80 replies to this topic

[Multitallented]

Lavrenti, on 25 February 2013 - 04:19 PM, said:

Oh God, please give my Hunchbacks ECM. I will never pilot anything else...

I seem to remember in MW4, Hunchbacks had ECM

[Talimar1]

I'm going to make another thread with advice and experiences of me piloting a Spider 5D up to 8th place tonight, kind of like an Ask Me Anything. I will include tips and tricks, my build, everything I can think of in my still somewhat sleep deprived state(Though not as bad as Saturday and Sunday )

[Gamgee]

I played for the first day about half of it and was consistently ranked 34th-26th. I did this in a Jenner-D. The lone Raven usually isn't a problem. I have a good chance of defeating them. What really held me back and made me quit so early was my low quality team mates I was being matched with!

I was going 6 kills and 1000+ damage in some games. You think the other 7 team mates could aim and kill the last two? GRRR!!!! Though I was averaging more like 4 kills and 700 damage. Still, this is insane. I was just hoping for some lucky streak to get a team who could shoot straight, but it never happened. Then I realized I was just grinding for nothing and had better things to do. It gives me a pretty good idea of where my skill level is at though.

Edit
You did that in a Spider? I salute you brave soul!

Edited by Gamgee, 25 February 2013 - 05:36 PM.

[Gaan Cathal]

Talimar1, on 25 February 2013 - 05:14 PM, said:

I'm going to make another thread with advice and experiences of me piloting a Spider 5D up to 8th place tonight, kind of like an Ask Me Anything. I will include tips and tricks, my build, everything I can think of in my still somewhat sleep deprived state(Though not as bad as Saturday and Sunday )

That I will be very interested to read.

[jay35]

A well-piloted Jenner is just as hard to kill as a 3L Raven.

Also, something has to be the best in its class, and whatever it is will be hated for it.

I hope PGI continues to ignore the QQing about the 3L Raven.

When I'm running a slow heavy mech, I fear the 3L, but that's a good thing. It requires teamwork and it should be considered a threat, not a pest that can be easily ignored while fighting other enemies.

Some of you simply don't understand real balance within a diverse set of mechs. There needs to be threats in every weight class, and right now there are.

Don't neuter the 3L just because it's a challenging foe. Same goes for the Jenner. I hate them both when they're targeting me, but I deal with it and I call for backup.

Edited by jay35, 25 February 2013 - 06:30 PM.

[Soulscour]

One Medic Army, on 25 February 2013 - 05:10 PM, said:

Their hitboxes seem to give me issues getting those hits to register.
Example: fighting a 3L and a Jenner in a 2v1 match, in one of my Trebuchets (4xML+2SRM6).
Pounding at the raven for a good 30 seconds, SRMs shown as impacting but never deal damage, lasers turn his armor yellow but no more.
Fire once at the Jenner and he explodes (he had already lost CT armor).
Continue to ineffectually fire at the 3L, I think I got some of his armor to orange by the time he finishes killing me.
Ask Eboli if you want verification, he was the Jenner.

There are some other factors. Water for example makes it so you cant hit so when the light is submerged it makes it very hard because its half a target and legs are invulnerable. Really its all about waiting for that one piloting error of a light to get close and to capitalize on that split second. One shot at 10m will usually strip the armor and they will be red or it completely destroys a commando. Manipulating the situation where you are fighting around cover to force close quarters and away from water is optimal. If I fight most lights in a Cent-A both mechs fresh 1v1 I consider myself at the advantage. If Its 1 v 2 its even odds.

[Naelobo]

Talimar1, on 25 February 2013 - 05:14 PM, said:

I'm going to make another thread with advice and experiences of me piloting a Spider 5D up to 8th place tonight, kind of like an Ask Me Anything. I will include tips and tricks, my build, everything I can think of in my still somewhat sleep deprived state(Though not as bad as Saturday and Sunday )

Listen, I love my Spider 5D, but if you are going up against any other light mech with ECM, they are going to have streaks most likely and there is nothing short of building hoping to escape that will keep you alive. Now Im not saying it's broken but I think all missile types need to have their damage values adjusted, LRM\SRM needs to go back to default TT value, its like this for a reason. The TT values take into account the increase in armor for a longer fight, but considering PGI increased the damage value for LRM\SRM but (the majority of) lasers are still the same, it's obvious which weapon system is more effective. Streaks were designed in TT to have 100% chance to hit, but they do 2 damage per missile and ECM was designed to double lock time, not prevent it. This, in my opinion is the biggest problem with balance in MWO. PGI started with TT values and then took a hard left in one category missiles. It will have to be reviewed once again otherwise the board is going to start exploding over the next few weeks.

Edited by Arkikim, 25 February 2013 - 06:18 PM.

[Talimar1]

Alright guys, my thread is posted. http://mwomercs.com/...pider-5d-pilot/

I had a great time dropping with everyone and a great time playing. Played with and against Wispsy several times and he can definitely play a jenner I do think it was only him and I that were non Raven3Ls in the top 10, if not the top 25, which I am not sure about.

[hammerreborn]

Gaan Cathal, on 25 February 2013 - 05:11 PM, said:

Oh believe me, if I have a good match I tend to attract all the rage. Amusingly, most of it is about my 'ECM/Streak/3 lamerness'. This is irrespective of the fact that I run SRMs in all my Raven missile slots, and more than once I've had the StreakECMRavenNoob rant in my -2X.

People just see the beaky profile and flip out. I have perfectly capable (based on a couple second observation, granted) pilots flip out and just spray and pray in my general direction, laser-boating mediums completely ignore me (guys, it's your job to kill me if I'm in the brawl) and all sorts of nonsense.



Edited for spelling derp

I ran the srm6 and a ssrm2 in my raven when I could stomach it.

[mechymike]

the only time i don't have an issue with the 3L is when i am either in my hunting jenners (4SL + SRM4x2, or my 6ML) or my atlas - DDC with SSRM2x3 and ECM.


if i come across a 3L in anything else i pretty much just search for another target and do as much damage as possible before the 3L picks me apart, simply because i can kill 2 heavies in the time it takes to kill a single decently skilled 3L

Edited by mechymike, 25 February 2013 - 06:29 PM.

[jay35]

mechymike, on 25 February 2013 - 06:27 PM, said:

the only time i don't have an issue with the 3L is when i am either in my hunting jenners (4SL + SRM4x2, or my 6ML) or my atlas - DDC with SSRM2x3 and ECM.


if i come across a 3L in anything else i pretty much just search for another target and do as much damage as possible before the 3L picks me apart, simply because i can kill 2 heavies in the time it takes to kill a single decently skilled 3L

Try teamwork. It's the best way to get rid of a 3L. And that's another reason why the 3L is fine just the way it is: It forces teamwork or you will likely die.
The 3L is punishment for straying from the group in anything that is too slow to rejoin the group before the 3L can pick you apart.

Edited by jay35, 25 February 2013 - 06:35 PM.

[Redmond Spiderhammer]

Slab Squathrust, on 25 February 2013 - 10:31 AM, said:

Yeah unfortunately it does. I didn't play at all this weekend because I knew whenever I dropped, I'd see multiple 3l's. Now we will see if PGI decides to do anything about it. ECM may have looked good in their play testing, but just like a clinical trial, when you release to the general public you see unintended side effects that only occur with a much larger sample size.

actually when they first mentioned ECM they stated that internal testing showed it massively imbalanced so they needed to fix it before putting it live.... scary to think what that must have been like!

[Gaan Cathal]

hammerreborn, on 25 February 2013 - 06:22 PM, said:

I ran the srm6 and a ssrm2 in my raven when I could stomach it.

SRM6+SRM4 in my current 3L setup (running the 2X mostly atm). The high damage, even with the spread, spooks a lot of medicore (as compared with my ELO, obviously) light pilots. And a lot of the better Assault/Heavy pilots discount a 3L for larger, more damaging targets (because an SSRM4 doesn't matter so much to them, smart call) and tend not to worry about me until I put 3MLAS and an effective SRM10 into their backside. If they think to lock me and my ECM is counter(ed/ing) then they tend to put some effort into introducing me to a PPC though. Then I squirrel and hope their wingmen aren't as smart.

[Das Wudone]

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 25 February 2013 - 10:36 AM, said:

I hope this showed PGI the ECM issue, as the weekend was filled with ECM mechs everywhere, but the 3L was definitely the mech of choice.

its not just an ECM issue. i mean if it really was an ecm issue the cicadas and spiders with ECM would be very problematic as well but the fact is they arent really. its more of the streaks + speed & wonky hitboxes aided by lagshield + ecm combination. streaks in the 1st place werent balanced properly, lagshield as of the moment has not been fixed completely, ecm countering streaks which were meant to scare off lights are unusable on them unless u got a disrupting wingman or tagger from a distance.

[Eboli]

One Medic Army, on 25 February 2013 - 05:10 PM, said:

Their hitboxes seem to give me issues getting those hits to register.
Example: fighting a 3L and a Jenner in a 2v1 match, in one of my Trebuchets (4xML+2SRM6).
Pounding at the raven for a good 30 seconds, SRMs shown as impacting but never deal damage, lasers turn his armor yellow but no more.
Fire once at the Jenner and he explodes (he had already lost CT armor).
Continue to ineffectually fire at the 3L, I think I got some of his armor to orange by the time he finishes killing me.
Ask Eboli if you want verification, he was the Jenner.

I find that Raven 3Ls are an enigma when it comes to damage allocation hits. To me it appears that you have to slowly whittle down all their armour levels and it is quite random where damage actually is allocated. Some hits do not seem to register and I have had cases where I hit a Raven 3L on the nose (front on charge) and it is registering damage on the back torso.

Just last night I decided to take a 6spl Jenner out for a run and was able to intentionally leg a 3L and eventually kill it.

Other Raven variants seen to handle hits where they occur.

BUT, being in Australia my ping is about 250 so all the above comments are being affected by ping/lag.

And yes - One Medic Army and I have a few games with and against each other and OneMA had no problems in hitting me yet the Raven 3Ls proved very elusive. In other words - it was not OneMA's aim that was at fault and next time I will be less bold in trying to get in behind you by moving towards you from the front In this case He Who Dares Lost

Cheers!
Eboli

Edited by Eboli, 25 February 2013 - 08:23 PM.

[Corvus Antaka]

Eboli, on 25 February 2013 - 08:08 PM, said:

I find that Raven 3Ls are an enigma when it comes to damage allocation hits. To me it appears that you have to slowly whittle down all their armour levels and it is quite random where damage actually is allocated. Some hits do not seem to register and I have had cases where I hit a Raven 3L on the nose (front on charge) and it is registering damage on the back torso.

Just last night I decided to take a 6spl Jenner out for a run and was able to intentionally leg a 3L and eventually kill it.

Other Raven variants seen to handle hits where they occur.

BUT, being in Australia my ping is about 250 so all the above comments are being affected by ping/lag.

And yes - One Medic Army and I have a few games with and against each other and OneMA had no problems in hitting me yet the Raven 3Ls proved very elusive. In other words - it was not OneMA's aim that was at fault and next time I will be less bold in trying to get in behind you by moving towards you from the front In this case He Who Dares Lost

Cheers!
Eboli

I've noticed the ravens tiny legs in example can be brutally hard to hit with srms, they are so skinny the missiles wiz right past them. I wonder if maybe the ravens hitboxes need revisiting though...interesting observations here.

[One Medic Army]

Eboli, on 25 February 2013 - 08:08 PM, said:

I find that Raven 3Ls are an enigma when it comes to damage allocation hits. To me it appears that you have to slowly whittle down all their armour levels and it is quite random where damage actually is allocated. Some hits do not seem to register and I have had cases where I hit a Raven 3L on the nose (front on charge) and it is registering damage on the back torso.

Just last night I decided to take a 6spl Jenner out for a run and was able to intentionally leg a 3L and eventually kill it.

Other Raven variants seen to handle hits where they occur.

BUT, being in Australia my ping is about 250 so all the above comments are being affected by ping/lag.

And yes - One Medic Army and I have a few games with and against each other and OneMA had no problems in hitting me yet the Raven 3Ls proved very elusive. In other words - it was not OneMA's aim that was at fault and next time I will be less bold in trying to get in behind you by moving towards you from the front In this case He Who Dares Lost

Cheers!
Eboli

Twas good playing with (and against) you.

Jenner power!

[MustrumRidcully]

hammerreborn, on 25 February 2013 - 11:15 AM, said:

Exactly. No one cares about an ECM raven with an srm6, it's the perfect storm that's the issue.

ECM makes it stronger than average against LRMs
ECM then makes streaks more effective against other streaks
Streaks make lights cry

Mediums+ laugh at streaks
Mediums+ can't hit ravens due to hitbox/netcode issues
Mediums+ cry



So Spiders < Ravens because Ravens have streaks
But Cicadas < Cents/Hunch because Cicada's low weight
Cents/Hunchs (with ECM) > cicadas because of high weight? (no, because they'd use streaks).

ECM + Streaks are the horriblest combination of items in the game. Nerfing one won't fix the other, which is why all the remove ECM threads are bad. The combination of ECM + Streaks is what's breaking the game balance wise on the most part, and needs to be shattered (basically, like the suggestions that if you have ECM you can't use streaks).

Both ECM and Streak on their own are ill-balanced. Removing ECM would just make Streaks more powerful and give us back those Streak Cats we dreaded before the advent of ECM. (And I am pretty sure they'd fare better than Splatapults, because SRMs are much heavier than Streaks, giving the Streak Cat the option to run larger or heavier engines with no drawbacks).

[Nicholas Carlyle]

jay35, on 25 February 2013 - 06:31 PM, said:

Try teamwork. It's the best way to get rid of a 3L. And that's another reason why the 3L is fine just the way it is: It forces teamwork or you will likely die.
The 3L is punishment for straying from the group in anything that is too slow to rejoin the group before the 3L can pick you apart.

Yes that's great! A 35 ton mech that requires teamwork for assaults and heavies to kill! AWESOME! (Not the mech).

[icey]

jay35, on 25 February 2013 - 06:31 PM, said:

Try teamwork. It's the best way to get rid of a 3L. And that's another reason why the 3L is fine just the way it is: It forces teamwork or you will likely die.
The 3L is punishment for straying from the group in anything that is too slow to rejoin the group before the 3L can pick you apart.

this is kind of dumb. why is the 3L allowed to go out on its own when all the other lights are forced to 'use teamwork'? the natural endpoint of that is if you want to run a light, you run a 3L, and that is indicative of broken game balance - there are no negatives to using one for the vast majority of pilots right now.

hopefully state rewind on lasers has an impact in balancing the light classes a bit better, and the hitboxes on the 3L could definitely use another look, because there's something funky going on there.