139 replies to this topic

[SpiralRazor]

My bet is that the LB10X will be just as useless as it is now, and still sell for 800k.(Should be 400k as per Sarna)



Improving critical damage is not that way to go with multiple-projectile weapons. It does not fix the underlying issues with any of them.


Oh, and umm..fix the range on the LB10X cluster rounds. To my knowledge, there is no effective range difference between the slug and the canister round. Cluster rounds were -1 to hit.

Edited by SpiralRazor, 19 February 2013 - 06:20 PM.

[Tennex]

what are you talking about. tackling problems in roundabout ways that don't address issues is the only way PGI knows how to balance.

[SpiralRazor]

Tennex, on 19 February 2013 - 06:22 PM, said:

what are you talking about. tackling problems in roundabout ways that don't address issues is the only way PGI knows how to balance.

Ah, sorry....apologies... My other thread on the LB10X that made perfect sense, was locked by Niko.

[Tennex]

SpiralRazor, on 19 February 2013 - 06:23 PM, said:

Ah, sorry....apologies... My other thread on the LB10X that made perfect sense, was locked by Niko.

well not doing that would mean, accepting problems instead of sweeping them away. I'm convinced roundabout ways that ignore actual issue is the 6th design pillar in this game.

[Vermaxx]

I've got my founder hunch set up with 3mpulse 3mg, it is still worthless.

I even fell for the hype, thinking it would be better. It isn't, the crit bonus only comes in after armor is dead. So, yeah, first match out I blew some poor *******'s SRM ear off. Of course, having five medium lasers would have done that better.

[Carrioncrows]

It makes absolutely zero sense to have a crit based weapon that requires armor to be peeled off for it to function, when a few moments later "Actual" damage will destroy the whole section, including everything in it.

It would be one thing if we had 75% more structure and only 25% armor. But we don't we have 75% armor and 25% structure.

Not to be harsh about it, but the guy who spend 6 months working on this particular change just wasted six months.

Buff the MG. 0.2 dmg a hit, 10 shots a sec and 200 rounds of ammo a ton. Easy fix.

Edited by Carrioncrows, 21 February 2013 - 08:25 PM.

[Broceratops]

no one said mgs and flamers would be tier 1 weapons. or even useful. just better

[Tennex]

Vermaxx, on 19 February 2013 - 06:35 PM, said:

I've got my founder hunch set up with 3mpulse 3mg, it is still worthless.

I even fell for the hype, thinking it would be better. It isn't, the crit bonus only comes in after armor is dead. So, yeah, first match out I blew some poor *******'s SRM ear off. Of course, having five medium lasers would have done that better.

the bonus doesn't do extra damage. it just destroys the internal components faster. you are better off bringing 2 medium lasers, and actually do damage to the hardpoint.

[Vermaxx]

If they're not useful, PGI needs to stop wasting man-hours pretending they're useful.

[Carrioncrows]

Then what the XXXX is the point of them being in game.

This may be news to most people but BATTLETECH is a mech based game, flamers and Machine guns were in the game when it was ONLY mech versus mech combat.

It was only later when Battletech expanded and introduced vehicles and infantry that Machineguns and flamers got "Bonuses" against those targets.

They are still Battlemech class weapons.

Everyone talks about machine guns and how they are .50 cal weapons or 7.68. It's a 1/2 ton machinegun, you can fit 12.04 Browning M-2 .50 cals in that weight. This isn't a machinegun, it's closer to a cannon.

And yet for all that it might as well be an airsoft gun the way it is implemented.

[Alaric the Arcane]

Carrioncrows, on 19 February 2013 - 06:37 PM, said:

Not to be harsh about it, but the guy who spend 6 months working on this particular change just wasted six months.

LOL... so true

[Bhael Fire]

One of my best mechs sports 2 machine guns and an LB 10-X...and consistently out-performs many other mechs on the field.

There's nothing wrong with MGs and LB 10-X ACs (especially now that they just got buffed) but I'd LOVE if they got a damage buff as well.

Carrioncrows, on 19 February 2013 - 06:37 PM, said:

Buff the MG. 0.1 dmg a hit, 10 shots a sec and 200 rounds of ammo a ton. Easy fix.

This would make an awesome MG variant. Perhaps when (if) they incorporate manufacturer variants something like this will make it into the game. However, I like the fact I can fire my MGs all day long without generating heat; they make excellent harassment weapons.

[Clay Pigeon]

Tennex, on 19 February 2013 - 06:22 PM, said:

what are you talking about. tackling problems in roundabout ways that don't address issues is the only way PGI knows how to balance.

That's not right at all. They also know how to use a sledgehammer for problems best addressed with a scalpel.

[FupDup]

Bhael Fire, on 19 February 2013 - 06:49 PM, said:

One of my best mechs sports 2 machine guns and an LB 10-X...and consistently out-performs many other mechs on the field.

There's nothing wrong with MGs and LB 10-X ACs (especially now that they just got buffed) but I'd LOVE if they got a damage buff as well.




This would make an awesome MG variant. Perhaps when (if) they incorporate manufacturer variants something like this will make it into the game. However, I like the fact I can fire my MGs all day long without generating heat; they make excellent harassment weapons.

What doesn't make an excellent harassment weapon? I do the same thing with medium lasers and streaks (Raven 3L, haters gonna hate) and actually do damage. The Streaks are heat-neutral on every map, including the caldera on Caustic Valley. I can streak all day long without worries of heat. Sometimes I have to stop firing the ML's for a moment or two but otherwise I have no heat issues with my 3L harasser.


And are you sure that the MGs on your mech are even improving your performance? Chances are that using such a bad weapon simply made you a much more skilled player than the guy you're tickling with the MGs.


EDIT: In fact, I'd even go so far as to say that MGs are a terrible harassment weapon. They require you to hold down your fire on the target for quite a few moments for the damage to add up. A simple laser (or even streak) can deal all of its damage much faster and thus allow harassers to take cover while the enemy figures out what just happened.

Edited by FupDup, 19 February 2013 - 07:04 PM.

[Bhael Fire]

FupDup, on 19 February 2013 - 06:54 PM, said:

What doesn't make an excellent harassment weapon?

You're missing the point; MGs are basically freebies for people that have an open ballistic hard point but not enough tonnage to load out a real weapon on that hardpoint. Also, the fact they can fire continuously (keeping the target's HUD lit up and flashing) without generating heat makes them excellent at harassing.

As I've said, I'd LOVE it if they boosted the MGs damage (something on par with a small laser), but it doesn't bother me because I don't think of them as weapons as much as something to throw on your mech if you have the tonnage spare but not enough tonnage to put heavier weapons on.

[FupDup]

Bhael Fire, on 19 February 2013 - 07:05 PM, said:

You're missing the point; MGs are basically freebies for people that have an open ballistic hard point but not enough tonnage to load out a real weapon on that hardpoint. Also, the fact they can fire continuously (keeping the target's HUD lit up and flashing) without generating heat makes them excellent at harassing.

As I've said, I'd LOVE it if they boosted the MGs damage (something on par with a small laser), but it doesn't bother me because I don't think of them as weapons as much as something to throw on your mech if you have the tonnage spare but not enough tonnage to put heavier weapons on.

Here's a late-edit I made to my post while you were replying (thus you might not have seen it):

FupDup, on 19 February 2013 - 06:54 PM, said:

EDIT: In fact, I'd even go so far as to say that MGs are a terrible harassment weapon. They require you to hold down your fire on the target for quite a few moments for the damage to add up. A simple laser (or even streak) can deal all of its damage much faster and thus allow harassers to take cover while the enemy figures out what just happened.

The constant rate of fire isn't as good for harassers as it sounds, because if the enemy is in your line of sight that means you can be in theirs real soon if you don't stay on the move. MGs only do halfway decent damage if you hold down the trigger on one spot for an extended time...time that your enemy can use to react. If you go from cover to cover and only fire a few MG shots to prevent time wasting, then the damage is so negligible that simply firing any laser or a streak would do its damage much faster and thus let you take cover without sacrificing damage output. Get in, fire some shots, then get out and repeat it again from a different angle.

And, as said, my streaks are 100% heat-neutral on every map out there. No heat problems whatsoever. Medium lasers I can fire most of the time but occasionally need to hold fire for a few moments or switch to linked-fire. The MG's lack of heat buildup isn't really that great.


Also, about the tonnage filler thing: I would much rather fill up that spare tonnage with any of the following: ammo for my other ballistics/missiles, some medium lasers (if energy hardpoints are available), some DHS (if critical spaces permit), and/or a Streak SRM2 (if there's a missile hardpoint available). Or just leave the ballistic slot empty.

The MG thing doesn't affect me personally because, like I've said, I'm a career 3L pilot. I eat Spiders, Cicadas, and Raven 4x's that think they're useful to their team by using MGs. I'm just arguing on the matter of principle/philosophy.

Edited by FupDup, 19 February 2013 - 07:32 PM.

[Carrioncrows]

Bhael Fire, on 19 February 2013 - 07:05 PM, said:

You're missing the point; MGs are basically freebies for people that have an open ballistic hard point but not enough tonnage to load out a real weapon on that hardpoint. Also, the fact they can fire continuously (keeping the target's HUD lit up and flashing) without generating heat makes them excellent at harassing.

They are not freebies. They are 1.5 tons minimum and add the risk of ammo explosion.

1.5 tons better spent on Weapons, Ammo, Armor, Engine, heat sinks or just about anything else.

[Michael Costanza]

Regarding the -1 to hit.. that's basically covered by the shotgun effect hitting a wider area than a single autocannon projectile would...

[Vermaxx]

Current MGs might as well be empty spaces. You have to load at least one ton of ammo, making them 1.5 tons for the first unit. That is not "something you throw on your mech."

Tabletop MGs do an appreciable amount of damage per hit. I'd much rather see them function like AC2s - cooldown fire weapons with a single slug hitting for two damage.

[Kyrie]

At present the MGs are still quite underwhelming. The base damage needs to increase significantly for them to be a viable weapon system. As has been pointed out, the "crit-seeking" is simply not that useful -- compare 1.5t of MG vs 1t of ML.