102 replies to this topic

[w0qj]

May I propose MWO/PGI hiring both DATA, Miss Greene, and Yondu Udonta for game balancing passes

(I'm serious--anyone wish to second this proposal?)

Mech Walesa, on 03 March 2021 - 04:19 AM, said:

you either make a competitive game and listen to ppl like DATA or you make a game for casuals and don't listen to anyone as a developer.
it the last mmo i played (elder scrolls online-zenimax) they catered to the casuals but actually hired a player like DATA that was doing detailed analisys of every skill after every patch.
imho if you want a balanced game then you need to listen to the 1% and mute the rest.

i'm sorry 6th. neither mine or your oppinion on balance should not matter. at all.

[Edit] Added Yondu Udonta [/Edit]

Edited by w0qj, 03 March 2021 - 08:32 AM.

[D A T A]

All comp players want these days is a game where every weapon combo has a role, has a meaning, has a purpose, can be played. Unfortunatelly all of these weapons can coexist without stepping on each other toes only in a tiny spot of equilibrium that needs extreme knowledge and competence to be found.
The level of competence required to find this equilibrium is so high that 99% of the tier 1 players can't find it, even though a good 50% of tier 1 players managed to finally understand that clan lasers and gausses have been overnerfed into the ground and need a buff, that agility nerfs have gone too far, especially accel decel and pitch, and that some lights can't have more armor than some heavies

Edited by D A T A, 03 March 2021 - 11:26 AM.

[Wildstreak]

w0qj, on 03 March 2021 - 08:14 AM, said:

May I propose MWO/PGI hiring both DATA, Miss Greene, and Yondu Udonta for game balancing passes

(I'm serious--anyone wish to second this proposal?)

Based on what 2 have posted, no, third not in this topic and not seen posts by.

[The6thMessenger]

D A T A, on 03 March 2021 - 11:21 AM, said:

All comp players want these days is a game where every weapon combo has a role, has a meaning, has a purpose, can be played. Unfortunatelly all of these weapons can coexist without stepping on each other toes only in a tiny spot of equilibrium that needs extreme knowledge and competence to be found.
The level of competence required to find this equilibrium is so high that 99% of the tier 1 players can't find it, even though a good 50% of tier 1 players managed to finally understand that clan lasers and gausses have been overnerfed into the ground and need a buff, that agility nerfs have gone too far, especially accel decel and pitch, and that some lights can't have more armor than some heavies

I agree, I really do. I think the problem stems from the translation of BT into FP with lots of weapons, and those weapons can be combined with other weapons even not intended with one another -- that BT was meant to be bracket-built. Yeah we balance by builds, but that just means one build may triumph another, seems like an inevitability that we get one mech out performed consistently, there will be always that one or two mechs that are the meta -- because comp people like to win.

But my concern is that you can't just silence the majority, sure they aren't a good source for specific numbers, but the game and experience is for them, and so to keep them interested the game must be catered to them. I think when the "rabble" speaks up, it's not about the balance, but what experience they want to have. That sets the direction, but we don't have to refer to their specifics in balancing. Listening to the majority allows the developer to give them what they want, and to keep playing the game. PGI is just simply too inept for that.

This is not coming from a balance perspective, but design perspective. Yeah, you can theoretically balance EVERYTHING by only listening to the comps, but without something like a noob-tube, it's going to be hard getting into the game on their own.

Hell we're about to get tutorial videos for newbies to play the game because it's an environment of veterans that churns newbies. Why though? Why can't the game just be designed to be understood gradually through playing it?

Why are we giving people homework? Whyyyy?

Spoiler

You have to understand that games are ultimately a business, they aren't your friend and if anything, you're their b*tch. You see there's tricks in the game that is beyond just balance. By listening to the majority, they can learn what to give them so they can keep spending and playing -- to keep being their b*tch.

PGI is just sadly, bad at it. I hope PGI just surrenders the BattleTech license to Valve.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 04 March 2021 - 02:12 PM.

[Valdarion Silarius]

The6thMessenger, on 04 March 2021 - 01:51 PM, said:

PGI is just sadly, bad at it. I hope PGI just surrenders the BattleTech license to Valve.

Holy crap, I really hope I'm reading that last sentence as sarcasm. The last thing I want to see is Value get their hands on the Battletech license so that the game will be shelved indefinitely collecting dust in the corner with Half Life 3. Guaranteed that will be the final nail in the coffin for any hopes of a new Battletech game.

[The6thMessenger]

Arnold The Governator, on 04 March 2021 - 07:54 PM, said:

Holy crap, I really hope I'm reading that last sentence as sarcasm. The last thing I want to see is Value get their hands on the Battletech license so that the game will be shelved indefinitely collecting dust in the corner with Half Life 3. Guaranteed that will be the final nail in the coffin for any hopes of a new Battletech game.

Half-Life, for all of the delays, always had lives up to Valve's standard, their Half-Life releases has been nothing but success and critical acclaim. The thing with Half-Life is that it's their testbed of new technology, showcasing what they can do, and often they get it right. I don't think you should be treating BattleTech as if it's Half-Life, it ain't.

[Cherge]

I feel like they are the weapon that is correctly designed and implemented, where it has its positives as well as its negatives

But because OP weapons exist, C-ERML cannot.

[FupDup]

The6thMessenger, on 04 March 2021 - 08:13 PM, said:

Half-Life, for all of the delays, always had lives up to Valve's standard, their Half-Life releases has been nothing but success and critical acclaim. The thing with Half-Life is that it's their testbed of new technology, showcasing what they can do, and often they get it right. I don't think you should be treating BattleTech as if it's Half-Life, it ain't.

The problem is that Valve would never make a Mechwarrior game because the franchise is already at 5 titles and Valve can't count to 3.

[The6thMessenger]

FupDup, on 05 March 2021 - 03:28 PM, said:

The problem is that Valve would never make a Mechwarrior game because the franchise is already at 5 titles and Valve can't count to 3.

Lol. 1... 2... 5... --- 3 sir -- 3!



Valve will totally blow the Holy Hand Grenade on their faces.

[JudauAshta]

clanner er ML are meh until you boat like 7+ of them, then they become decent not great just decent.

also heavy lasers are way too hot...
besides large heavy i dont bother with them

Edited by JudauAshta, 27 February 2022 - 06:46 PM.

[katoult]

D A T A, on 01 March 2021 - 03:14 AM, said:

Not a single decent player, not a single decent unit has ever used clan laser vomits or clan laser gauss since the laser damage overnerf ******** in september 2017

Mmm, i'm fairly sure i saw MagicPainGlove drive a lasvom Gargoyle build provided by GeeRam yesterday to good effect.

So, you're basically trashing Cauldron and your own unit there?

[Vxheous]

JudauAshta, on 27 February 2022 - 06:46 PM, said:

clanner er ML are meh until you boat like 7+ of them, then they become decent not great just decent.

also heavy lasers are way too hot...
besides large heavy i dont bother with them

Clan lasers are great, and clans can boat a ton of heatsinks to compensate for the higher heat. Also....ERML isn't good until you break ghost heat?

katoult, on 28 February 2022 - 01:06 AM, said:

Mmm, i'm fairly sure i saw MagicPainGlove drive a lasvom Gargoyle build provided by GeeRam yesterday to good effect.

So, you're basically trashing Cauldron and your own unit there?

This is a thread from over a year ago that someone seems to have resurrected yesterday.....There's been a ton of laser changes since D A T A said that back in March of 2021...

Edited by Vxheous, 28 February 2022 - 01:20 AM.

[JudauAshta]

Vxheous, on 28 February 2022 - 01:16 AM, said:

Clan lasers are great, and clans can boat a ton of heatsinks to compensate for the higher heat. Also....ERML isn't good until you break ghost heat?



This is a thread from over a year ago that someone seems to have resurrected yesterday.....There's been a ton of laser changes since D A T A said that back in March of 2021...

ghost heat??
most players fire them after small delay to avoid that.... cm on bra you already know this, stop trolling

you expect me to believe a tier 1 player who has been a former world champ twice doesn't know about chain fire/delay fire to avoid ghost heat????

erML are meh by themselves unless boated or used in conjunction with heavier weapons.

Edited by JudauAshta, 02 March 2022 - 02:30 AM.

[Curccu]

JudauAshta, on 02 March 2022 - 02:05 AM, said:

ghost heat??
most players fire them after small delay to avoid that.... cm on bra you already know this, stop trolling

you expect me to believe a tier 1 player who has been a former world champ twice doesn't know about chain fire/delay fire to avoid ghost heat????

erML are meh by themselves unless boated or used in conjunction with heavier weapons.

Former world champ and any other good player also knows not to stagger fire their alpha because that is great way to get loads of damage to your own face in trading situations. Works fine is opponents are not shooting back, not that well if they are shooting back.

[INSANITARY SPLATKINS]

JudauAshta, on 02 March 2022 - 02:05 AM, said:

ghost heat??
most players fire them after small delay to avoid that.... cm on bra you already know this, stop trolling

you expect me to believe a tier 1 player who has been a former world champ twice doesn't know about chain fire/delay fire to avoid ghost heat????

erML are meh by themselves unless boated or used in conjunction with heavier weapons.

Chainfire bad except under some rare circumstances.

If you go by what he was commenting on, which was not good until seven, you'd have a weird combo of 3+4, 6+1 etc which considering their burn time is bad.

[Captain Caveman DE]

if only reading something like a date wasn't so pretty darn hard..

[1453 R]

JudauAshta, on 02 March 2022 - 02:05 AM, said:

ghost heat??
most players fire them after small delay to avoid that.... cm on bra you already know this, stop trolling

you expect me to believe a tier 1 player who has been a former world champ twice doesn't know about chain fire/delay fire to avoid ghost heat????

erML are meh by themselves unless boated or used in conjunction with heavier weapons.

Tier 1 players who're two-time former world champions do everything in their power to minimize the amount of time they spend facing their target/enemy. It's why all the toppy-compy laser builds are pulse laser-based - every last single thing they can do to reduce burntime and get their damage out is beneficial. It leads to more focused damage where the Ultracomp wants it and to suffering less coring. There's a reason comps haven't touched heavy lasers since the introduction of heavy lasers despite their outrageous DPT figures.

Chainfire is a meme anywhere but the Mosh Pit. Chain-firing however many ERML you happen to have at somebody who's looking at you with peeps or large pulse lasers or, gods save you, a heavy brace of autocannons will get you turned into modern art in short order. MechWarrior is a game of sucker punches - you angle for the chance to deliver yours and minimize the enemy's ability to deliver theirs. Taking a straight trade is for idjits or people who're already winning.

[Weeny Machine]

Y E O N N E, on 02 March 2021 - 10:09 PM, said:

You are mistaking learned apathy for arrogance. Too many times have players at the top attempted to show others how to win, only to be derided as "meta comp tryhards" as if that was some kind of insult by people who ignore the advice and proceed to do the most absolute moronic sh*t known to man in the game and still have the gall to complain about this or that being OP.

I studied linguistics and you obviously cannot judge if this is just hubris or giving advice. Read some literature on it and get better.


So, if you didn't like what I wrote, I can assure you, this is the behaviour and "argumentation skill" this certain person displays in several posts.

And yes, I truly studied linguistics and can tell you that even basic Pragmatics taken from Grice show that he infringed maxims of communication and what kind of implicatures you can derive from that.
To make it short: if you want to convince people, you do that by presenting a well structured argument and not ride in on your high horse and flap your epeen wildly around. This simply comes across as being arrogant. If he isn't that way, he direly needs to work on his communication skills.

As for defending this obviously bad behaviour...sorry, that is beyond me.

Edited by Weeny Machine, 02 March 2022 - 10:20 AM.

[INSANITARY SPLATKINS]

Weeny Machine, on 02 March 2022 - 10:14 AM, said:

I studied linguistics and you obviously cannot judge if this is just hubris or giving advice. Read some literature on it and get better.


So, if you didn't like what I wrote, I can assure you, this is the behaviour and "argumentation skill" this certain person displays in several posts.

And yes, I truly studied linguistics and can tell you that even basic Pragmatics taken from Grice show that he infringed maxims of communication and what kind of implicatures you can derive from that.
To make it short: if you want to convince people, you do that by presenting a well structured argument and not ride in on your high horse and flap your epeen wildly around. This simply comes across as being arrogant. If he isn't that way, he direly needs to work on his communication skills.

As for defending this obviously bad behaviour...sorry, that is beyond me.

I haven't studied linguistics but I can certainly see when someone is acting indignant and offended and in the context of the internet and it's communication this definitely looks like a case of what we call in the non scientific world as being offended by the personality and not able to ingest the message being given.

It is time people in your alleged profession start teaching a course on 'how not to get offended by what people type out on the internet'.

[PocketYoda]

They are bad because of the clan meta alpha mindset.. The whole alpha then wait alpha etc is whats destroying the weapons and game play..

Of course its getting nerfed..