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Coring An Atlas In 3 Seconds Or Less


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#1 Sadato

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 04:56 AM

Following the issues surrounding Double Heat Sinks, and Garth's famous statement regarding his Jenner, it got me thinking about several things regarding weapon balance for lasers.

Firstly, a relatively large portion of the forum community have expressed their reasoning's and musings over the heat scale and how several weapons in the game are quite unbalanced with respect to having their fire rates increased and no comparable reduction in heat and/or damage, although this seems to be being slowly addressed.

Secondly, DHS, even in their full 0.2 HPS implementation would be unlikely to be the be all, end all cure for several of these weapons due to their considerably higher heat generation (Large Pulse Laser, PPC, ERPPC, AC20)

Now, granted that some of these high heat weapons are seeing more use now with DHS, the increased dissipation has caused us to see exceptional and excessive use of the smaller lower heat weapons due to their efficiency allowing them to be fired more often, yet they retain quite high alpha strike potential when used in large numbers.

One weapon that is definitely seeing a lot more screen time, is the Medium Pulse Laser.

It occurred to me that you can fit a Jenner with 6 of these (albeit with a 250XL Engine) and although you can only alpha two or three times before you overheat, your first alpha could remove all the armour from the centre rear torso, with 8 points of damage (excluding crits) being dealt to the internals.

As there is around 54 points of internal remaining, your second Alpha won't quite core it, unless you start taking crits into account and suddenly 6 hits on internals, each potentially dealing up to 18 damage, could very quickly polish off that Assault that was too slow to turn after the first volley.

(PLEASE NOTE: IT IS CURRENTLY UNCONFIRMED WHETHER CRITICAL DAMAGE IS DEALT TO THE ENGINE)

Garth's Jenner doesn't seem so implausible now does it?

So, one Atlas cored in 4.5 seconds means nerf Double Heat Sinks or Medium Pulse Lasers right?

Well.... not quite.

DHS being nerfed still hurts heavies and assaults more than it does lights and mediums, so it's best to leave them at full capacity to level the playing field.

Small Lasers, Small Pulse Lasers, Medium Lasers and Medium Pulse Lasers have already been nerfed once as PGI increased their heat values by one point each as they were deemed too powerful early on in beta.

But, was this due to the heat generation equations for the Small Laser and all Pulse lasers being incorrect causing them to run cooler than intended?

So, now with these lasers back to their correct heat levels, was the original nerf in early beta warranted?

Yes and no.

At Table Top Values, these smaller laser weapons had incredible damage to ton and good damage to heat ratio's, and although they do have limited range, distance to target is not as punishing as in tabletop, so a nerf was not unwarranted to make these weapons balanced.

However I still think that the balancing was done incorrectly.

My Proposal

What (I believe) should have happened instead, was for their damage values to be reduced by one point each.

Currently, they are this:

Weapon......Heat.......Damage

Sml Las...........2..............3

Smlpls Las......3..............3

Med Las..........4..............5

Medpls Las......5..............6


Tabletop Values are this:

Weapon........Heat........Damage

Sml Las............1..............3

Smlpls Las........2..............3

Med Las............3.............5

Medpls Las.......4..............6


My proposal would make them as follows:

Weapon.........Heat.....Damage

Sml Las...............1............2

Smlpls Las...........2............2 (possibly 2.25 to stop it being so useless)

Med Las...............3............4

Medpls Las..........4............5



Balancing them in this way has several effects.

1. Reduces the "laserboat" alpha strike capability to a more manageable and balanced level.

2. Reduces DPS, but increases efficiency, meaning they will retain a high damage output due to the lower heat which allows prolonged firing.

3. Makes these weapons easier to heat manage.

Point 1 helps to address Garth's Jenner and other energy alpha builds where the damage was just too high from one alpha strike, such as the HBK-4P although, in the case of the Medium Pulse Laser, it doesn't solve it completely.

Point 2 also has the hidden benefit of rewarding the skilful. Being able to get more shots off before overheating still equals a higher damage output if you have a steady aim.

Point 3 is probably the most important, as a large number (if not all) of the stock variants are now cooler and less punishing for new players who are learning the game and are having to use Trial Mechs.

TL:DR

The Small, Small Pulse, Medium, and Medium Pulse lasers do too much damage for their weight and they are also too hot for new players to manage well.

Reduce heat AND damage by one point each to balance them out and make them easier to manage.


And so we reach the most important part.... What are your opinions and thoughts?

Edited by Sadato, 19 November 2012 - 09:39 AM.


#2 MWHawke

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 05:00 AM

Umm.. why start another post on DHS and lasers?

#3 Ghosth

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 05:06 AM

That was actually well said, and I agree with you.

If you try to balance weapons using only heat, you end up with the system broken as it is now.

You need to balance heat and then as suggested above, rebalance smaller weapons to keep them in check.

#4 Sadato

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 05:06 AM

Because it's more specific and only relates to a handful of weapons. I appreciate the bump but actual feedback would have been preferred.

(response was to first poster btw)

Edited by Sadato, 19 November 2012 - 05:08 AM.


#5 Rifter

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 05:14 AM

Garth made that statement not paul, was in my thread linked below

http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__1362549

#6 Sadato

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 05:22 AM

View PostRifter, on 19 November 2012 - 05:14 AM, said:

Garth made that statement not paul, was in my thread linked below

http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__1362549


Balls.... Thanks for the correction!

#7 Lanessar

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 05:27 AM

...and was quickly debunked. I agree with the OP's assessment.

The dumb thing was that this was theoretically possible (granted a stationary, dumb-as-a-box-of-rocks target) with SHS, let alone DHS, so bringing that up as an analogy was rather silly.

I concur with the OP; however, I also am of the scorched earth tactic on weapon damage - weapon heat- rate of fire. It needs to be re-worked, and not from TT values. Or if you do use TT values, USE TT VALUES against ROF increase.

#8 Sadato

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 05:37 AM

View PostLanessar, on 19 November 2012 - 05:27 AM, said:

...and was quickly debunked. I agree with the OP's assessment.

The dumb thing was that this was theoretically possible (granted a stationary, dumb-as-a-box-of-rocks target) with SHS, let alone DHS, so bringing that up as an analogy was rather silly.

I concur with the OP; however, I also am of the scorched earth tactic on weapon damage - weapon heat- rate of fire. It needs to be re-worked, and not from TT values. Or if you do use TT values, USE TT VALUES against ROF increase.



You are totally correct, and I was just referencing TT values as a baseline, because that is the current system in place.

The overall idea is to balance the game. Final numbers be damned.

#9 Sayyid

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 05:39 AM

The TT a Jenner if it gets behind an AS7-D can destroy it in a couple of turns. Oddly enough the same number of volleys as in MWO. A stock JR7-D does 20pts of damage from its lasers alone and an additional 8 from the SRM. The rear armor on an AS7 is less than that. Granted the damage is often spread out by the hit charts, but if you were to remove that or have all the weapons hit in one area you would run into the issue you have now in MWO.

So nerfing lasers isnt the answer, and neither is doubling the armor. The answer is TEAMWORK. If you have a light like a Commando, or a Raven, or even a medium mech stay near the Assault mech to cover it you wont run into this issue.

You know there is a reason the military, EVERY military, around the world have teams, squads, platoons, companies, battallions etc. Even in the wide world of Battletech there are LANCES, which are units of 4 mechs, and are the smallest meneuver element in Battletech. So if you have a team of 8, well form into lances of 4, usually in close speed relation to each other, and cover each others blind spots. You would be surprised the amount of kills I have racked up just hanging back in a HBK-4G waiting on some poor light or cicada to run behind an assault or missile boat.

#10 Grokmoo

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 05:48 AM

The whole "3 seconds" statement was clearly hyperbole. It is insane how people have taken that literally.

#11 Sadato

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 05:49 AM

View PostSayyid, on 19 November 2012 - 05:39 AM, said:

The TT a Jenner if it gets behind an AS7-D can destroy it in a couple of turns. Oddly enough the same number of volleys as in MWO. A stock JR7-D does 20pts of damage from its lasers alone and an additional 8 from the SRM. The rear armor on an AS7 is less than that. Granted the damage is often spread out by the hit charts, but if you were to remove that or have all the weapons hit in one area you would run into the issue you have now in MWO.

So nerfing lasers isnt the answer, and neither is doubling the armor. The answer is TEAMWORK. If you have a light like a Commando, or a Raven, or even a medium mech stay near the Assault mech to cover it you wont run into this issue.

You know there is a reason the military, EVERY military, around the world have teams, squads, platoons, companies, battallions etc. Even in the wide world of Battletech there are LANCES, which are units of 4 mechs, and are the smallest meneuver element in Battletech. So if you have a team of 8, well form into lances of 4, usually in close speed relation to each other, and cover each others blind spots. You would be surprised the amount of kills I have racked up just hanging back in a HBK-4G waiting on some poor light or cicada to run behind an assault or missile boat.


This is exactly my point, with the additional point of that because of the lack of spread, the smaller lasers became too powerful.

I dont want them to nerf lasers again, however I feel that the wrong value was chosen to be adjusted.

#12 Vassago Rain

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 05:51 AM

View PostSadato, on 19 November 2012 - 05:49 AM, said:

This is exactly my point, with the additional point of that because of the lack of spread, the smaller lasers became too powerful.

I dont want them to nerf lasers again, however I feel that the wrong value was chosen to be adjusted.


He's a PR person working for the company, and that was supposedly their best way to disarm the situation.
'guys, I can totally, like, kill this stationary fatlas in 3 seconds, so no proper dubs for you!'

Edited by Vassago Rain, 19 November 2012 - 05:57 AM.


#13 Sadato

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 05:54 AM

View PostGrokmoo, on 19 November 2012 - 05:48 AM, said:

The whole "3 seconds" statement was clearly hyperbole. It is insane how people have taken that literally.


This is very true, and my post is a possible example of how to achieve said statement in a theoretical situation.

Still points out the fact that some weapons are not balanced.

#14 Sayyid

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 06:02 AM

I sat back last night in my Commando and watched how many assaults, heavies and even mediums that went out and did the "lone wolf" thing and sat by themselves on easy to see hill tops and ignored their rear armor. I even watched a pair of Cicadas pick apart 3 assaults that were sitting no more than 300m from each other, not even covering each other, concentrating on taking pot shots at some Jenner 600m away, with their Gauss Rifles and LRM20s. The Cicadas stopped BEHIND the first Assault mech, an Atlas, and picked it apart over the next 20 seconds. I even repeated this myself in a Hunchback 4G, bone stock. Killed an Awesome and an Atlas before I was finally stripped of my AC20 and moved for the cap.

Its not the weapons, its the players. If you play like a lone wolf then you will die a lone wolf.

#15 zhajin

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 06:09 AM

After reading over your post im wondering if the real problem with lasers is weight. Their damage to weight ratio of small and mediums is matched only by srms which obviously spread and are harder to hit with. Thus ligths and mediums can pack them in and still manage plenty of heatsinks and a big xl engine. perhapse a small increase in weight would help with the balance. I know its not TT cannon but again with the firing rate changes MWO needs to move away from cannon in some areas.

Pre DHS a jenner with 6 small lasers was pretty effective in the right hands, but had limitations. Now with DHS and endo, that same jenner can run with mediums, not only gaining alpha but range as well. We see similar results with many of the medium mechs. However most of the assault and heavy builds did not benefit nearly as much from DHS and Endo, nor do most rely heavily on small and medium lasers for their effectiveness. This is mostly because DHS and Endo do not help much when your limits are crit slots and hardpoints, as is the case with most assaults.

Edited by zhajin, 19 November 2012 - 06:17 AM.


#16 Taiji

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 06:15 AM

Atlas pilots aren't forced to put armor on their backs.

Don't make so many assumptions and pretty much any vague statement can be found to be possibly true.

#17 Asmosis

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 06:25 AM

View PostSayyid, on 19 November 2012 - 06:02 AM, said:

I sat back last night in my Commando and watched how many assaults, heavies and even mediums that went out and did the "lone wolf" thing and sat by themselves on easy to see hill tops and ignored their rear armor. I even watched a pair of Cicadas pick apart 3 assaults that were sitting no more than 300m from each other, not even covering each other, concentrating on taking pot shots at some Jenner 600m away, with their Gauss Rifles and LRM20s. The Cicadas stopped BEHIND the first Assault mech, an Atlas, and picked it apart over the next 20 seconds. I even repeated this myself in a Hunchback 4G, bone stock. Killed an Awesome and an Atlas before I was finally stripped of my AC20 and moved for the cap.

Its not the weapons, its the players. If you play like a lone wolf then you will die a lone wolf.


This is so true its not funny. Dont chase the jenner if it runs away, but for god sakes if it is actively engaging a heavier mech (or even one of your lights) help the poor guy out.

View PostSayyid, on 19 November 2012 - 05:39 AM, said:

You know there is a reason the military, EVERY military, around the world have teams, squads, platoons, companies, battallions etc. Even in the wide world of Battletech there are LANCES, which are units of 4 mechs, and are the smallest meneuver element in Battletech. So if you have a team of 8, well form into lances of 4, usually in close speed relation to each other, and cover each others blind spots. You would be surprised the amount of kills I have racked up just hanging back in a HBK-4G waiting on some poor light or cicada to run behind an assault or missile boat.


This would be the entire reason i own a streakcat. I dont play it that much now, but tbh for every other mech i drive, lights are the biggest threat. I'm more worried about running into a pair of Jenners than a pair of Atlas. If you remove lights from the equation your team is much more effective. Doesnt help much when theres 6 assults drop in the match though.

Edited by Asmosis, 19 November 2012 - 06:32 AM.


#18 Sadato

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 06:42 AM

View Postzhajin, on 19 November 2012 - 06:09 AM, said:

After reading over your post im wondering if the real problem with lasers is weight. Their damage to weight ratio of small and mediums is matched only by srms which obviously spread and are harder to hit with. Thus ligths and mediums can pack them in and still manage plenty of heatsinks and a big xl engine. perhapse a small increase in weight would help with the balance. I know its not TT cannon but again with the firing rate changes MWO needs to move away from cannon in some areas.

Pre DHS a jenner with 6 small lasers was pretty effective in the right hands, but had limitations. Now with DHS and endo, that same jenner can run with mediums, not only gaining alpha but range as well. We see similar results with many of the medium mechs. However most of the assault and heavy builds did not benefit nearly as much from DHS and Endo, nor do most rely heavily on small and medium lasers for their effectiveness. This is mostly because DHS and Endo do not help much when your limits are crit slots and hardpoints, as is the case with most assaults.


Unfortunately you can't balance by weight as then any stock mech would be overweight.

Heat, damage, rate of fire, and range are the balancing factors PGI are restricted to.

#19 Kurayami

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 06:49 AM

the reason behind dhs nerf is prevention of heat neutral laser mech builds\extensive boating. i don't see any problems with that.

#20 flackee

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 07:07 AM

Even before DHS were implemented, a 6ML jenner was pretty viable. It has different gameplay, and can be very effective just doing a few alpha strikes then running away to cool down. DHS makes it easier, for sure, but I don't think its game breakingly so.

While some silly things do end up happening, it is the exception. There are enough counters existing without nerfing laser damage across the board. Aside from the scout hunters and streakapults, anyone sticking near their team already has a leg up. Any pilot with the awareness to realize they are getting hit in the back can usually counter it, even atlas pilots caught out in the open a bit. The people getting cored in 3 hits are the ones standing there letting it happen, usually.





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