64 replies to this topic

[The Velociraptor]

Pumb for greater attention.

[Noth]

They recently commented on mech trees on Kotaku. They flat out said they wanted flexibility rather than pigeon holing. Once teh pilot trees are fleshed out more with modules it will allow flexibility while making you have to make choices on what modules you want to run.

[Goose Igaly]

I must politely disagree with the OP on this matter. I find that the game is about flexibility and changing style to fit the situation. This applies to mechs in that by expanding the number of varients you play, your experience with them and your ability to play them increases.

Take for example the group I normally run with. We each have our favored loadout/varient. We roll for a while in this manner, each complimeting each other's loadout so that major weaknesses in our formation are covered. Then, one of us decides that we want to shake things up a bit by switching from a brawler to a range; the rest of us make changes to our varient choice to rebalance things and move on.

By requiring that you unlock 3 separate mech varients to get to the next tier helps to "encourage" players to expand their playstyle, learn to work with other loadouts, and gives them the ability to work around and with the loadouts of their team members. Yes, I know that not everyone is running with teammates, but isn't that the end goal? To be running with your team members more often that not?

Assuming not, you will always find that a certain strategy comes and goes. We are seeing it heavily with the LRMs at the moment. Artemis kicked in, LRM boats flourished. What did my group do? We ran varients that toated LRMs and AMS, with my mech being an Atlas along with one other Atlas in the group both running 2 AMS each. LRMs got nerfed, now we're back to our single AMS brawlers. Even as the game balances begin to swing less and less severely, you may begin to find that one week Jenners are the flavor of the week, followed by Awesomes the next. Having already needed to purchase different mechs with differing hardpoints, you are in a position to deal with these ebs and flows.

[Kalthios]

Biggest problem I have is having to buy three variants of a chassis. This is just too big of an investment. If I only had to buy one mech to max out the mech tree I would already have bought several mechs (DRG-5N, CPLT-K2, HBK-4G, AS7-D, COM-1B, CN9-AL), but I have to buy three of each variant to master each variant, that's so many mechs, most of which are very similar!

Edited by Kalthios, 09 November 2012 - 07:38 AM.

[Purlana]

Goose Igaly, on 09 November 2012 - 07:36 AM, said:

I must politely disagree with the OP on this matter. I find that the game is about flexibility and changing style to fit the situation. This applies to mechs in that by expanding the number of varients you play, your experience with them and your ability to play them increases.

Take for example the group I normally run with. We each have our favored loadout/varient. We roll for a while in this manner, each complimeting each other's loadout so that major weaknesses in our formation are covered. Then, one of us decides that we want to shake things up a bit by switching from a brawler to a range; the rest of us make changes to our varient choice to rebalance things and move on.

By requiring that you unlock 3 separate mech varients to get to the next tier helps to "encourage" players to expand their playstyle, learn to work with other loadouts, and gives them the ability to work around and with the loadouts of their team members. Yes, I know that not everyone is running with teammates, but isn't that the end goal? To be running with your team members more often that not?

My concern is what the clan mechs? They use Omni technology so why would I have to grind 3 variants?

Edited by Purlana, 09 November 2012 - 07:42 AM.

[Sorho]

I can only agree with this post, having to buy and fill out xp slots for 3 different variants just to get to the elite tier is neither fun nor justified, it is merely a mechanism to increase grind and make spending cash on standard mechs and bay unlocks more appealing.

I'm all for PGI making money, but this just strikes me as something that will drive people away rather than hook them in.

[PeRRaKo]

Goose Igaly, on 09 November 2012 - 07:36 AM, said:

I must politely disagree with the OP on this matter. I find that the game is about flexibility and changing style to fit the situation. This applies to mechs in that by expanding the number of varients you play, your experience with them and your ability to play them increases.

Take for example the group I normally run with. We each have our favored loadout/varient. We roll for a while in this manner, each complimeting each other's loadout so that major weaknesses in our formation are covered. Then, one of us decides that we want to shake things up a bit by switching from a brawler to a range; the rest of us make changes to our varient choice to rebalance things and move on.

By requiring that you unlock 3 separate mech varients to get to the next tier helps to "encourage" players to expand their playstyle, learn to work with other loadouts, and gives them the ability to work around and with the loadouts of their team members. Yes, I know that not everyone is running with teammates, but isn't that the end goal? To be running with your team members more often that not?

Assuming not, you will always find that a certain strategy comes and goes. We are seeing it heavily with the LRMs at the moment. Artemis kicked in, LRM boats flourished. What did my group do? We ran varients that toated LRMs and AMS, with my mech being an Atlas along with one other Atlas in the group both running 2 AMS each. LRMs got nerfed, now we're back to our single AMS brawlers. Even as the game balances begin to swing less and less severely, you may begin to find that one week Jenners are the flavor of the week, followed by Awesomes the next. Having already needed to purchase different mechs with differing hardpoints, you are in a position to deal with these ebs and flows.

I see your point but wouldn't it be more "diverse" to be able to have a Jenner scout mech, a Catapult support mech, a Hunchback brawler mech and an Awesome sniper mech, all maxed out in skills without having to grind all that exp in variants you are not going to use?

I mean, I like to play with different loadouts, try different mechs every now and then. What I don't like is to be forced to grind my *** off in variants I will most certainly delete from my mechlab once I'm done unlocking skill trees.

[MacKoga]

Here is the tree I want:

• All unlockable tweaks have trade-offs. (ex., tweaking gyros to allow faster turns, but worse knockdown resistence).
  
• All tweaks can be toggled ON or OFF, once they have been unlocked.
  
• In grand total, the tweaks aren't inherently better over all, just specializes a mech's performance advantages and disadvantages to favor the play style the pilot wants for that match.
  
• Raw piloting ability and tactics should as always be the biggest factor for victory.

[Goose Igaly]

I am new to the Mech Warrior world. Got into the Closed Beta as my first experience with the game, along with 4 other buddies with similar experience. As far as Clan Tech, I suppose it's possible that we'd have to grind through that as well. But I do feel that the grind is needed. I'm a big player of another MMO (*cough* i'm a restoration druid *cough*) and understand that grinds are necessary. Imagine if everyone could max their stuff in too short a time; what would be the point of playing? More kills? More Wins? I can dig it, but what's the big goal on the horizon? I'm stepping a bit out of the mech tree when speaking of goals on the horizon, looking forward to a new engine, a new weapon loadout, risk of investing to test a loadout to have it succeed or fail.

All in all, the grind times aren't bad, though. On any given match I win I pull in anywhere between 800 and 1300 experience. I run with a group, so we win far more often than we lose. Been playing hard for the past week and am closing in on the final Elite unlocks on my third Atlas varient.

[Purlana]

Goose Igaly, on 09 November 2012 - 07:56 AM, said:

I am new to the Mech Warrior world. Got into the Closed Beta as my first experience with the game, along with 4 other buddies with similar experience. As far as Clan Tech, I suppose it's possible that we'd have to grind through that as well. But I do feel that the grind is needed.

But clan mechs varients are different from IS varients. You don't need to buy a WHM-6R, if you have a WHM-6X.

You simply switch out the pods...

Edited by Purlana, 09 November 2012 - 08:01 AM.

[Wildraubtier]

My 2 C-bills

I think the entire system needs to be replaced. As it is now, you have to grind two things, mech xp and c-bills. Get rid of mech xp and replace it with a card system .
Here is how the card system will work. It will be similar to Mechwarrior Tactics.

First of all, each mech starts off with a basic card that describes the basic skills it has, for example a Raven 3L will get an InfoWarrior card which gives bonuses to BAP and ECM,which can be switched out for a different card.

The Raven 3L will also have slots for Offense,Defense and Utility. Each of these slots , when filled, grant a benefit listed on the card, for example a utility card called Cool Running that grants 7.5% extra heat dissipation and increased heat threshold.

These "benefits" are balanced with the cards also granting "deficit" ,for example reducing the torso twist rate, weakened heat dissipation, or reduced BAP effictiveness .

These cards comes in common,uncommon,rare and very rare variants that have extra benefits and deficits. These cards are granted on a win, with the common and uncommon being a majority of the cards earned. Along with this , players can purchase themed booster packs for MC, for example the Winter Soldier card pack which provides cards for buffing heat dissipation and generation.

These cards can then be traded or sold to other players, perhaps in a marketplace window.

So basically, the mech customization can be augmented with this "collectible card game" mechanic, similar to Magic The Gathering while at the same time getting rid of Mech xp, while still allowing pilot xp if the pilot skill tree is unique.

As an aside, I also think that Battletech manufacturers should be included into the current gear system, with different manufacturers producing slightly different weapons,gear and ammo.

[MacKoga]

Goose Igaly, on 09 November 2012 - 07:56 AM, said:

Imagine if everyone could max their stuff in too short a time; what would be the point of playing? More kills? More Wins? I can dig it, but what's the big goal on the horizon?

Ideally the Community Warfare concepts of the game will address this.

Also, in terms of personal improvements, I am under the impression that rare lostech, clan parts, new inner sphere technologies will start to trickle in, so grind can still have benefits, and there will be new things to do.

[Grabes]

*sigh* This is never going to stop is it?

Read v e r y s l o w l y o k ?

Having to buy three variants and play them for the minimal amount of time is a extender of life. The reason you don't like it is because it is obvious.

You know what other game that uses this idea of a extension? World of Tanks.

Difference? - the tank itself is maxed out easily, your crew is not.

So you can play the tank you like but have to grind out your crew.

It is a very painful grind once you realize your only half way through the second skill.

This game? The setup they have? Sooooo easier of a grind. Having to play three variants may seem like a huge issue, but when you realize most of them are nearly identical.... It's just a swap of weapons and your done. The only big changes is when you ffrom jj's to no jj's. or massive missle hardpoints to only lasers.... Really, you guys are just complaining to complain. Every game has to have some sort of play value. This is this one's.

[Goose Igaly]

Wildraubtier, on 09 November 2012 - 08:02 AM, said:

My 2 C-bills

I think the entire system needs to be replaced. As it is now, you have to grind two things, mech xp and c-bills. Get rid of mech xp and replace it with a card system .
Here is how the card system will work. It will be similar to Mechwarrior Tactics.

First of all, each mech starts off with a basic card that describes the basic skills it has, for example a Raven 3L will get an InfoWarrior card which gives bonuses to BAP and ECM,which can be switched out for a different card.

The Raven 3L will also have slots for Offense,Defense and Utility. Each of these slots , when filled, grant a benefit listed on the card, for example a utility card called Cool Running that grants 7.5% extra heat dissipation and increased heat threshold.

These "benefits" are balanced with the cards also granting "deficit" ,for example reducing the torso twist rate, weakened heat dissipation, or reduced BAP effictiveness .

These cards comes in common,uncommon,rare and very rare variants that have extra benefits and deficits. These cards are granted on a win, with the common and uncommon being a majority of the cards earned. Along with this , players can purchase themed booster packs for MC, for example the Winter Soldier card pack which provides cards for buffing heat dissipation and generation.

These cards can then be traded or sold to other players, perhaps in a marketplace window.

So basically, the mech customization can be augmented with this "collectible card game" mechanic, similar to Magic The Gathering while at the same time getting rid of Mech xp, while still allowing pilot xp if the pilot skill tree is unique.

As an aside, I also think that Battletech manufacturers should be included into the current gear system, with different manufacturers producing slightly different weapons,gear and ammo.

Two things that would be fought there:

1) You're still grinding away trying to find those cards. I have played games (Like Dynasty Warriors 4, terrible analogy, i know) where weapon upgrades were dropped in world as a chance and not finding the good upgrades until the last few encounters of the game. I'm afraid this could lead to even more prolonged grinds.

2) Auction house prices. Rolling founder mechs I never really hurt for cash, but I feel for my non-founder buddies who don't have the founders. They've been grinding for a week just to get the few million bills they need to get their mech where they want it. I'd have to have to tell them they're going to have to grind more cash to buy "skills". They're unlocking their efficiencies just fine as it.

I don't really see that the system is broke. As we all know, "Don't fix what ain't broke."

I'm loving the constructive chat in this thread as opposed to some other threads I've browsed.

[MacKoga]

Wildraubtier, on 09 November 2012 - 08:02 AM, said:

Get rid of mech xp and replace it with a card system ...

This could be a great system, but only so long as the "cards" were instead described as mod kits, specialty equipment, jury-rigged special parts, etc. I.e. something that could plausibly be in-game and would have a reason for why it could be tradded, swapped in or out, etc. It would feel weird otherwise.

Wildraubtier, on 09 November 2012 - 08:02 AM, said:

As an aside, I also think that Battletech manufacturers should be included into the current gear system, with different manufacturers producing slightly different weapons,gear and ammo.

Agreed. This could even be a part of what the nature of different battlemech tweaking options come from, which would make the whole thing more fun.

[Orzorn]

Just playing devil's advocate here:
Having the same bonuses for every mech and mech variant is adventageous because it means there is zero chance that one mech has a better/overpowered tree compared to another mech.

Of course, this isn't totally true. The arm bonuses, for example, are useless for the Cicada, which has no (usable) arms on most of its variants.

Overall, yes, I agree with the ideas, but there are some advantages to the current system that will be difficult for a unique system to overcome.

MacKoga, on 09 November 2012 - 08:13 AM, said:

Agreed. This could even be a part of what the nature of different battlemech tweaking options come from, which would make the whole thing more fun.

I don't think we'll see such a system until community warfare. Those parts would come from planets you capture, so every player and merc corp would be using different parts because they've all interacted, for the most part, with different manufacturers on different planets. It would really alter how each corp battles.

[Wildraubtier]

Goose Igaly, on 09 November 2012 - 08:11 AM, said:

Two things that would be fought there:

1) You're still grinding away trying to find those cards. I have played games (Like Dynasty Warriors 4, terrible analogy, i know) where weapon upgrades were dropped in world as a chance and not finding the good upgrades until the last few encounters of the game. I'm afraid this could lead to even more prolonged grinds.

2) Auction house prices. Rolling founder mechs I never really hurt for cash, but I feel for my non-founder buddies who don't have the founders. They've been grinding for a week just to get the few million bills they need to get their mech where they want it. I'd have to have to tell them they're going to have to grind more cash to buy "skills". They're unlocking their efficiencies just fine as it.

I don't really see that the system is broke. As we all know, "Don't fix what ain't broke."

I'm loving the constructive chat in this thread as opposed to some other threads I've browsed.

One of the reasons I thought the "card" system is better is that you are no longer confined to the same efficiencies as every single chassis and variant. Right now, the Raven (my favorite mech if anyone asks) has the same efficiency upgrades as the Jenner and the Commando. There is no reason for this since each one of them is built up for different purposes. Some kind of mod/card system would make customization more rewarding because now you can choose exactly what upgrades you want on your mech, instead of fielding all the same efficiencies as everyone else.

[Goose Igaly]

Wild, what if just efficiencies that do not apply to that chasis are replaced with a relevant efficiency. For those peaking in, I'm not talking "Oh, this is not relevant because I don't like it." A strong point made that not all mechs have arms to receive the bonus. Could, then, that talent be replaced with an appropriate talent? Cats have ears; what could be done to the ears of similar benefit to the arm bonus.

A quick note, under this model if a mech has a hardpoint on either arm, the talent would remain unchanged.

[Djarid]

IMO, the current system makes a kind of sense but is counter-intuitive and I can see why it looks just like a cash sink.

The experience in a particular chassis equates to getting that little extra out of it.
Elite skills come from having mastered different variants of the chassis and so having a better understanding of its strengths and weaknesses.

That said, if you save up for COM-2D before getting any other commando variants then it does seem ridiculous to have to buy a COM-1A just to be able to complete the set and earn the Elite skills.

Unfortunately I have no suggestions on how to improve things

[VictimEN]

The mech skills and modules so far are pretty bland IMO. Plus the pilot tree unlocks cost a ton and barely do anything. OTOH, that's kind of a blessing at this point, because you can skip the master skill for +1 module slot and not actually miss anything.

However, the need to buy 3 versions of a mech does not seem that bad. I'm a free player that didn't even start the open beta right away, and I've already bought 3 Jenners and Catapult. The grind to get stuff doesn't seem arduous at all. Think about getting to level 30 in LoL, buying a champ, runepage and runes to suit them. Even if you mostly play on your first win, there's still way more "grinding" involved there than it takes to buy and upgrade a mech.

The one thing about the need for 3 variants that really annoys me is the extremely limited number of mech slots. With only 4 free slots, it will really suck to have multiple mechs in the same role to work on their skills, especially once you already have several permanent mechs you've leveled up.