288 replies to this topic

[Riffleman]

Really? You gave 8 man games a try for 3 whole days? This is becoming a trend as its at least 6 recognizable teams I have seen today alone. One of the groups was on my team, I asked them what happened, is the dream dead already? They said 8v8 is total bs right now, nothing running but cheeze builds.

Is it really so bad you just arent having fun in 8 man teams now? What needs to change, I imagine actual tonnage matching would help. Whats so bad about it though?

[Lefty Lucy]

Riffleman, on 06 December 2012 - 09:14 PM, said:

Really? You gave 8 man games a try for 3 whole days? This is becoming a trend as its at least 6 recognizable teams I have seen today alone. One of the groups was on my team, I asked them what happened, is the dream dead already? They said 8v8 is total bs right now, nothing running but cheeze builds.

Is it really so bad you just arent having fun in 8 man teams now? What needs to change, I imagine actual tonnage matching would help. Whats so bad about it though?

Like, I was running in some 4-mans last night when we didn't have enough guys for 8. However, what's *really* pathetic is that some guys are still doing timed drops. If you have 8 players on, there is no reason to do PUG games at all.

"nothing but cheese builds" is just code for "we're not good enough to hack it, so we're going to farm you for imaginary space buxx."

[Cuthbert Allgood]

Edit...Meh

Edited by Cuthbert Allgood, 06 December 2012 - 10:30 PM.

[Serevn]

Lefty Lucy, on 06 December 2012 - 09:17 PM, said:

Like, I was running in some 4-mans last night when we didn't have enough guys for 8. However, what's *really* pathetic is that some guys are still doing timed drops. If you have 8 players on, there is no reason to do PUG games at all.

"nothing but cheese builds" is just code for "we're not good enough to hack it, so we're going to farm you for imaginary space buxx."

Really? Sounds more like they got tired of the Assault mech or pure speed/ stealth capping teams. Mostly asssault.
Bad manners too make assumptions.
Seriously, its relatively hard to get through a mostly atlas with ECMs team, and while possible without running another assault team or speed/stealth team, it can get tiring match after match. And its not supposed to be like WoT where players are required to get the "good" tanks for pre-made matches if they want to win, or even just join a pre-made.
I haven't bothered with teams in a while though so I can't personally say, I mostly solo pugs.

Edited by Serevn, 06 December 2012 - 09:36 PM.

[Alexandrix]

Are you really surprised that the 4 man(8 man sync drop) pro pugstompers couldn't cut it in the 8 man Q? All we've heard forever is how they all want some challenge and blah blah frikken blah,only to see them running back to 4 man pugstomping(some are still 8 man sync dropping even /facepalm) after they find out they aren't nearly as good as they thought they were.

Also,i've played about a dozen or so games in the 8 man q with some random players on my friends list,just to see what it was like.I haven't lost a match there yet.It was actually quite fun,and these people yelling about "it's all just cheese teams" are full of it.Simply put,they can't handle getting taken down a peg by real competition and prefer the easy mode pugstomp/cbill farm.

That being said,some kind of tonnage/BV based system probably needs to be put in place just to encourage balanced teams,even though I've only ran into 1 "cheese team" of all light mechs.Even that one team was just doing an end of the night "boredom" fun run,and it was fun and hilarious for both sides.We beat them 8-1.We lost our raven pilot when he got swarmed.Then summarily smashed the whole enemy team.

Edited by Alexandrix, 06 December 2012 - 09:26 PM.

[Vrekgar]

I know of plenty of people who tried 8mans and could not stand the insanity that it currently throws at you.

Theres only so many times you can face an imbalance of 300+ tons, especialy when the enemy team fields 8 D-DC's and lol Jams the map. Scouting doesnt help as they just bum rush your side and swarm anything they find. Sometimes you get lucky and can slip a light through their line to try and cap.

8Mans are the realm of Gimic comps and those who take things WAY too seriously. Most people just want to "Play the damn game" instead of work it as a job.

[Aethon]

From what I've read, I don't think I'd run 8-man games, either. It's so full of cheese, I think Primus would probably name an album after it. I can honestly understand why they're giving up on 8-man stuff until it gets another balancing pass.

[Lefty Lucy]

Serevn, on 06 December 2012 - 09:23 PM, said:

Really? Sounds more like they got tired of the Assault mech or pure speed/ stealth capping teams.
Bad manners too make assumptions.

I've been having a lot of fun playing 8 mans. I understand that some people aren't good enough. Part of being good is knowing and adapting to the meta. I understand that the meta could be more balanced, but I bought a CDA-3M and a AS7-D-DC because those mechs are what's useful to my team right now, even though I'm primarily a medium and heavy pilot when I PUG.

[Jacmac]

Yes, there are a lot of 8-mans breaking up and going back to 4-mans. Saw it on the Teamspeak servers, big-time tonight. I think many players aren't happy with being basically forced out of their favorite mech and into buying an Atlas D-DC they don't want to play all of the time or a Commando, Raven, Cicada they simply don't like.

[Vrekgar]

Perhaps things might be different when conquest mode comes out on the 18th, perhaps.

[Lefty Lucy]

Alexandrix, on 06 December 2012 - 09:24 PM, said:

Are you really surprised that the 4 man(8 man sync drop) pro pugstompers couldn't cut it in the 8 man Q? All we've heard forever is how they all want some challenge and blah blah frikken blah,only to see them running back to 4 man pugstomping after they find out they aren't nearly as good as they thought they were.

Also,i've played about a dozen or so games in the 8 man q with some random players on my friends list,just to see what it was like.I haven't lost a match there yet.It was actually quite fun

Have you and Rat been doing 8 man drops together? I have to hook up with you guys after finals.

[UnofficialOperator]

Yeah I'm back to either pugging or just go 2-4 player drops. Personally I was just fed up with all the time wasted in tinkering with mechs in between matches. Multiply that by potentially 8 players.

The trick with 8 man is

1. You really need a solid team who knows what they are doing or a clan that has been playing together for some time
2. You need a good Team Lead who has good command & control but yet not a total jackass
3. Strategy wise, you need a general direction before even dropping

Like someone predicted in another thread, there are essentially 2 types of premades. The unprepared will be fed on by the elites. Another thing he said which was correct, partial premades will still be the farming ground.

[Alexandrix]

Lefty Lucy, on 06 December 2012 - 09:26 PM, said:

Have you and Rat been doing 8 man drops together? I have to hook up with you guys after finals.

Rat and i were in one 8 man last night,only got 1 round in because it took forever to get 8 together....then people started leaving(was late at night) and it just kind fell apart shortly after we joined.It was fun tho.

Anyways,yea we need to get some 8 man going,give me a msg whenever you want to group up.

Edited by Alexandrix, 06 December 2012 - 09:36 PM.

[random51]

I prefer 4-man simply for reduced downtime and more variety. This is a bit of an exaggeration but 8-man feels like 5-10 minutes between matches of who can drop with the most D-DCs while 4-man you can still run/see anything and you don't have to wait for 7 other people to get their thumb out and ready up.

Do your mechlab/pilotlab on your own time, don't waste the time of an 8-man while you tweak percentage points. I get my mech where I want it to be BEFORE I look for a group. Unfortunately I'm one of few people that considerate of other people's time.

Edited by random51, 06 December 2012 - 09:37 PM.

[Stargazer86]

Lefty Lucy, on 06 December 2012 - 09:25 PM, said:

I've been having a lot of fun playing 8 mans. I understand that some people aren't good enough. Part of being good is knowing and adapting to the meta. I understand that the meta could be more balanced, but I bought a CDA-3M and a AS7-D-DC because those mechs are what's useful to my team right now, even though I'm primarily a medium and heavy pilot when I PUG.

So you agree that the only useful mechs in 8-mans currently are either DDC's or Light Mechs equipped with ECM?

My clan has been attempting to drop into battles with fairly balanced builds, people taking mechs that they enjoy playing rather than what's "meta" at the moment, which usually leaves us with a couple Founder's Atlases, a few lights, and a mix of mediums and heavies for a balanced build. And then we run up against a team that's 6 ECM equipped DDC's and 2 ECM Cicadas. And then another with 5 Atlases and 3 Guasscats. It's extraordinarily frustrating to get stomped simply because we're out-tonned. The few games we got where it was a fairly even match-up, even if we lost, we had fun. In those games, we were clearly out-played, no question. There's nothing frustrating about losing to a balanced team that's simply better than you.

No, the frustration stems from losing to cheese teams that are exploiting PGI's dumb design decisions.

At least in 4-mans or PUGs, I'm able to take my Hunchback and have fun with it since those battles have weight matching. I know I'm not going to smash my face into a wall of invisible 100-ton mechs.

Edited by Stargazer86, 06 December 2012 - 09:39 PM.

[Alexandrix]

random51, on 06 December 2012 - 09:36 PM, said:

I prefer 4-man simply for reduced downtime and more variety. This is a bit of an exaggeration but 8-man feels like 5-10 minutes between matches of who can drop with the most D-DCs while 4-man you can still run/see anything and you don't have to wait for 7 other people to get their thumb out and ready up.

Do your mechlab/pilotlab on your own time, don't waste the time of an 8-man while you tweak percentage points. I get my mech where I want it to be BEFORE I look for a group. Unfortunately I'm one of few people that considerate of other people's time.

This i agree with.I try very hard to not have to do anything in the mechlab when i'm in an 8man.Or do anything that would keep me from being ready as soon as the match is over.I understand that sometimes AFK or delays are un-avoidable,but really,please try to keep it short,or within whatever general time frame a "group afk" should be.7 other people are waiting on you

[Elizander]

This much is expected. Of course some teams just can't get 8 people together so they drop in groups of 2-4 while waiting but you can't expect everyone to maintain their 8-man attitude when facing teams that are competitive. The matches are more tiring if you try for the win and a lot of teams prefer to run a mix of mechs rather than going for the "Most ECM Mechs in a Team" award.

Even without ECM and the Atlas, I still expect a lot of 8-man teams to break down once they hit a wall in terms of opponent's they can't beat. Some teams are just not able to get past the plateau of pug stomping (I'm not generalizing all premades here, mind you).

I'm thinking that 8 man mode is better suited to a WoW-style arena with ratings and rewards for further incentives, though that usually leads to win trading once the top teams thin out and it's easier to fix up matches late at night.

[Riffleman]

Its kinda sad to see that as currently implemented, 8 man is dying a slow boring death.

[Alexandrix]

Stargazer86, on 06 December 2012 - 09:37 PM, said:

So you agree that the only useful mechs in 8-mans currently are either DDC's or Light Mechs equipped with ECM?

My clan has been attempting to drop into battles with fairly balanced builds, people taking mechs that they enjoy playing rather than what's "meta" at the moment, which usually leaves us with a couple Founder's Atlases, a few lights, and a mix of mediums and heavies for a balanced build. And then we run up against a team that's 6 ECM equipped DDC's and 2 ECM Cicadas. And then another with 5 Atlases and 3 Guasscats. It's extraordinarily frustrating to get stomped simply because we're out-tonned. The few games we got where it was a fairly even match-up, even if we lost, we had fun. In those games, we were clearly out-played, no question. There's nothing frustrating about losing to a balanced team that's simply better than you.

No, the frustration stems from losing to cheese teams that are exploiting PGI's dumb design decisions.

At least in 4-mans or PUGs, I'm able to take my Hunchback and have fun with it since those battles have weight matching. I know I'm not going to smash my face into a wall of invisible 100-ton mechs.

This is a problem with the ridiculous implementation of ECM.it's totally dicked the meta right now.I really would rather be in one of my many other mechs,but i'm stuck in this stupid D-DC.I feel like I'm doing my team a disservice if I don't run it.So,I feel you on not being able to run the mech you wanna run,really i do.

Having said that,you either do what you have to do to be on par with whatever you might face,or you go running back to 4 man pugstomping with your tail between your legs.You know what's out there,find out what works for your team to defeat it.Yes,I know it's much easier to just go faceroll pugs for easy mode wins/cbills,but isn't this what you wanted? a challenge?
well,it's not the challenge you expected to face...but there it is.

Edited by Alexandrix, 06 December 2012 - 09:47 PM.

[Lefty Lucy]

Stargazer86, on 06 December 2012 - 09:37 PM, said:

So you agree that the only useful mechs in 8-mans currently are either DDC's or Light Mechs equipped with ECM?

My clan has been attempting to drop into battles with fairly balanced builds, people taking mechs that they enjoy playing rather than what's "meta" at the moment, which usually leaves us with a couple Founder's Atlases, a few lights, and a mix of mediums and heavies for a balanced build. And then we run up against a team that's 6 ECM equipped DDC's and 2 ECM Cicadas. And then another with 5 Atlases and 3 Guasscats. It's extraordinarily frustrating to get stomped simply because we're out-tonned. The few games we got where it was a fairly even match-up, even if we lost, we had fun. In those games, we were clearly out-played, no question. There's nothing frustrating about losing to a balanced team that's simply better than you.

No, the frustration stems from losing to cheese teams that are exploiting PGI's dumb design decisions.

At least in 4-mans or PUGs, I'm able to take my Hunchback and have fun with it since those battles have weight matching. I know I'm not going to smash my face into a wall of invisible 100-ton mechs.

I'd love it if the game were balanced so that a wider variety was useful, but that's just not how things are right now. I'm a firm believer that when you want to play at the top of the game, you have to adapt to the top, not expect the top to adapt to you. That holds for *any* competitive endeavor.

However, tonight we were running a CDA-3M, an HBK-4SP, a Raven 3L, two cataphracts and 3 DCs. Sure, it's still a heavy team, but it's not as homogeneous as what a lot of people are claiming.