78 replies to this topic

[Zylo]

Kyone Akashi, on 25 February 2013 - 04:32 PM, said:

Glad you had fun. I would say your opponents did not, seeing as you robbed them of a chance to actually have a fight.

Lag wasn't as bad in CB as it got when the game went into Open Beta, so I think that's another thing you may misremember. I had a Streak launcher and used it simply because it was more reliable than a set of dumbfire SRMs with shotgun spread when chasing another Light. Normal SRMs on the other hand were superior against bigger/heavier 'Mechs, but against those I had my four MedLas.

I agree that Streaks weren't as dangerous as they are today - they could actually miss, especially in a knife fight.
It's rather ironic that a bugfix made them so controversial. Back then, you really had to consider whether you wanted something against fast-movers or slow but better armored targets. Nowadays, it almost seems as if SSRM have become as useful as SRM4, simply because you can launch them from almost any angle and they always hit. You need to be a very good shot to achieve the same result with normal SRMs, and even if you are it requires you to face your target.

And then there's the connectivity issues ... I think it was just a week ago that I managed to hurl 4 SRMs into the shoulder of a teammate who stood 10 meters next to my actual target. The server decided I should be nudged a few degrees just as I fired ...

Well there was never a plan for the enemy to have fun, it was more a teamwork move where the a light would give up the kill on the enemy to remove that enemy as fast as possible. This left the friendly light(s) free to score more kills overall against larger less manuverable targets. There is nothing fair about the tactic, it was done to increase the chance of winning.

I agree that lag was generally far less in closed beta but there were the occasional lagging lights and fast mediums that had to be knocked down since they were warping bad.

The other problem with streaks now seems to be related to Artemis. I'm not sure if that ever will be fixed.

I have I think 23 mechs right now and only have 2 mechs with streaks mounted - 1 of the Trebuchet versions I'm testing as a light killer and of course my 3L. My founders Jenner D is waiting for knockdowns to return...

[Broceratops]

one of the few moments i remember clearly in the tourney - I thought I was going to kill wispsy because he was bright red everything, had him locked, fired my streaks, and somehow they took an incredibly errant turn right back into my bright red CT. so yeah I TK'd myself with my own streaks.

in 485 games I killed myself twice. the other time I majorly overheated out of bounds in upper city in that one little area where you can be bounds but really its still a fight heavy part of the map

[Galathon Redd]

mwhighlander, on 25 February 2013 - 03:30 PM, said:

LOL

If you take ssrms away from the Ravens, they are absolutely harmless.

I know a lot of Gaussraven pilots from Closed Beta that would disagree (And there was QQing about Gaussravens back then, too). Hell, I know an AC20-raven and a 2LL-raven in my corp that would disagree. Snipe, beyotches!

Just because it's cookie-cutter doesn't mean it's the only way to succeed. It just means it's most popular (likely because it's easy). Popular =/= best, or we'd all still be wearing bell-bottoms.

[Rippthrough]

My guassraven and AC20 raven were beasts. Pity they broke them

As for the 3L, mine has had SRM's on for a while....

[Zylo]

Gaan Cathal, on 25 February 2013 - 04:34 PM, said:

I'll grant you I never played Closed Beta, but why do you seem to think that this kind of gameplay would be better than what we have now? Knockdowns/collision damage should be a deterrent to driving into people to lag-transition through them. The footage I've seen of Bowling Dragons doesn't look much like a game that would see any success and, restricting the point to lights...if you exclude SSRMs, light-on-light combat requires skill to win (a varying amount depending on the opposition, granted). If not only a tactic, but the best tactic was just to run full pelt into the other guy and hope your team killed him before his team killed you...well then it wouldn't. It would be a basically skillless faceroll fest.

Dragon bowling was exploiting an incorrect mass setting for the dragon of 100tons. This allowed them to knock over mechs as if they were a fast moving Atlas.

Crashing into enemy lights was done to save time. From the time of collision your team could kill the enemy light with focused fire in a few seconds. There was little reason for light pilots to waste time in a 1 on 1 fight that might last a few minutes. If you could drop that enemy light in 5 seconds and then go score 3 or 4 more kills against easy slow targets it didn't matter much that you might give up 1 kill against an enemy light. In the end the rewards were better crashing into the enemy light, letting the team kill it and then being free to do whatever you wanted to the enemy LRM boats.


Light on light combat often results in circling, even in the days before ECM and lots of SSRM2 use. Circling is a common tactic from the MW2 days to make the lag lead distance as large as possible. That's why lights often try to do it, especially if they happen to be lagging.

Greater lag than the enemy != skill

Edited by Zylo, 25 February 2013 - 04:53 PM.

[Mystere]

Is this request similar to the ones people make in other MMOs in which they demand that rangers face them in melee combat instead of using stealth and long range weapons? I am asking because I found those requests absolutely silly.

[Cache]

One Medic Army, on 25 February 2013 - 03:26 PM, said:

The assault mechs are gunna hate this, and the Jenners are gunna love it.

Was running my Founder's Jenner on and off all weekend. I haven't used streaks in it since ECM came out--SRMs and MLs only. Yes, I love it and it wasn't just the assaults hating it.

Edited by Cache, 25 February 2013 - 05:16 PM.

[Mazgazine1]

I use an srm 6 and a streak 2 and 3 medium lasers in my Ravel 3L..

Soo uhh been there done that...

[Zylo]

Mystere, on 25 February 2013 - 04:52 PM, said:

Is this request similar to the ones people make in other MMOs in which they demand that rangers face them in melee combat instead of using stealth and long range weapons? I am asking because I found those requests absolutely silly.

Not exactly but it's close enough.

[Gaan Cathal]

Zylo, on 25 February 2013 - 04:52 PM, said:

Dragon bowling was exploiting an incorrect mass setting for the dragon of 100tons. This allowed them to knock over mechs as if they were a fast moving Atlas.

I did not know that, appreciated.

Zylo, on 25 February 2013 - 04:52 PM, said:

Crashing into enemy lights was done to save time. From the time of collision your team could kill the enemy light with focused fire in a few seconds. There was little reason for light pilots to waste time in a 1 on 1 fight that might last a few minutes. If you could drop that enemy light in 5 seconds and then go score 3 or 4 more kills against easy slow targets it didn't matter much that you might give up 1 kill against an enemy light. In the end the rewards were better crashing into the enemy light, letting the team kill it and then being free to do whatever you wanted to the enemy LRM boats.

I get that. I would do that, were the mechanic in play. Doesn't make it good gameplay.

Zylo, on 25 February 2013 - 04:52 PM, said:

Light on light combat often results in circling, even in the days before ECM and lots of SSRM2 use. Circling is a common tactic from the MW2 days to make the lag lead distance as large as possible. That's why lights often try to do it, especially if they happen to be lagging.

Greater lag than the enemy != skill

Circling happens in any game where you are fighting individual A and need to keep up speed to avoid being killed by individuals C, D and E. The lag-maximisation is a side benefit, and it's one that both benefit from. The relative pings etc should remain fairly even for both parties, so there's no net benefit.

Besides which, a circlejerking light pilot will generally loose to a light pilot that can do something else. It happens a lot because it's the easiest way to play a light, not the best.

[Sable Dove]

I see your challenge, and raise.

[Z0MBIE Y0SHI]

I slap a SRM6 on my Raven now and again.

If lag shield was completely non existent I'd use it more often.

Then of course there's my PPC Raven which is always good for a good lul

[Elessar]

I am just a part time light mech pilot (Commandos)
and I see it as one of my duties, to protect the big guys from other light mechs.

Well, if I would just attack assault/heavy/medium mechs, I would not hesitate to use normal SRMs,
I would also not hesitate to use only normal SRMs, if I knew that the nasty other light mechs (especially ravens) all only use normal SRMs.

But with the current status quo, where it is the norm to encounter light mechs with SSRMs I would weaken my team if I took normal SRMs, as the chances for me losing a battle with normal SRMs against a raven who uses SSRMs are rather high.

This also means that chooosing SRMs and not SSRMs would weaken myy team, as I would become useless if I would fall to the first light mech who uses SSRMs, without doing at least an almost equal aamount of damage to him as he does to me

[Mad Cat II]

Catalinasgrace, on 25 February 2013 - 03:31 PM, said:

Yes but I suspect nobody will take me up on my challenge anyway because they will LOSE and they might actually have to do something besides lock and fire... People like the easy button and easy win...

They would not do it BECAUSE than the Raven 3L would be crap again. I personally dont complain about people who play the game. Its called strats

[Halfbreed]

I rock a Jenner and a love killing tree buckets (some guy on in game chat called them that once and it stuck with me and my friends), but yeah they don't give me issues in my light mechs and for some reason we loving hunting them down, like will run past half damaged mechs to kill a tree bucket if we see one.

But yeah, I do rock 2 SSRM2s on one of my Jenners, on an other I rock all lazers and on the third I rock lazers and SRM6 and I do about the same Damage and kills with all three.

[Catalinasgrace]

Mystere, on 25 February 2013 - 04:52 PM, said:

Is this request similar to the ones people make in other MMOs in which they demand that rangers face them in melee combat instead of using stealth and long range weapons? I am asking because I found those requests absolutely silly.

Nope, I'm loving my spiders, and other lights... The thing that is killing me over the ssrms is this... LRMs actually fly slow enough that in real life there is NO way they would stay airborne ever... Srms they are kind of zippy and seem normalish... Ssrms, yeah those fly at mach 4 and have the ability to be fired blindly. Example: I'm literally 5-10 meters off the tail feathers of a Raven or Commando right... They can lock me with 360 and turn forward, then fire. Those Ssrms can fire forward and zip around fast enough to slam me in the face so to put this in simple terms for you. Even though they fire forward they might as well be firing backwards because that is what they are actually doing... Hmmm, seems real to me... Yeah right... They are easy mode and nothing more, plain and simple...

[Lorcan Lladd]

SRMs should be viable for a Light 'Mech again.
Until Phase 3, you could expect the enemy team to receive one Light 'Mech to balance your own, which forced 'Mech builds specialized in destroying other Light 'Mechs, usually employing SSRMs - as weight balance is now only a secondary factor in matchmaking, though, it is perfectly possible to use SRMs instead and concentrate on backstabbing heavier 'Mechs.

Probably not optimal, though.
A CN9-D could move almost as fast as a Light 'Mech and pack as much punch as the JR7-D with more armor and internal structural health.

[Silentium]

I already use arms, the damage output is superior if less reliable (in my hands anyway). Even when I was driving a 3L, I preferred a 6 shooter. I'm not going to disparage anyone their loadout though, bring what you like.

[Mystere]

Catalinasgrace, on 25 February 2013 - 06:44 PM, said:

Nope, I'm loving my spiders, and other lights... The thing that is killing me over the ssrms is this... LRMs actually fly slow enough that in real life there is NO way they would stay airborne ever... Srms they are kind of zippy and seem normalish... Ssrms, yeah those fly at mach 4 and have the ability to be fired blindly. Example: I'm literally 5-10 meters off the tail feathers of a Raven or Commando right... They can lock me with 360 and turn forward, then fire. Those Ssrms can fire forward and zip around fast enough to slam me in the face so to put this in simple terms for you. Even though they fire forward they might as well be firing backwards because that is what they are actually doing... Hmmm, seems real to me... Yeah right... They are easy mode and nothing more, plain and simple...

So, it's just like a melee warrior asking the easy mode ranger to stop popping from stealth, shooting him from behind, and then going back into stealth. Got it.

[Catalinasgrace]

no it's really not Mystere... If you don't want to do it then don't do it... That is your second post with the same words within it, you aren't going to get it no matter how it is spelled out for you so have fun with that... My point is the Ssrms can be used in a way that is EASY mode and if you have to use them to kill another light and brag about it as some do that is ok. Then I say man up butter cup, remove them and see how good you are. It's easy to understand really, and nothing complicated about it... I don't have any issues with ECM, jump snipping, or the other 50 things people normally do. However when a missile can come out of the tube and do an about face and hit you between the eyes when you are 10 meters behind them doing 151kph something is wrong with that.