189 replies to this topic

[DocBach]

Extirpator, on 23 February 2013 - 11:00 AM, said:

No-one read this suggestion, but may offer some resolution...

http://mwomercs.com/...33#entry1945533

Don't feel bad, most people ignore my suggestions or make fun of me for "needing to learn to play and adapt." I'm only 16th on the medium leaderboards right now without ECM, maybe if I get to first I'll be able to have an opinion.

[Joseph Mallan]

Vasces Diablo, on 23 February 2013 - 10:56 AM, said:

By being literal, you missed my point.

My point is that when you take a piece of equipment, there should be some trade off or downside that makes you say "is this equipment the right one for my build? Like a pulse laser does more concentrated damage, but is heavier, generates more heat and has shorter range". Also, note the "etc" I had listed. Using a hard point is a huge trade off to counter ECM.

ECM generated no heat, has no cool down, doesn't use a hard point, only uses 2 crit slots (so you can stash it in your CT), only weighs 1.5 tons, and is an AOE with a 100k square meter area of effect.

While these do apply to BAP as well (that's a fair point), BAP is of course, completely defeated by ECM, thus not worth taking.

I didn't miss your point. I am pointing out the fail point of it. There is a short list of crappy equipment that does not generate heat, use ammo, have a cool down, so in just that area I think ECM is balanced, It's a peice of electronics. BUT it's a piece of electronics that does to much. If you add a cool down to ECM then a cool down should be added to Beagle. BUT ECM reaches to far, Like make Beagle have all teh powers of a Bloodhound probe:

Quote

Testing proved conclusively that a Bloodhound-equipped 'Mech could spot units equipped with Null Signature Systems, Void Signature Systems, Stealth Armor, and ECM Suites

[DocBach]

Joe, the point is, ECM weighs 1.5 tons and has absolutely no downside or penalty for using it, which is out of proportion for its effects. Look at how skill based its counters are, and look how much they require to use; TAG requires you to expose yourself to enemy fire and hold it on target, PPC's weigh three times as much and are some of the hottest weapons. ECM itself takes no skill, just pick the requisite chassis and equip.

TAG and Beagle, though they make no heat, have nowhere near the effects on a game as ECM does.

Edited by DocBach, 23 February 2013 - 11:26 AM.

[Tahribator]

So, after suffering for two days with my Cicadas I got fed up and bought a Commando 2D for anti-3L purposes. Loaded it up with an ECM and 3 Streaks and on the first game I killed two lights and two Atlases all by myself for 750 damage. I wasn't even trying.

This is clearly broken, there's a HUGE difference between a light with streaks and a light with lasers.

Edited by Tahribator, 23 February 2013 - 11:26 AM.

[Dudeman3k]

SlXSlXSlX, on 23 February 2013 - 03:11 AM, said:

Overall summary is, theres a ton of weapons, the majority, it does not negate. Missle Warrior Online is dead, your going to have to accept that. It was not very popular, save the LRM boaters themselves.

Side Note: Wow there is a manual of all this stuff.?! You kind of lost me on that technical BT stuff. Can you dumb it down for me?

Id be happy w more counters, provided they take skill to employ. We need more skill, and less LMB spam.

yes, manuals and books, rules, everyuthing. BT (or MW) was deffinately NOT created by PGI.... it's like DnD... everything already exsists, but its up to the game developers to **** **** up wanting to make a foot print somewhere

[Malevolent Twitch]

I absolutely love the,"quit QQing and learn to play" statement. There is nothing that better defines the state of this Beta Testing Community. We are here to play the game, test the game, report our findings, and hopefully have fun doing that. Now, ECM has been a hot button for quite a while now. The reason being is that quite few people have found some rather sizeable flaws with it, I happen to be among them. Thus, when someone like Daggett posts up well constructed argument, I laugh my *** off when the only real counterpoint is "TL;DR L2P."

Now, I bought a D-DC a while back when **** near every match half the mechs was sporting ECM and if you didn't bring enough ECM to the table you lost. There has never been any other piece of equipment in this game, from CB until now that has caused that situation. From Guasscats to Lagshields to missile boats, nothing has been so gamebreaking has been introduced as much as the little black box that quite realistically puts the game into easy mode.

[Royalewithcheese]

On the subject of ECM vs. Beagle, what if Beagle increased the range at which mechs with ECM were detected, but ECM still took out a Beagle-equipped mech's ability to share target information once they were inside the bubble? (And on the subject of how ECM interacts with other stuff, why don't SSRMs work in an ECM bubble haha?)

[AnarchyBurger]

Your list is bad. ECM also counters TAG when in the bubble. Not sure on NARC effects but I believe it may do something to that also.

[wwiiogre]

I have posted many times in many different threads.

Current ECM in MWO is not the ecm that is in this timeline for BattleTech it is effectively Null Sig.

ECM in this timeline does 3 things which have to be toggled not two things.

1. ECM in this timeline stops Narc/Artemis bonus
2. Counter ECM
3. Ghost Targeting which makes it harder to hit, not impossible to get a lock which is what Current MWO does called null sig

Ghost Targeting in BT is countered by BAP and Command Console, Current ECM in MWO has no counter and does two things at the same time.

In BT, ECM can stop Narc/Artemis, counter ECM or Ghost Target, not three settings, none that apply at same time.
In MWO ECM stops Narc/Artemis, Does not allow a lock except within x amount of meters and can counter ECM.

So yeah, ECM as it is in MWO is broken, does not follow timeline and is completely overpowered.

No Where in BT lore or canon does ECM make it impossible to lock on to a target, it just makes it harder to lock on. Only Null Sig makes it impossible to lock on unless within x amount of meters.

So yeah, broken, and a piece of equipment from the future of BT. Not from this timeline. Why have a specific timeline and then choose not to follow it?

How could this current ECM be fixed within the rules of MWO. Using current items and ideas already in game.

Perhaps instead of no lock, current ECM could make it take longer to lock. Say 6 seconds. With BAP reducing that by 1 second and Command Console reducing it by 2 seconds and yes they stack for a whopping half reduction to a 3 second lock time. This is over and above the current lock times.

What would this do to MWO, it would make every weapon usable against ECM, it would however allow the scout mech to have a grace period to attempt to disengage before getting ***** by the more powerful mechs around it if it is stupid enough to get within range and line of sight of bigger mechs. This means a light mech with ecm would be a scout mech. Not a brawling, I am immune to the only weapons that can really hurt me ssrm.

Also make the ECM require three settings, 1. stops narc/artemis but not TAG 2. Ghost Targets making it take longer to lock on mech 3. Counters ECM. This adds another layer and depth to the tactics of using ECM.

Note modules already allow locks to last longer so why not have some that make it take less time to lock when combined with ecm or bap or command console, wait we have target info gathering that already does that. Also you could have pilot skills that also reduce lock times etc. Once again adding depth to the game, instead of just an ecm easy button for the win.

The other bigger problem that is rarely talked about when dealing with ECM is the problem of Light Hit Boxes not applying damage correctly due to lag/netcode. Since we all know hitting Atlas DC in the open even when it is under ecm is not a problem and the PPC emp effect now counters the Atlas ECM, and tag works as well. But TAG and *** fire against lights at range going 140+kph is not a counter it is more a chance. *** does not knock down ecm long enough for a mech to get a lock, then fire lrm's at range, the ecm comes back up, lrm's lose lock and therefore are useless.

So there you have it, current ecm is not ECM of BT, it is null sig. Which makes it a weapon system from the future which is why it is broken in its current state. A fix is easily available and brings ECM back into the timeline, adds more tactical depth and means every weapon system can counter it eventually. Not the broken counters that are currently sometimes working in MWO now. It also means lights with ECM if it is changed would have to be more cautious and actually play like the scouts they are instead of the beasts they have become. I can regularly get 500-700 damage while in my Raven 3L. I refuse to play the mech now cause it is broken. I only use it in 8 mans since if you don't bring more ecm than the other team in 8 mans you lose 95% of those matches. Which is a big case and reason why ECM is broken. 8 man competitive play is about who brings the most, not who is the better team most of the time.

Sorry for the wall of text but at this point it needs to be said.

When I post this in every forum thread about ECM, nobody bothers to try to refute my points intellectually. Let's see if anyone here is up to a real intellectual debate based on the facts and merits, rather than I want my easy button min/max for the win and dude you got no skillz blather that is generally spewed here.

Chris

[DocBach]

Royalewithcheese, on 23 February 2013 - 12:05 PM, said:

On the subject of ECM vs. Beagle, what if Beagle increased the range at which mechs with ECM were detected, but ECM still took out a Beagle-equipped mech's ability to share target information once they were inside the bubble? (And on the subject of how ECM interacts with other stuff, why don't SSRMs work in an ECM bubble haha?)

In the source material, Beagle's ability to locate shut down/hidden targets is countered, but it is suppose to be more effective at detecting ECM shrouded 'Mechs when spotting inside enemy ECM than standard 'Mech sensors.

[Slippfist]

3 Potential Easy fixes for the ECM

1.) ECM generates a small amount of heat when active (as it should), or it raises your base heat by a decent amount while active.

2.) Remove the radar jamming component for the enemy team, you shouldn't be able to cloak you're team and then jam close enemies as well.

3.) Make it single target or Very tiny AOE and available to all mechs.


More complicated solution

Allow enemies to target you and your allies, but change the effect of the ECM into a disrupt/destroy incoming enemy missles.
Increase the radius by a large amount but add diminishing returns on the ECMs effect as you move further away from the ECM. So the mech with it benifits the most and allies closest to him are more protected then those further away.

I think a disrupt over destroy function would be best (maybe a combo of both). If the missle is affected it will fly off in a random direction or deflected away from the target causing some extra chaos when the missles start flying at ECM's.



Also, random side note. Why can't i use my lasers to shoot down missles??

Edited by Slippfist, 23 February 2013 - 12:25 PM.

[SlXSlXSlX]

wwiiogre, on 23 February 2013 - 12:12 PM, said:

I have posted many times in many different threads.

Current ECM in MWO is not the ecm that is in this timeline for BattleTech it is effectively Null Sig.

ECM in this timeline does 3 things which have to be toggled not two things.

1. ECM in this timeline stops Narc/Artemis bonus
2. Counter ECM
3. Ghost Targeting which makes it harder to hit, not impossible to get a lock which is what Current MWO does called null sig

Ghost Targeting in BT is countered by BAP and Command Console, Current ECM in MWO has no counter and does two things at the same time.

In BT, ECM can stop Narc/Artemis, counter ECM or Ghost Target, not three settings, none that apply at same time.
In MWO ECM stops Narc/Artemis, Does not allow a lock except within x amount of meters and can counter ECM.

So yeah, ECM as it is in MWO is broken, does not follow timeline and is completely overpowered.

No Where in BT lore or canon does ECM make it impossible to lock on to a target, it just makes it harder to lock on. Only Null Sig makes it impossible to lock on unless within x amount of meters.

So yeah, broken, and a piece of equipment from the future of BT. Not from this timeline. Why have a specific timeline and then choose not to follow it?

How could this current ECM be fixed within the rules of MWO. Using current items and ideas already in game.

Perhaps instead of no lock, current ECM could make it take longer to lock. Say 6 seconds. With BAP reducing that by 1 second and Command Console reducing it by 2 seconds and yes they stack for a whopping half reduction to a 3 second lock time. This is over and above the current lock times.

What would this do to MWO, it would make every weapon usable against ECM, it would however allow the scout mech to have a grace period to attempt to disengage before getting ***** by the more powerful mechs around it if it is stupid enough to get within range and line of sight of bigger mechs. This means a light mech with ecm would be a scout mech. Not a brawling, I am immune to the only weapons that can really hurt me ssrm.

Also make the ECM require three settings, 1. stops narc/artemis but not TAG 2. Ghost Targets making it take longer to lock on mech 3. Counters ECM. This adds another layer and depth to the tactics of using ECM.

Note modules already allow locks to last longer so why not have some that make it take less time to lock when combined with ecm or bap or command console, wait we have target info gathering that already does that. Also you could have pilot skills that also reduce lock times etc. Once again adding depth to the game, instead of just an ecm easy button for the win.

The other bigger problem that is rarely talked about when dealing with ECM is the problem of Light Hit Boxes not applying damage correctly due to lag/netcode. Since we all know hitting Atlas DC in the open even when it is under ecm is not a problem and the PPC emp effect now counters the Atlas ECM, and tag works as well. But TAG and *** fire against lights at range going 140+kph is not a counter it is more a chance. *** does not knock down ecm long enough for a mech to get a lock, then fire lrm's at range, the ecm comes back up, lrm's lose lock and therefore are useless.

So there you have it, current ecm is not ECM of BT, it is null sig. Which makes it a weapon system from the future which is why it is broken in its current state. A fix is easily available and brings ECM back into the timeline, adds more tactical depth and means every weapon system can counter it eventually. Not the broken counters that are currently sometimes working in MWO now. It also means lights with ECM if it is changed would have to be more cautious and actually play like the scouts they are instead of the beasts they have become. I can regularly get 500-700 damage while in my Raven 3L. I refuse to play the mech now cause it is broken. I only use it in 8 mans since if you don't bring more ecm than the other team in 8 mans you lose 95% of those matches. Which is a big case and reason why ECM is broken. 8 man competitive play is about who brings the most, not who is the better team most of the time.

Sorry for the wall of text but at this point it needs to be said.

When I post this in every forum thread about ECM, nobody bothers to try to refute my points intellectually. Let's see if anyone here is up to a real intellectual debate based on the facts and merits, rather than I want my easy button min/max for the win and dude you got no skillz blather that is generally spewed here.

Chris

Chris, I have a reply. My first thread ever made this same point. You should not base a balanced game today, off of some turn based board game from the past. You cant take the rules of BT, and directly apply them to this FPS, and expect it to jsut "work". This is your argument, then you follow with suggested fixes based on the presumption that you are right.

I am sorry, but I disagree 100%. People have also said that LRMs here work nothing like they do in BT. Perhaps not, perhaps so, it really does not matter. This is a modern FPS, and balance, not staying true to the lore of novels, is what matters.

Sidenote: Yesterday I shot at a swath of missles with my ac2's, it would have beenawesome if it knocked some out b4 the volley hit me, but it did not. Wouldn't that be sweet?

Edited by SlXSlXSlX, 23 February 2013 - 12:22 PM.

[wwiiogre]

Wait,

Current ECM is based off of the table top, but the ecm in the future of the table top. So your reply means you are wrong and your assumption that using table top as a basis is wrong. Since everything in MWO is based off the table top.

So please try using a better debate style than you are wrong and a straw argument at best.

Current ECM is based on Null Sig from the table top almost exactly as null sig is written leaving off the cannot be seen by heat vision part. Null Sig in table top is from the future of MWO not the current timeline.

The null sig effect currently being used is instead of ghost targeting. I explained that ghost targeting could be done in MWO and how and why it is better than null sig.

Yet your only argument is that it should not be based on table top. Really, try better next time and realize that I have a huge amount of BT knowledge combined with all the books involved so I can look things up as well as access to sarna.

So your I like ECM how it is cause it is an easy button, is shameless. Cause that is the only argument for its current uses. 8 man play is the only real basis to tell if any single weapon or equipment is balanced in MWO. Currently 8 man teams that heavily use ECM win more matches. All the time, a majority of more wins. Having played 8 mans, alot. I can say this is true. How, because I have looked at the make up of our opponents.

All things being equal, weight of mechs, skill of pilots. Team with the most ECM wins. Simple, not 100% but near to it.

How can the ECM not be OP if this is true?

Now my evidence on 8 mans is anecdotal. MWO could if they wanted reveal the data involving ECM mechs. And how they really influence the current matches. I can tell you right now, personally I am devastating in an ECM mech. Why, cause its the easy button for the win. My win/loss goes up, my k/d goes up when I use ECM. Because I cannot be effectively hit by certain weapons. Simple. Its easy mode.

Chris

[SlXSlXSlX]

Sir,

I dont know the first thing about BT, nor do I care to at this point, you guys make the whole scene seem toxic. I am simply talking about balance in the present meta. When you experienced BT guys come in here quoting manuals, and arguing about rule sets or whatever, it falls on deaf ears. Is the game balanced? Or is it not? This is the question, and no amount of reference to BT lore form long ago will change the relevancy of this question.

[Galathon Redd]

I know this thread was started to counter the usual ECM complaining, but frankly, all Internet usrs should know what feeding trolls and fanning flamers leads to. That said, as this is at least the 3rd time today ECM-QQing has reared its ugly head, like neither we nor PGI could possibly know what we think of it by now...

Yeah, I was getting bored of the Star Wars Lego one. I'll find a nerdier one soon.

[Malevolent Twitch]

SlXSlXSlX, on 23 February 2013 - 12:36 PM, said:

Sir,

I dont know the first thing about BT, nor do I care to at this point, you guys make the whole scene seem toxic. I am simply talking about balance in the present meta. When you experienced BT guys come in here quoting manuals, and arguing about rule sets or whatever, it falls on deaf ears. Is the game balanced? Or is it not? This is the question, and no amount of reference to BT lore form long ago will change the relevancy of this question.

Maybe it falls on deaf ears becuase those that have ears refuse to listen. I have yet to see a post that can clearly and definitively prove to me that Mechwarrior is not based on Battletech. Especially since a mojrity of the original fluff that the Devs posted up about MWO was they were trying to design a game that was as close to keeping with the Battletech franchise as possible. Sadly, the old webpages that clearly stated Battletech in multiple places no longer exist, but the roots of this can still be found by accessing the community page. Pages like Battletech.com and Sarna.net and Catalyst game labs are listed, not as similar entities but as community support. Furthermore, the fact that the timetable currently flows at 1:1 day by day as the BATTLETECH canon flowed proves that there is more to MWO than just another Mech based game. The fact that you find the purist mindset to be toxic is not our fault.

Edited by Malevolent Twitch, 23 February 2013 - 12:55 PM.

[wwiiogre]

SixSixSix,

That explains a lot and I apologize for quoting mantra.

My reasons I feel ECM is not balanced have been explained. But instead of blindly complaining I always try to be constructive with ideas using existing game play for ways to make it better. To me that is a constructive way to use the forum.

My experience with 8 mans and with 4 mans and with playing non ecm lights with 1000+ drops with pugs under my belt goes a long way to why I think ECM is broken in its current state and why the null sig use is out of place for this game.

I gave real reasons of how my proposals would improve tactical game play. Making ecm scouts actually act like ecm scouts. I am sorry you don't have the back ground or the interest to look up the BT canon/lore. The fiction books are some good reads. And this background would help you understand why PGI has made some of the choices they have. The table top game is also a lot of fun and the 25th anniversary box set is probably the best value in table top miniatures in the industry plus lots of fun to play.

I am also a huge computer gaming nerd and have played many games competitively online and still do so. The MechWarrior and Battle Tech franchise is very dear to the hearts of people like me who have been playing it since the mid 1980's. I liked it so much I invested $120 of my money to be a founder for this game. That does not entitle me to anything than to periodically convey my hope and ideas to try to make the game better for everybody. Not just the min/max stat padding players that love every piece of equipment that gives them an unfair advantage in a game that needs to be fun for all players, new ones and old and ones without experience.

Good Luck

Chris

[Wildstreak]

Adding onto SIXSIXSIX's post:

Equipment ECM stops without a counter

NARC
Beagle Active Probe
Artemis

The only one used a lot was Artemis, since ECM Stealth I see a lot of non-Artemis builds.

The only thing needed for ECM beyond its TT features was to lower the number of missile hits from a standard LRM shot.
It did this by countering NARC.
It did this by countering Artemis.
So it makes sense it should lower the number of missile hits from a non-NARC non-Artemis barrage. It should even do that in TT though it doesn't.

ECM Stealth is also too good in that it removes intelligence gathering. That it should never do. It has also been acknowledged that some current ECM features are from using tech available in game year 3063, current MWO game year is 3050. The 3063 tech also comes with penalties such as increased heat generated, ECM in MWO has NO PENALTIES.

Proof is in how every game I have been in where there are ECM Mechs, the ECM team more often than not wins especially if there is an Atlas DC present, then everyone who is not a light stays near the DC until engaging allowing ambushes that should not be possible. If you want to ambush in big Mechs, it should be done by taking advantage of terrain, not some 'magic umbrella' that dumbs down your play and skill.

[Wildstreak]

Some responses so the previous post would not get long.

Elkarlo, on 23 February 2013 - 01:34 AM, said:

We need BaP to be counter to ECM also as it, it would even be in Lore.(*)

No no no, BAP was never a lore counter to ECM, when ECM was first put into BattlTech it was and still is listed as countering BAP.

SlXSlXSlX, on 23 February 2013 - 03:11 AM, said:

Overall summary is, theres a ton of weapons, the majority, it does not negate. Missle Warrior Online is dead, your going to have to accept that. It was not very popular, save the LRM boaters themselves.

There never was a Missile Warrior Online, what actually happened is that several players, apparently including you, never learned how to deal with LRMs so you wanted ECM Stealth becuase you failed to L2P yourself. Now this group just looks silly posting how great they are when they are not and telling people to do what the Pro-ECM crowd refused to do, L2P.

SlXSlXSlX, on 23 February 2013 - 12:21 PM, said:

Chris, I have a reply. My first thread ever made this same point. You should not base a balanced game today, off of some turn based board game from the past. You cant take the rules of BT, and directly apply them to this FPS, and expect it to jsut "work". This is your argument, then you follow with suggested fixes based on the presumption that you are right.

I am sorry, but I disagree 100%. People have also said that LRMs here work nothing like they do in BT. Perhaps not, perhaps so, it really does not matter. This is a modern FPS, and balance, not staying true to the lore of novels, is what matters.

Completely false. All games I have seen done on platforms like computers have made efforts to stay true to some of the original source material. You argument ignores a lot of game history along with putting people in a position to go to jail. Deviate too much from the original source material demands the question why you didn't just make up your own lore in the first place especially because of the money you would have saved. Balance matters but not at the expense of the lore material since you PAID for the license to use it and can GO TO JAIL if you break the law.

Slippfist, on 23 February 2013 - 12:15 PM, said:

Also, random side note. Why can't i use my lasers to shoot down missles??

Because you already have Anti-Missile System and if a team uses it right, what is left that hits is not worth complaining about.

[Lazydrones541]

Dont forget you can still blind fire your LRMs if the target isnt moving its a handy thing while atlases are standing around pointing fingers.