers can do, especially IS MPL. To keep it short, the burn time matters because it determines how much of the damage will go to a single component (assuming you have good control).

In higher level game play (even true for a lot of players playing the brainless motions of QP) low exposure time (which includes poptarts) is strong.

• An enemy can expose for less time than you have to burn your lasers fully (especially after reaction time and aiming if you don't have a UAV up for example), so you may not even do full damage.
  
• An enemy with lower duration time weapons (IS MPL 0.6s vs Clan HML 1.45s) which includes front loaded weapons (all damage dealt at same time) such as SRMs can also shield immediately after firing (before you finish) which spreads your damage and can cause part of your damage to go to a non-functional shield arm. Both of these weapons (IS MPL and SRMs) are similar in range to cHML.

Samial, on 01 March 2021 - 07:05 PM, said:

Also i noticed no high tiers seem to like Crabs for me they seem to be a pinnicle of a good mech, solid good laser boating and fast with a small design harder to hit.. Maybe its just low tiers but for me Crabs are a really top mech.

GrimMechs General Tier List (isengrim.org) considers a Crab-27B with 6 MPL (and STD eng because some are CT/head mounted that work without side torsos) to be top S-Tier for QP (the general list is focused on QP) as well as listing the other crab variants (also running MPL) as A-Tier. If you are not familiar, this is a reference many use for build examples as the contributors are some top level comp players.

[Y E O N N E]

Samial, on 01 March 2021 - 07:05 PM, said:

People tend to take others perspectives and information better when the person giving it is modest and not entitled/arrogant.. Its also just polite to not throw titles and ranks around because for some people it triggers them.

Just some advice take it or leave it tbh.

You are mistaking learned apathy for arrogance. Too many times have players at the top attempted to show others how to win, only to be derided as "meta comp tryhards" as if that was some kind of insult by people who ignore the advice and proceed to do the most absolute moronic sh*t known to man in the game and still have the gall to complain about this or that being OP.

Edited by Miss Greene, 02 March 2021 - 10:10 PM.

[LordNothing]

at least the clan version gets more than 5 hitpoints.

[PocketYoda]

Vindicated, on 01 March 2021 - 10:31 PM, said:

Even if you don't care about the range disadvantage (I am a huge proponent in using and abusing any range advantage you have), there is another thing you have to consider, that clan heavy lasers have too much burn time. cERML is already pretty long. I like to run a 6 ERML Incubus in QP for damage farming especially from a safer range, but I can tell you its kill potential is no where near what IS lasers can do, especially IS MPL. To keep it short, the burn time matters because it determines how much of the damage will go to a single component (assuming you have good control).

In higher level game play (even true for a lot of players playing the brainless motions of QP) low exposure time (which includes poptarts) is strong.

• An enemy can expose for less time than you have to burn your lasers fully (especially after reaction time and aiming if you don't have a UAV up for example), so you may not even do full damage.
  
• An enemy with lower duration time weapons (IS MPL 0.6s vs Clan HML 1.45s) which includes front loaded weapons (all damage dealt at same time) such as SRMs can also shield immediately after firing (before you finish) which spreads your damage and can cause part of your damage to go to a non-functional shield arm. Both of these weapons (IS MPL and SRMs) are similar in range to cHML.

GrimMechs General Tier List (isengrim.org) considers a Crab-27B with 6 MPL (and STD eng because some are CT/head mounted that work without side torsos) to be top S-Tier for QP (the general list is focused on QP) as well as listing the other crab variants (also running MPL) as A-Tier. If you are not familiar, this is a reference many use for build examples as the contributors are some top level comp players.

I don't find the burn times that much different both are incredibly too long imo.

Again interesting thanks.

Edit i've actually started going back to pulse lasers thanks to this thread. I've seen some improvement.

Miss Greene, on 02 March 2021 - 10:09 PM, said:

You are mistaking learned apathy for arrogance. Too many times have players at the top attempted to show others how to win, only to be derided as "meta comp tryhards" as if that was some kind of insult by people who ignore the advice and proceed to do the most absolute moronic sh*t known to man in the game and still have the gall to complain about this or that being OP.

Partially was being general not aimed at people, even if it seemed so, but i've noticed a lot of top comp people tend to look down on others even if they don't realise they are doing it.. It tends to get their message lost in the transfer imo.

As i said i've learnt somewhat from this thread, thanks.

Edited by Samial, 03 March 2021 - 03:16 AM.

[D A T A]

Noone looks down on anyone.
Honestly speaking, i am just sick of pugs talking stupid s**t on game balance and ruining it every time. If you are a plumber, your opinion on how to operate a brain surgery not only is wrong, is also irrelevant. I mean, it takes to me 5 seconds to read the patch notes, understand the new flaws in the balance and build my mechs to abuse them, its just that i am sick of doing it and i want a really balanced game.
And the only way to have that is that all non comp players close their mouths and stop pretending to know what they don't know. But again, that's just utopia.
The patch will be a mess unless Gulag values are implemented, i will understand the new meta in 5 secs and the pugs themselves who caused the balance flaw will get farmed by metas they don't even understand....as it always was.
I am just sick to abuse the meta and want a game that is really balanced.

Edited by D A T A, 03 March 2021 - 03:43 AM.

[The6thMessenger]

D A T A, on 03 March 2021 - 03:38 AM, said:

Noone looks down on anyone.
Honestly speaking, i am just sick of pugs talking stupid s**t on game balance and ruining it every time. I mean, it takes to me 5 seconds to read the patch notes, understand tje new flaws in the balance and build my mechs to abuse them, its just that i am sick of doing it and i want a really balanced game.
And the only way to have that is that all non comp players close their mouths and stop pretending to know what they don't know. But again, that's just utopia.
The patch will be a mess unless Gulag values are implemented, i will understand the new meta in 5 secs and the pugs themselves who caused the balance flaw will get farmed by metas they don't even understand....as it always was

The rabble should shut their mouth yeah? Their views derived from their experiences doesn't matter right? Just the top that could consistently and efficiently make do of the balance. You don't look down on them, but you don't want them to speak because they don't know ****. You have to see that what you're saying is an oxymoron.

Don't get me wrong, I agree with the gulag, for it's direction if not the current destination. But what I want for it to be implemented for the precedent that PGI is willing to ******* change from their terrible direction. For PGI to stop being stupid and mediocre.

I respect your views to the meta, I really do -- I really really really ******* do, but after all that is said and done, it's not just your game -- these others play the game too and because of that they have just as much say about it and what they want from it. You can't just force what you want onto everyone else.

If people get off by auto-aim in the game, so long as they pull their weight, who am I to judge? That is what kept them playing. PGI, for all of their stupidity, do have the vested interest to cater to the casual majority.

I say this with much respect I can muster, that there's just difference in philosophy between Comp and Casuals, it's not that we (I) don't want to listen. But at this point, much like the separation of Church and State, our environment could exist in greater purity when separated, as in have a different balance between QP and Comp.

If you can't compromise, that is your best chance of getting anything that doesn't involve the rabble majority shouting you down.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 03 March 2021 - 04:08 AM.

[Gagis]

I admit to looking down on forum warriors. They make this platform toxic and fill this place with extremely bad advice and misinformation and make getting accurate feedback impossibly by covering the scarce good info under a mountain of noise.

MWO would be a better game, instantly the moment these forums were deleted.

Edited by Gagis, 03 March 2021 - 04:13 AM.

[Mech Walesa]

The6thMessenger, on 03 March 2021 - 04:02 AM, said:

The rabble should shut their mouth yeah? Their views derived from their experiences doesn't matter right? Just the top that could consistently and efficiently make do of the balance. You don't look down on them, but you don't want them to speak because they don't know ****. You have to see that what you're saying is an oxymoron.

Don't get me wrong, I agree with the gulag, for it's direction if not the current destination. But what I want for it to be implemented for the precedent that PGI is willing to ******* change from their terrible direction. For PGI to stop being stupid and mediocre

I respect your views to the meta, I really do -- I really really really ******* do, but after all that is said and done, it's not just your game -- these others play the game too and because of that they have just as much say about it and what they want from it. You can't just force what you want onto everyone else.

If people get off by auto-aim in the game, so long as they pull their weight, who am I to judge? That is what kept them playing. PGI, for all of their stupidity, do have the vested interest to cater to the casual majority.

I say this with much respect I can muster, that there's just difference in philosophy between Comp and Casuals, it's not that we (I) don't want to listen. But at this point, much like the separation of Church and State, our environment could exist in greater purity when separated, as in have a different balance between QP and Comp.

If you can't compromise, that is your best chance of getting anything that doesn't involve the rabble majority shouting you down.

you either make a competitive game and listen to ppl like DATA or you make a game for casuals and don't listen to anyone as a developer.
it the last mmo i played (elder scrolls online-zenimax) they catered to the casuals but actually hired a player like DATA that was doing detailed analisys of every skill after every patch.
imho if you want a balanced game then you need to listen to the 1% and mute the rest.

i'm sorry 6th. neither mine or your oppinion on balance should not matter. at all.

[Gagis]

Mech Walesa, on 03 March 2021 - 04:19 AM, said:

it the last mmo i played (elder scrolls online-zenimax) they catered to the casuals but actually hired a player like DATA that was doing detailed analisys of every skill after every patch.
imho if you want a balanced game then you need to listen to the 1% and mute the rest.

EVE Online had a bit of a golden age when they ignored all loud people on their forums and reddit and so on and hired a data scientist to actually figure out what goes on in their game.

Turns out players make **** game designers, don't know what they want and are wrong about the game pretty much all the time.

[The6thMessenger]

Mech Walesa, on 03 March 2021 - 04:19 AM, said:

You either make a competitive game and listen to ppl like DATA or you make a game for casuals and don't listen to anyone as a developer.

Not at all. Third option is to compromise between the Majority Casual, and the Minority Professionals. PGI just sucks at actually compromising, because they think they would just rather do their thing so everyone loses. I prefer Trickle-Down Balancing, a compromise.



Too bad they aren't Valve.

Mech Walesa, on 03 March 2021 - 04:19 AM, said:

it the last mmo i played (elder scrolls online-zenimax) they catered to the casuals but actually hired a player like DATA that was doing detailed analisys of every skill after every patch

imho if you want a balanced game then you need to listen to the 1% and mute the rest.

i'm sorry 6th. neither mine or your oppinion on balance should not matter. at all.

Sure.

But honestly, I would prefer fun over balance if I had to pick between the two.

That always has been, what would be fun for me. PGI is just too stupid to figure out a compromise.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 03 March 2021 - 04:37 AM.

[Gagis]

What would that compromise be? Balance is balance regardless of who is playing. It makes absolutely no sense to say balance for competitibe play is different from balance for casual play. Its the same game and same game mechanics regardless of who is playing and EVERYONE is better off when the competitive experts are trusted to have the most experience with how the game plays out.

The alternative is just loopholes and abused game mechanics. Thats not balance, no matter how casual you are.

There is no dicothomy between competitive balance and casual balance. I reject the entire concept as absurd.

[The6thMessenger]

Gagis, on 03 March 2021 - 04:40 AM, said:

What would that compromise be? Balance is balance regardless of who is playing. It makes absolutely no sense to say balance for competitibe play is different from balance for casual play. Its the same game and same game mechanics regardless of who is playing and EVERYONE is better off when the competitive experts are trusted to have the most experience with how the game plays out.

The alternative is just loopholes and abused game mechanics. Thats not balance, no matter how casual you are.

There is no dicothomy between competitive balance and casual balance. I reject the entire concept as absurd.

Yes, it is the same game, but it's not the same people.

Ideally, people's skill fall on the standard distribution -- the bell-curve (the laplace gaussian curve if you want to get even more specific), that is there's more people in the bottom of the skill, than there is at the top. Ultimately, the game provides an experience, and the balance is just there to calibrate the quality of the experience.

What experience would you want for the people below? While I would like a balanced game, I would like it to be fun and easy to get in to, not so tightly knitted that i might as well be a robot. While the professionals might not be a robot, to a casual and-or newbie, they might as well be one.

There is that fine line of accessibility and balance that we should be striving for, but you can't just reach that when your approach is "**** the low-skill".

To be clear, I am not saying that "don't listen to people like DATA", but that doesn't mean we should just ignore what would the casual majority wants. What could be done is to cater to them, to an extent. Listen to what they want, but people like DATA limit what can be done -- Casuals set the direction, but Comp advances to the destination.

Here's something to consider:

Edited by The6thMessenger, 03 March 2021 - 05:11 AM.

[Bud Crue]

Gagis, on 03 March 2021 - 04:40 AM, said:

What would that compromise be? Balance is balance regardless of who is playing.

The problem as I see it is that PGI's very approach to the concept of "balance" is based on ignorance of play and a desire to make broad brush changes to effect change (because it's easy); almost always in the negative. Casual or comp has nothing to do with it as far as I have been able to tell over the years. PGI sees (or is told of) a given variant excelling with a given weapon and they nerf the weapon. That results in ALL mechs using the weapon to be less effective, while in all likelihood the variant that was the problem will remain a top performer.

E.G. The comp community asks for a nerf to AC2 range or cool down because AC2 boats are over advantaged in comp play. Fine. Problem solved, but that nerf hurts the ballistic Panther just as much if not more so that those competitive AC2 boats. Same as when casuals complained about high energy alpha builds (the dreaded 96 point alpha!) or MG boats. Great, now everything running laser vomit is worse to play (and so now we all play IS MPL boats instead) and no one ever takes less than 4 MGs on anything because there is no point.

Neither are about "balancing", they are broad brush reactionary silliness that enures that the top variants remain at the top while the rest of their hundreds of variants remain second class and equally undesirable for purchase or play. And its all because PGI doesn't understand their own game mechanics and have historically been too lazy to try and figure them out.

Balance in this game will remain nothing more than a dream as long as PGI refuses to play their game at all levels of play and finally understands what gets played and why, and then shows a willingness to put in the effort to actually address balance on a variant and build level rather than just on the basis of weapon performance without context.

Edited by Bud Crue, 03 March 2021 - 05:30 AM.

[Gagis]

Ok, that point I can accept.

[Wildstreak]

Summary: A number of weapons are unbalanced.

Worthless: Yet another comp vs non-comp distraction.

[RickySpanish]

I've had trouble finding 'Mechs that could use c-er-mediums well. The Hellbringer was alright, but even before PSR reset it just didn't seem to be as good as everyone was raving about. Not compared to various forms of dakka or extremely low exposure weapons mounted on quick builds (srms, mpls).

What D A T A says makes absolute logical sense, and it's useless to debate with him whether or not what he said "feels" right, because "feels" doesn't come into the discussion. What we have in this thread is one person trying to give an objective, informed statement of fact, and a lot of other people arguing from their hearts. The two forms of argument are incompatible, and a logical approach naturally comes off as cold and uncaring *because it is*.

As for whether or not PGI should follow the advice of comp players, who make up such a small minority of the playerbase, perhaps their idea of balance is perfect but not as "fun" as it could be. But with that said, why not give an attempt at perfect balance a try? Other approaches appear to have failed.