189 replies to this topic

[riverslq]

you forget, what makes it worse is giving ecm to mechs who can use streaks and cheese out a kill.

rock, paper, scissor < ecm.

[Royalewithcheese]

I think the issue with what counters ECM/what ECM counters is the degree of countering. So like my D-DC's ECM is "countered" by TAG, but all that means is a salvo of missiles one or twice every map. Whereas a LRM boat's team's ability to effectively target me and my team without TAG is "countered" by my ECM, which means a serious cut in the number of situations in which the LRM boat can use LRMs on us.

There's also the fact that the thing being "countered" on my mech is a 1.5 ton thing on a 100 ton mech that I stick in my CT and forget about, whereas the thing being countered on the LRM boat is over half of its weapons loadout.

[Fiachdubh]

Daggett, on 23 February 2013 - 05:25 AM, said:

Simply read my wall of text right above your first post.
ECM countering streak-boats is not the problem, this feature is ok because it punishes boating of LRMs and SSRMS.
It's the radar/communication-disruption and stealth-feature which makes it too powerful.

BTW, PGI gave ECM to the light mechs with most missile slots like the CMD-3D and the Raven-3L.
THEY are the new streak-boats and the only ones which can currently use streaks effectively.

ECM simply shifted the mechs on which SSRMs are powerful...

This is my break from studying, I see a wall of text and my eyes glaze over

I do not like streaks and do not use them, much prefer srm6, more damage and if I miss it is all on me not some game mechanic. The streak 2 is a very poor weapon for a light unless you can mount a load of them (3L can only mount 2), with the speed and manouverability advantage there is no reason to use them over srm 6 or even other weapons unless the pilot can not be bothered aiming for the most effective spot to hit.

As for ECM itself, it is a small enough bubble that a team will not be able to stay in very long once fighting starts and means they are all bunched up so someone is going to get hit by much of the incoming fire. Just dash by pumping in the srm and laser fire

I do see your point about ECM, speed and streaks being compacted onto one chassis I just do not think they are that powerful (although they do frighten me in my hunchie but not as much as Jenners) and they will be less so as more mechs and weapons are released. I just had a Treb stuck on my *** (was in a Raven 4X) and could not even get a line on him he was so fast, torn to shreds.
The 3L is a fantastic mech for scouting or sprinting through packs of heavies causing confusion but is easily countered by well piloted light mechs. There has already been a significant drop in ravens in matches that I have been in at least, only saw 6 Ravens (half of them 3L) over 6 matches in my last bout of gaming (on my team anyway), used to be when there would be 3 or 4 on a team almost every match.

[SlXSlXSlX]

This game is so fun today. I bought a DDC, and I love it.

Wanna hear the weird things....

I have not been hurt/killed by LRMs once, 10+ games.
I may not have been high score, but I have only lost once or trwice, though I have put in effort in game chat each match.
Best part is, my mech does NOT have ecm installed on it. I am that DDC w no ECM.

I don't think it really impacts my matches at all, but perhaps it is my build. Long and the short, at this point today, based on my exp (a combo of teamwork with ELO matching me appropriately to enemy skill levels, plus that I tanked my stats yesterday AFKing while i mounted a mini-forum war) I think I am better off with either 2 more ton of ammo, or, 2 more tons of heatsinks.

Maybe its just me, but I doubt it.

The people that have adapted to mwo with ecm arn't busy in here drowning their tears. They are too busy having fun, playing the game, ecm aside.

Too you all, who consistently cry about ECM, I wish that someday you too win learn how to play with/around it, and start enjoying the greatness that is MWO today, and stop posting in such a "QQ Magoo" fashion.

I think eventually I will get an ecm, if for nothing else to get my map back when a raven 3L is behind me, but at the moment, I find it hard to justify the 2 tons.

Edited by SlXSlXSlX, 23 February 2013 - 09:50 AM.

[DocBach]

I've adapted just fine to ECM, I still think its a bad mechanic as implemented.

[SlXSlXSlX]

I can appreciate that. Also I can assume, only assume bc i bet im not there, that at the top of ELO mt., the best players, if they went 4 raven 3Ls w ecm, would be a hard opponent to beat.

I will respect your opinion Doc, but might venture to distinguish yourself, from the majority of the anti-ECM posters.

If I made a change perhaps it would be to make ecm a module, thus harder to acquire, perhaps make it weigh more. Maybe.

To whichever gentlemen suggested ECM have a 3rd mode. I loved that idea. The more strategic ripples, the better. Not saying its broken at all, nor impossible to counter, nor game breaking....

But, adding more complexity, IE a more intricate system of counters would in my mind, be interesting. I probably still wouldnt carry it, and would still love my 4x more than every other mech combined, but I respect your opinion.

[SpiralRazor]

Everyone already understands the issue sir

[DocBach]

SlXSlXSlX, on 23 February 2013 - 09:56 AM, said:

But, adding more complexity, IE a more intricate system of counters would in my mind, be interesting. I probably still wouldnt carry it, and would still love my 4x more than every other mech combined, but I respect your opinion.

Part of the reason ECM lacks complexity is all of the things it traditionally jams are pretty useless in MWO. Make Beagle a radar that can see through terrain and you might want to take ECM to mask your movements from it... most of our advanced sensor modules and the such are actually functions of Beagle they stripped from it and sell for GXP.

Pretty much, make all of the electronics do something in information warfare instead of just ECM.

I've suggested several ways to balance ECM better, like you mentioned one idea was to split it into modules. The base equipment would just block Artemis, Narc, Beagle and target sharing through the bubble, but taking modules with the equipment could enhance your capabilities.

http://mwomercs.com/...m-with-modules/

[Daggett]

SlXSlXSlX, on 23 February 2013 - 09:36 AM, said:

The people that have adapted to mwo with ecm arn't busy in here drowning their tears. They are too busy having fun, playing the game, ecm aside.
Too you all, who consistently cry about ECM, I wish that someday you too win learn how to play with/around it, and start enjoying the greatness that is MWO today, and stop posting in such a "QQ Magoo" fashion.

I repeat what i wrote before:
Being able to adapt is absolutely no argument when it comes to balance a game.

We all can adapt to all kinds of broken things, but those things will stay broken. That's a fact dictated by logic.
And even though i already adapted, i still want a fair game for everyone, not just for the elite players.

While PGI made lots of things right, they totally screwed ECM by giving it several strong advantages without any single disadvantage. Instead of band aiding every other aspect in the game to adress the ECM-issue like they currently do, they should rather make the hard cut and redesign ECM into an item where i always have to consider the alternatives instead of snap-equipping it.

You are one of the very few guys out there who don't use ECM on your ECM mechs, i respect that.
But from an objective point of view, the 1,5 tons the ECM cost is always worth it, especially in an 100t beast.

If ECM would be allowed on each mech, i guarantee that 90-95% of all players would use it.
And a system that's a must have for every competitive player is broken by definition.

Edited by Daggett, 23 February 2013 - 10:16 AM.

[Vasces Diablo]

My big issue is that there is zero cost of use or trade off for using ECM. Every price of equipment in the game has a cost of use (heat, ammo, cool down, etc) except ECM. There is no reason for anyone not to take it.

[Joseph Mallan]

TAG generates no heat, uses no Ammo, needs no cool down. Beagle Active probe, same. I'm sorry, but your incorrect this time.

[DocBach]

Joseph Mallan, on 23 February 2013 - 10:30 AM, said:

TAG generates no heat, uses no Ammo, needs no cool down. Beagle Active probe, same. I'm sorry, but your incorrect this time.

Except those do very, very little in comparison to what ECM does in this game.

[Rivqua]

To reply to the original poster. You missed one thing, which what most people complain about 99% of the time (weather they realize it or not). ECM stops PUGs zombiewalking towards a close red target and applying dps on it. MOST of them just sit there and wait for the red target to light up so they start shooting it, even if all they have is direct fire weapons.

[Vasces Diablo]

Joseph Mallan, on 23 February 2013 - 10:30 AM, said:

TAG generates no heat, uses no Ammo, needs no cool down. Beagle Active probe, same. I'm sorry, but your incorrect this time.

TAG takes an energy hard point and requires you to keep line of site on a moving target while exposed to fire.

BAP is useless in current form.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Joseph Mallan, on 23 February 2013 - 10:30 AM, said:

TAG generates no heat, uses no Ammo, needs no cool down. Beagle Active probe, same. I'm sorry, but your incorrect this time.

Dude Joseph did you really compare ECM to Tag and Beagle? Lol. C'mon man. Seriously?

[SlXSlXSlX]

Rivqua, on 23 February 2013 - 10:35 AM, said:

To reply to the original poster. You missed one thing, which what most people complain about 99% of the time (weather they realize it or not). ECM stops PUGs zombiewalking towards a close red target and applying dps on it. MOST of them just sit there and wait for the red target to light up so they start shooting it, even if all they have is direct fire weapons.

I hit that, it is under "inept usage of measures available". The new player is inept on most every level. I myself am a great example. For month one, I was struggling w which direction my feet were moving in, in ratio to my torso. Some learn slow. But, eventually, it became internalized I now do not think about it, I just move where I want to. I dont have to look at the map to see which direction my feet point.

Point is, the new guy is failing on most levels, not just one. You want ot talk about driving away new players, or reducing their in game experience? ELO has really put that issue to rest, and furthermore, they will get better. No one should expect the new guy to be a pro. By and large, people that joined post ecm (I joined 2 days b4 it was released), care alot less about ecm. Its the golds that seem to post non-stop about how its op in this way, bad in that way. The new players, see it as part of a sea of all new things they have to learn about, and adapt to.

TL DR: That new players struggle w ecm is not a solid anti-ecm argument. New players, struggle with pretty much everything in MWO. What they struggle with most, is a 4 man, that has far more experience than themselves. ECM carriers, or not.

Edited by SlXSlXSlX, 23 February 2013 - 10:44 AM.

[Doc Holliday]

Good god, another one of these stupid threads.

There's nothing to unravel about ECM. It's very simple: ECM is stupid overpowered, period, full stop, end of story.

[Joseph Mallan]

Vasces Diablo, on 23 February 2013 - 10:37 AM, said:

TAG takes an energy hard point and requires you to keep line of site on a moving target while exposed to fire.

BAP is useless in current form.

Thats a fair counter argument.

Nicholas Carlyle, on 23 February 2013 - 10:39 AM, said:

Dude Joseph did you really compare ECM to Tag and Beagle? Lol. C'mon man. Seriously?

Being fair Yes I should be able to compare them 1:1

The comparision was however about equipment not using Ammo, cool down and the other restrictions Nicholas listed. Whether or not the lot is on par with ECM, all meet with the qualities used to argue ECM domination. I would like to see ECM fixed, but these qualifiers are not teh reason to do so... Specifically because these other weaker bits of tech match the don't use Ammo, Generate no heat, use no ammo, have no cool down qualifiers.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 23 February 2013 - 10:48 AM.

[Vasces Diablo]

Joseph Mallan, on 23 February 2013 - 10:46 AM, said:

Thats a fair counter argument.
Being fair Yes I should be able to compare them 1:1

The comparision was however about equipment not using Ammo, cool down and the other restrictions Nicholas listed. Whether or not the lot is on par with ECM, all meet with the qualities used to argue ECM domination. I would like to see ECM fixed, but these qualifiers are not teh reason to do so... Specifically because these other weaker bits of tech match the don't use Ammo, Generate no heat, use no ammo, have no cool down qualifiers.

By being literal, you missed my point.

My point is that when you take a piece of equipment, there should be some trade off or downside that makes you say "is this equipment the right one for my build? Like a pulse laser does more concentrated damage, but is heavier, generates more heat and has shorter range". Also, note the "etc" I had listed. Using a hard point is a huge trade off to counter ECM.

ECM generated no heat, has no cool down, doesn't use a hard point, only uses 2 crit slots (so you can stash it in your CT), only weighs 1.5 tons, and is an AOE with a 100k square meter area of effect.

While these do apply to BAP as well (that's a fair point), BAP is of course, completely defeated by ECM, thus not worth taking.

[Extirpator]

No-one read this suggestion, but may offer some resolution...

http://mwomercs.com/...33#entry1945533