203 replies to this topic

[Solis Obscuri]

A thought occurs to me - if a PPC hit only disables the ECM in one enemy 'mech, isn't that just an incentive to bring more ECM 'mechs for redundancy?

Hitting the on the hill D-DC won't do anything to the 3L behind the rise next to him. Likewise, hitting just one of the 3Ls or 2Ds swarming over you with Streaks still won't take down the cloak effect.

ECM really remains the only counter to ECM.

[Kiiyor]

Nice point. ECM bubbles within ECM bubbles to counter-counter people's ECM countering.

I can see the problems that would arise, but it would also mean that their ECM capable mechs would all have to cower together to ensure redundancy for their precious ECM bubbles, rather than striding across the battlefield like near-invincible gods making life miserable for support mechs.

Plugging that DDC and removing his ECM would mean that someone else would have to cover him. Maybe that could be advantageous?

[Khobai]

PPCs will not counter ECM. Because when youre sniping with PPCs from 1000m away you cant even see what youre shooting at. Its just a blue splotch on thermal vision. So how are you gonna pinpoint ECM mechs at that distance if you cant even see what youre shooting at?

ECM needs to be nerfed and PGI just need to realize the majority of their player base wants ECM nerfed.

[Tarman]

Kiiyor, on 29 January 2013 - 04:12 PM, said:

Nice point. ECM bubbles within ECM bubbles to counter-counter people's ECM countering.

I can see the problems that would arise, but it would also mean that their ECM capable mechs would all have to cower together to ensure redundancy for their precious ECM bubbles, rather than striding across the battlefield like near-invincible gods making life miserable for support mechs.

Plugging that DDC and removing his ECM would mean that someone else would have to cover him. Maybe that could be advantageous?

That sounds like.... what could be tactics. But tactics are OP! Cheater.

[Bishop Steiner]

not to mention, all most of us PPC lovers have asked for is for them to be more consistent Antimech cannons... making them anti-ecm cannons that still splash their damage all over the place unless you boat 4-6 of them is not the answer I was looking for to "make PPCs worth their heat burden".

DEVS: Please go and load up your old copies of MW3 and MW 4, SEE how they function there. Read the TT rulebooks you claim to venerate so... and simply make our frikking PPCs hit hard, consistently, and stop adding window dressing to the most annoyingly inconsistent weapon in the game!

As for nerfing ECM... just nerf the frikking ecm instead of trying to make something else act as the paper to ECMs rock......

[Orzorn]

Just like TAG didn't counter ECM, neither will PPCs. TAG was hard to fit in because it takes an entire energy slot. PPCs are hard to fit in because they weigh 7 tons.

They help, for sure, but I doubt that the mechs using a lot of LRMs have room for PPCs, and I doubt that the mechs using streaks the most have the tonnage for PPCs. It once again goes back to being a concerted team effort to get around ECM to the point of being able to use the weapons that ECM counters.

If it takes that sort of effort to do that, why even bother with those weapons? Just use direct fire weapons.

The best you might get out of this is shutting down the lone or dual ECM you might find in a game. But against 6 or so of them? No chance. You can't split all your damage like that and survive, let alone have all 6 of you carrying PPCs end up being worth while.

Edited by Orzorn, 29 January 2013 - 04:24 PM.

[Corvus Antaka]

yeah, it wont do anything with 8 man or 4 man ECM where there are multiple ECMS.

[Tennex]

ECM doesn't need a counter it needs a nerf.

ECM, AMS, BAP all weigh the same for 2 crit slots. Would anyone here ever consider either AMS or BAP over ECM.
are they balanced? or is my definition of balance different from the dev's


Balance - To bring into or keep in equal or satisfying proportion or harmony.

Edited by Tennex, 29 January 2013 - 05:43 PM.

[Kyone Akashi]

The PPCs anti-ECM effect will work nicely against a huge and slow Atlas, but I very much doubt it will do much against the small and nimble Lights - which I see as the most dangerous platform. Ironically, the upcoming change thus seems to impact that one 'Mech the most which I would have regarded as perfectly balanced even with ECM as it works now. An Atlas at least is rather hard to miss, regardless of what armaments you use. And here, consistent chainlinked PPC-fire to keep its ECM offline sounds like a viable tactic now.

Perhaps this change should not be regarded as "a fix for ECM" but rather a small addition to the immersion and simulator part of MWO, where - instead of considering game balance - we simply consider that it makes sense for an ion weapon to mess with the target's electronics, especially something as complex as the Guardian suite.

[Team Leader]

While I think its really just an incentive to PPCs, rather than a counter to ECM, it really isn't even a step in the right direction. Neither are the modules. Like, seriously, millions of cbills and hundreds of games worth of gxp for an extra 50 meters? As in, and additional .03 nanoseconds of ground that the ECM mech has to cover?

Edited by Team Leader, 29 January 2013 - 04:37 PM.

[Kiiyor]

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 29 January 2013 - 04:24 PM, said:

yeah, it wont do anything with 8 man or 4 man ECM where there are multiple ECMS.

If they are a co-ordinated team, no - but I think it will make ECM mechs at least a little less sure of their invulerability.

If you can catch a DDC in the open, you could possibly LRM him to death before support gets to him, or at least force him to seek cover. You would have a pretty good chance of keeping the LRM doom timer reset.

For anything faster than a pregnant whale however, the trouble is, if you DO manage to light up a light with your PPC skills, your jubilant celebrating will likely be cut short when you realize that the eleven billion opportunistic LRM's winging their way towards him become more dangerous to YOU when his ECM kicks back in, unless you can spank him again before the timer runs out.

Hit the light, he appears on radar (unless he's multi bubbled) Get lock, fir-- GAH! Gone.

[Asmudius Heng]

Agreed with all points.

More band **** - not looking at the root causes of the problems.

[Kiiyor]

Team Leader, on 29 January 2013 - 04:36 PM, said:

While I think its really just an incentive to PPCs, rather than a counter to ECM, it really isn't even a step in the right direction. Neither are the modules. Like, seriously, millions of cbills and hundreds of games worth of gxp for an extra 50 meters? As in, and additional .03 nanoseconds of ground that the ECM mech has to cover?

Good point. It will make streaks a little more viable against lights again though - that extra 70m will help get a lock, but only if the light isn't circling YOU in the first place, in which your nanosecond rule will trump all.

[Xenosphobatic]

ITT: More ECM QQ

PPC's finally get a large scale use (DDC ECM countermeasure) and everyone talks about how useless it is. Little steps in the right direction, not to mention that a module, easily switched between mechs, will enable Streaks to be viable past 180m.

[Bishop Steiner]

Xenosphobatic, on 29 January 2013 - 04:49 PM, said:

ITT: More ECM QQ

PPC's finally get a large scale use (DDC ECM countermeasure) and everyone talks about how useless it is. Little steps in the right direction, not to mention that a module, easily switched between mechs, will enable Streaks to be viable past 180m.

Actually, could care less about the ECM, hoss. Baby steps are great, band ****, not so much. This by no means does anything, "canon" or otherwise to truly enhance the value of a PPC.

"Hey, let's grab an over-hot, erratic damage cannon and strap on 7 tons, that could be used elsewhere, in case they have a DDC on their team! (especially since it will be precious little use against Commandos and Ravens)" And hey.. 5 seconds of ECM fuzz! Yes.. my PPC cycles every 3 second so we are good to... crap.. I just shutdown from overheat... the DDC has it's ecm shield again and......."

Is kinda more the point I was getting at. If ECM does need a nerf, then nerf it, instead of trying to fit something else as a "counter" for it. And stop trying to give peripheral "side abilities" as a way to justify PPCs extreme heat vs wonky damage.

[Orzorn]

Bishop Steiner, on 29 January 2013 - 04:53 PM, said:

And stop trying to give peripheral "side abilities" as a way to justify PPCs extreme heat vs wonky damage.

Note that the balance post also said:

Quote

A proper scaling has been done to the rest of the mentioned weapons (i.e. they have all been reduced in terms of heat generated).

Its "extreme heat" is being reduced in addition to the EMP effect.

[Khobai]

Quote

Its "extreme heat" is being reduced in addition to the EMP effect.

that means theyre lowering its heat by 1 lol

[Kyone Akashi]

Xenosphobatic, on 29 January 2013 - 04:49 PM, said:

PPC's finally get a large scale use (DDC ECM countermeasure) and everyone talks about how useless it is. Little steps in the right direction, not to mention that a module, easily switched between mechs, will enable Streaks to be viable past 180m.

Without dismissing the changes as a step into the right direction, is it not true that all of these changes will have little effect on those 'Mechs currently posing the greatest problem in connection with ECM?

"Doom and gloom" kind of talking is unwarranted, but I remain hopeful that the developer will not consider the matter settled now, for the upcoming changes will not do.

[Eddrick]

Kiiyor, on 29 January 2013 - 04:12 PM, said:

Nice point. ECM bubbles within ECM bubbles to counter-counter people's ECM countering.

I can see the problems that would arise, but it would also mean that their ECM capable mechs would all have to cower together to ensure redundancy for their precious ECM bubbles, rather than striding across the battlefield like near-invincible gods making life miserable for support mechs.

Plugging that DDC and removing his ECM would mean that someone else would have to cover him. Maybe that could be advantageous?

I would so be laughing if they try that with Artilery Weapons in play. Full damage to everyone within about 100m and 1/2 damage to everyone within about 200m. Has a greater risk of colateral damage then indirect fire LRMs. But, easyer to control.

[Monky]

ECM is the only practical ECM counter. Tagging someone consistently witha PPC without degenerating into a full on brawl just doesn't seem likely. I suppose an Atlas might get themselves caught in the open for more than a few seconds, allowing LRMs to actually land on the target, but still it isn't much.

For example - TAG currently has 750 meter range and no travel time, and I have not seen it used once against ECM mechs, due to the fact that ECM mechs are simply to quick to cover that ground and make it irrelevant. Shutting down ECM for 5 seconds on a lucky hit against a light will be different for novelty points only, LRM do not travel fast enough, and SSRM would have to practically have a lock already.

Oh well.

Edited by Monky, 29 January 2013 - 05:18 PM.