238 replies to this topic

[SixstringSamurai]

He linked to the actual rule book....where it shows ECM and what it does....WITH PICTURES. You have to dig a little to find it, open a PDF, and then go to page 136 or 138, something like that. There it shows both in text and using a hex grid diagram, how ECM functions, how it works with line of sight, and how the mechs behave under its influence.

Edited by SixStringSamurai, 11 February 2013 - 06:22 PM.

[Volthorne]

SixStringSamurai, on 11 February 2013 - 06:17 PM, said:

He linked to the actual rule book....where it shows ECM and what it does....WITH PICTURES. You have to dig a little to find it, open a PDF, and then go to page 136 or 138, something like that. There it shows both in text and using a hex grid diagram, how ECM functions, how it works with line of sight, and how the mechs behave under its influence.

And it mentions nothing about denying the useful firing of LRMs (as opposed to dumb-fire), blocking of TAG (it actually STATES it doesn't), or nullification of spotting.

[Shibas]

All this talk about how pgi is not properly applying rules from a turn based tabletop game and applying them directly to a FPS PC game is ruining my immersion. MY IMMERSION!

[Ter Ushaka]

Have we gotten a MWO thread bingo yet?

[RLBell]

WinningOne, on 10 February 2013 - 04:41 PM, said:

I'm surprised to see this thread because I think ECM is awesome. I love that LRM boating and sniping requires more than sitting on a hill wating for scouts to get LOS on a target. I really like knowing I have to take walking through high cover areas seriously now and that I have to check around the corners instead of marching through like a blind cow. I also like knowing that players are having to put more thought into their loadout than "How can I shoehorn another ton of LRM's into this beast?!". Sure, sometimes people sneak up on me but if I'm not paying attention and they get there then good for them. Bottom line, for me ECM made the game a lot more fun because it made the enemy more dangerous.

I am happy that you are such a competent mechwarrior. If LRM's were that unbalancing, they should fix LRM's. ECM's are too good at what they do and are too limited in chassis availability. If every mech on both sides had ECM units, then we could play gladitorial arena combat among andabates (fighters in helmets with no eyeholes, blind man's bluff with swords), but most mechs cannot mount it. I experimented with a STK-5S LRM boat (I had pulled the SRM launchers to build a STK-5M splatcat wannabe, so I had plenty of LRM10's), between the minimum range and the ECM, in five fights, I fired the LRM's only three times-- twenty-four tons of dead weight. Being swarmed by Ravens is bad enough, but you also get ambushed by two, sometimes three, Atlas AS7-D-DC's. I do not remember ever winning when behind on ECM equipped Atlases. As a service to PUGgers everywhere, I am grinding for my own AS7-D-DC. Hopefully, I can make a difference.

[Shibas]

So close.

[StalaggtIKE]

Willie Sauerland, on 11 February 2013 - 03:45 PM, said:

Given there was a well reasoned argument in the post I showed you, there was plenty there for you to work with. However, given you are simply crying, I'll leave you alone now so you can go get your group hug.

I do not agree with you and the fact you are not willing to even listen to the other opinion shows your inability to cope with views other than your own. The level of conversation in your world must be dreadful...

I felt that the argument was inconclusive. It fell upon interpretation. Either way there was nothing there that suggested that ECM prevents LRM lock-on.

[WinningOne]

RLBell, on 11 February 2013 - 08:55 PM, said:

I am happy that you are such a competent mechwarrior. If LRM's were that unbalancing, they should fix LRM's. ECM's are too good at what they do and are too limited in chassis availability. If every mech on both sides had ECM units, then we could play gladitorial arena combat among andabates (fighters in helmets with no eyeholes, blind man's bluff with swords), but most mechs cannot mount it. I experimented with a STK-5S LRM boat (I had pulled the SRM launchers to build a STK-5M splatcat wannabe, so I had plenty of LRM10's), between the minimum range and the ECM, in five fights, I fired the LRM's only three times-- twenty-four tons of dead weight. Being swarmed by Ravens is bad enough, but you also get ambushed by two, sometimes three, Atlas AS7-D-DC's. I do not remember ever winning when behind on ECM equipped Atlases. As a service to PUGgers everywhere, I am grinding for my own AS7-D-DC. Hopefully, I can make a difference.

Well, I do want to point out that I didn't say I was winning. Just that I was having more fun. I think the introduction of ECM has forced people to create more dynamic loadouts for some variants and pay more attention to tactics. That has made the game feel more intelligent and enabled me to trust my team more. And, just for the record, I only PUG.

Edited by WinningOne, 12 February 2013 - 08:39 AM.

[Garth Erlam]

Slugger2012, on 08 February 2013 - 03:24 PM, said:

Replace ECM with one thats true to the original BT-rules...

"The Guardian ECM Suite was introduced in 2597 by the Terran Hegemony[1]. Designed to interfere with guided weaponry, targeting computers, and communication systems, the Guardian is typically used to shield allied units from such equipment by emitting a broad-band signal meant to confuse radar, infrared, ultraviolet, magscan and sonar sensors."

[Statixstorm]

"Affected systems includeArtemis IV, C3 and C3i Computer networks, and Narc Missile Beacons. A Guardian can jam a Beagle Active Probe (or its Clanequivalent), but the probe-equipped unit will be aware of the jamming. The Capellan Confederation expanded the utility of the Guardian even more with the introduction of Stealth Armor.^[3]

The greatest drawback to the Guardian is its limited range, which extends out to only 180 meters. Sensors can sometimes override this jamming, though by that point the enemy unit is already within visual range and can track the opposition with their own eyes."


There is nothing stating Streaks will not lock, nor is there anything indicating that outside 180 meters that the ECM will have any effect on targeting and locking with LRMs.

Seems to be more in line with Angel ECM which is not developed yet.

"The Angel ECM Suite represents a great advance in ECM technology from the standard Guardian model. Within its 6 hex radius of effect, the Angel suite completely blocks the following systems on enemy units: Artemis IV, Artemis V, Beagle Active Probes,Bloodhound Active Probes and their Clan equivalents, C3 Master Computers and C3 Slaves, Streak Missile Launchers and Narcmissile beacons. Streak missiles may be fired at units affected by the device, but they function as standard missiles."

Regardless, it is the way it is, and it's likely going to stay that way.

Edited by Statixstorm, 12 February 2013 - 09:28 AM.

[Roland]

MWO also has built in C3 for every mech.

Turns out, things are different than TT. Deal with it.

[StalaggtIKE]

Roland, on 12 February 2013 - 09:34 AM, said:

MWO also has built in C3 for every mech.

Turns out, things are different than TT. Deal with it.

Are you referring to Garth's or Statixstorm's comments? Perhaps both?

[Roughneck45]

Garth Erlam, on 12 February 2013 - 09:14 AM, said:

"The Guardian ECM Suite was introduced in 2597 by the Terran Hegemony[1]. Designed to interfere with guided weaponry, targeting computers, and communication systems, the Guardian is typically used to shield allied units from such equipment by emitting a broad-band signal meant to confuse radar, infrared, ultraviolet, magscan and sonar sensors."

EXACTLY

When I read the description of ECM, I thought you guys nailed it perfect.

I even quote these exact text to some posters, and they just interpret it as something else to suit their own argument against ECM.

It DOES NOT MATTER what it did in TT. PGI read the fluff and and made it match word for word in their own game.

Edited by Roughneck45, 12 February 2013 - 10:03 AM.

[Roughneck45]

Statixstorm, on 12 February 2013 - 09:26 AM, said:

There is nothing stating Streaks will not lock, nor is there anything indicating that outside 180 meters that the ECM will have any effect on targeting and locking with LRMs.

Designed to interfere with guided weaponry,

There it is, in the first sentence.

Its not affecting stuff outside of 180, its shielding friendlies within it. Enemey sensors are not affected, friendly mechs get sensor cover.

If you think this is "affecting enemies at unlimited range", then what exactly is ECM supposed to do for friendlies within 180? If the answer is something like not letting the enemy see weapons, or %, or something useless like that, then no one would bring ECM. PGI wanted it to have more of an impact on the battlefield then that.

Edited by Roughneck45, 12 February 2013 - 10:11 AM.

[focuspark]

Garth Erlam, on 12 February 2013 - 09:14 AM, said:

"The Guardian ECM Suite was introduced in 2597 by the Terran Hegemony[1]. Designed to interfere with guided weaponry, targeting computers, and communication systems, the Guardian is typically used to shield allied units from such equipment by emitting a broad-band signal meant to confuse radar, infrared, ultraviolet, magscan and sonar sensors."

Garth, you're actually not helping here. You can't post a portion of the description and call it done, either post all or none.

Anyways, why can ECM work like this:

A: ECM equipped mech
B: Allied mech, protected by ECM
C: Allied mech, not protected

D: Enemy mech, within the ECM bubble. Can see and attack A & B. Cannot share targeting data with allies.
E: Enemy mech, outside the ECM bubble. Can see and attack A & C. Can share targeting data with allies.
F: Enemy mech, outside the ECM bubble. Cannot see A, B, or C. Can share targeting data with allies. Can not indirect fire A or B due to ECM protection. Can indirect fire C using targeting data from E.

Roughneck45, on 12 February 2013 - 10:06 AM, said:

Designed to interfere with guided weaponry,

There it is, in the first sentence.

Its not affecting stuff outside of 180, its shielding friendlies within it. Enemey sensors are not affected, friendly mechs get sensor cover.

If you think this is "affecting enemies at unlimited range", then what exactly is ECM supposed to do for friendlies within 180? If the answer is something like not letting the enemy see weapons, or %, or something useless like that, then no one would bring ECM. PGI wanted it to have more of an impact on the battlefield then that.

How the hell do you "shield friendlies with in it"?! It's a force field. It should only affect systems within the bubble, not protect systems within the bubble. ECM is offensive, not defensive - remember, it's interfering with electronics and if it those electronics are outside it's effective radius, they should not be interfered with.

[SixstringSamurai]

Is it me or did Garth just quote Sarna?

[Spot]

I too am dissapointed. In the maker of this thread.




Also you do know you can dummy fire the LRMs? Ive gotten alright scores will doing so. Yeah it isnt the most effective but fireing only three times in multiple matches is just sad.

[StalaggtIKE]

Roughneck45, on 12 February 2013 - 10:06 AM, said:

Designed to interfere with guided weaponry,
There it is, in the first sentence.
Its not affecting stuff outside of 180, its shielding friendlies within it. Enemey sensors are not affected, friendly mechs get sensor cover.

Enemies sensors are affected all the way until they get within 200m of ECM, with a brief undisrupted window of 20m. Only to have it gone once within 180m.

Quote

If you think this is "affecting enemies at unlimited range", then what exactly is ECM supposed to do for friendlies within 180? If the answer is something like not letting the enemy see weapons, or %, or something useless like that, then no one would bring ECM. PGI wanted it to have more of an impact on the battlefield then that.

So, you admit it goes beyond 180m. Because, as you stated, if it didn't no one would bring it. That is false. It would not be as popular because it would require some skill to use. So, everyone that has the ability to equip it, would not always do so. It means players would not run in the open, but instead, have to jump from cover to cover. They would have to work to get within 180m and then they would have the advantage of ECM.

SixStringSamurai, on 12 February 2013 - 11:04 AM, said:

Is it me or did Garth just quote Sarna?

That would be correct.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 12 February 2013 - 11:20 AM.

[Codejack]

Garth Erlam, on 12 February 2013 - 09:14 AM, said:

"The Guardian ECM Suite was introduced in 2597 by the Terran Hegemony[1]. Designed to interfere with guided weaponry, targeting computers, and communication systems, the Guardian is typically used to shield allied units from such equipment by emitting a broad-band signal meant to confuse radar, infrared, ultraviolet, magscan and sonar sensors."

Wow, so you left out THE VERY NEXT SENTENCE WHICH LISTS WHAT IT DOES?!

Statixstorm, on 12 February 2013 - 09:26 AM, said:

"Affected systems includeArtemis IV, C3 and C3i Computer networks, and Narc Missile Beacons. A Guardian can jam a Beagle Active Probe (or its Clanequivalent), but the probe-equipped unit will be aware of the jamming. The Capellan Confederation expanded the utility of the Guardian even more with the introduction of Stealth Armor.^[3]

Garth, you just lied to us. Why should we ever believe anything else you say?

[Volthorne]

Roughneck45, on 12 February 2013 - 10:03 AM, said:

PGI read the fluff and and made it match word for word in their own game.

Hierarchy of game design: Fun > Gameplay > Fluff.

F*** the fluff, it doesn't make for good gameplay OR a fun game, and "fun" is CLEARLY at the top of the hierarchy.