152 replies to this topic

[PhoenixFire55]

Galenit, on 26 February 2013 - 05:27 AM, said:

You have said 3 different things until now with your numbers ...
If you use numbers it should be more consistent.

Please type your statement again, try to say clearly what you want and give the source of the numbers you use for it, then we can talk again.

I do not assume any numbers. My point is...

If PUGs are the majority (90% PUGs to 10% premades etc.) then even with the matchmaker we had in closed beta that was dropping 8 man premades vs 8 PUGs, the percent of games a PUG player will be stomped by premades is very low - 10% tops if ALL premades are groups of 8 which of course isn't true and about 2% tops if 1 out of 5 groups is full 8-man. With matchmaking we have now part of those premades are doing 8 vs 8 drops that have its own separate que, which means that percent of PUG-stomps is even less and is not an issue at all. If somebody is getting stomped in his games he has only himself and other PUGs to blame for it.

If neither PUGs/premades are the majority (50% PUGs to 50% premades etc.) then there is a almost a certain chance that both teams will have premades on their side. If 20% (again 1 of 5) of premades are full 8-man premade then there is a 10% chance to run into a full 8-man premade (still haveing some sort of premades on your side). Chances of full 8-man premade dropping vs 8 solo players are negliable, thus chances of getting a PUG-stomp are again very low.

If premades are the majority (90% premades to 10% PUGs)(unlikely I know but lets cover this too) then all stomp-games are one premades stomping another premades, and such thing as PUG-stomp does not exsist at all.

In all situations chances of true 8-man premade stomping true PUG team do not exceed 2-3%. If a solo player is getting stomped in more then 2-3% of his game he can not blame premades for it, he can only blame himself, other PUGs, his luck, whatever. The whole 'premades keep stomping us' cries are based on assumption that every time you are getting stomped you are stomped by premades, while in truth most of PUG-stomps are PUG teams stomping PUG teams.

A valid point was made that when a full 8-man premade drops against a team that is not a full 8-man premade chances of them winning are almost certain. But again, people are working together and training together to achieve victory over people who do not work together. I can not understand why is it unfair.

Their win/loss ratio might be astronomical ... but so what? Who cares about it? It means nothing, true skill or lack of such for organized units will be seen by everyone when community warfare comes out.

A lot of solo players accuse premades of caring bout their KRD and win/loss ratio while it truth it is themselves who care about it. Only way to achieve ridiculous KDR and win/loss ratio is to be part of a unit. Solo players do not want to be part of it (and it is their right, organized units respect that right), yet same time they are jealous of those high KDR and win/loss ratio. Because if they weren't jealous, then why would they bring KDR and win/loss ratio up in the first place?


In short, the message I am trying to state here:
- True PUG-stomps are happening in 2-3% of games tops.
- If a solo player is getting stomped in more then 2-3% of his games, then premades (sync-dropping or not) has nothing to do with this rate being more then 2-3%, thus they have no right to complain about premades ruining game for them.

[Novakaine]

Team work aint the problem.
It's the total lack of anything for the teams to do.
Sure for the COD'er all is well.
But the rest of us.
Not so.
Nuff said.
And on a side note I will not be silenced
I shall stand fast and unbowed.
Until I see a Foozie Bear halo for my cockpit!
Wocka Wocka C-Bills Baby

[grayson marik]

SlXSlXSlX, on 26 February 2013 - 05:01 AM, said:

They have a queue for that already, its call 8 man. They jsut want to take their op builds, their 8 man teams, cut them in half, and throw them at new and inexperienced players in the random queue. That they had gotten away with it for this many months, and recently had it "taken away", explains why theyre so mad.

Really? Ok, lets face the fact: PGI invented the 4 player group sync dropping when it launched the MM phase 1 break of the 8v8 queue!

And then, to put this on perspective just imagine you are a team player for a second...

1. You joined MWO with the anticipation that some way, you would drop with your friends against other friends of yours to have some good time playing.

2. You found out that this is not working, but sync dropping with 8 sometimes gets you matched up against a wanted other team so you made peace with that so far and used sync drops.
Sadly, the times the sync did not work out, you where facing either an other team as expected or pugs - there the pugstomping tale begun.

3. PGI made announcements about the evolution of MM in phase one, two and three, having private matches intermingled in the statement for phase 2

4. PGI stopped 8v8 groups from working and forced the 4v4 down the players collective throat -Thereby PGI invented the 4 +4 syncdroping and pugstomping.


5. the 8v8 queue returned without any weightbalancing or whatever next to the groups of 4 / PUG queue but syncdropping still worked sometimes. Unfortunately a lot of players still where not always able to get 8 ppl rdy to drop and used the 4 men groups... what can I say? It was and is lame. Remember? this was MM phase 2 - that thing with the private match announcement intermingled.. but still there where none but..well, you again swallowed it because 8v8 was back and syncdrops still worked in the 8v8...mostly

5.5 You made the experience that for the complete missing of balancing on the 8v8 queue, if you missed your syncdrop, you are likely to run into a different group with a droplayout you just tryed to avoid by syncdropping with your friends

6. PGI implemented MM Phase 3 with ELO and made the syncdrop again more difficult to succeed. And still, no way for you to finally get into a decent team match!


7. you go on the forums and ask, that the inclusion of a lobby is to be done a.s.a.p, backed up by the fact that the very same dev team advertised the their game with YOUR community made tournament on the main page just days ago.
And guess what you get? Something like " yeah maybe later with CW ... but well we are still in the design phase for CW and ahm.. no, we wont tell you anything about how exactly that will be looking. And yes, we love competitive gaming and we care..."

7.5 So you finally register that you just got a big bad middle finger right into your face and a fist into your other end, from the dev team you supported with you money so far

8. Some guy with bad behavior like you sir, comes around the corner and tells you you are a gamebreaking a.ss.hole while you just suggest one of the features that would ease the pugstomping problem if not solve it with proper implementation!

9. You wake up, realize that you are still a pug player and that YOU are the guy with the bad behavior.


And now you ask, why team players feel cheated by the direction the game goes?
Now you dare to ask why the overall playernumbers slowly start to drop except on patch days +1 or 2 days?

Come on, face it: the shine of a new toy is off MWO!
And no new mech and no new map or camo will solve the boringness and frustration that comes from random matches, poised by groups syncdropping or from syncdrops, that fail and end with opponents neither of the involved teams wanted to play against.

Only implementation of the tiny little communication helpers like chat hotkeys will ease the communication advance TS groups have over pugs

And only a lobby will enable groups to play like they want without interfering with your pug drops! And this will stay the same, no matter how much you screw around with ELO or whatshowever.

Edited by grayson marik, 26 February 2013 - 06:58 AM.

[Galenit]

Phoenix

Lets take your 10% premadeplayers:
We have 80 players, thats 5 games with 16.
8 players are premade, they can influence 1 out of 5 games, thats 20%.
2x 4 man premade, they influence 1-2 games, thats 20-40% of all games.

Now lets do it again with 20% premadeplayers:
16 out of 80 are premadeplayers.
2x 8 man can influence 20-40% of the games.
4x 4 man can influence 20-80% of the games.

The chances are more to the higher numbers, because the 2 8mans will only met in the same game in 1 of 5 cases, so in 80% of the games they are not in the same game.

Edited by Galenit, 26 February 2013 - 06:58 AM.

[grayson marik]

Galenit, on 26 February 2013 - 06:52 AM, said:

Phoenix

ILets take your 10% premadeplayers:
We have 80 players, thats 5 games with 16.
8 players are premade, they can influence 1 out of 5 games, thats 20%.
2x 4 man premade, they influence 1-2 games, thats 20-40% of all games.

Not lets do it again with 20% premadeplayers:
16 out of 80 are premadeplayers.
2x 8 man can influence 20-40% of the games.
4x 4 man can influence 20-80% of the games.

The chances are more to the higher numbers, because the 2 8mans will only met in the same game in 1 of 5 cases, so in 80% of the games they are not in the same game.

And to which conclusion brings you that nice little number toying?

Would a lobby ease that problem when most of the premades ( which have no intend playing pugs, believe me) are dropping there and leave you with the other pugs to do your thing?

Edited by grayson marik, 26 February 2013 - 06:57 AM.

[PhoenixFire55]

SlXSlXSlX, on 26 February 2013 - 05:33 AM, said:

Fixed that for you.

And again a person that can not make any sensible arguments makes it personal. We all can see this now, don't try to pretend you care about this game being improved in any way.

[KinLuu]

Most of the premades do exactly intend to battle pugs.

At least those on the three public voiceservers.

[PhoenixFire55]

Thirdstar, on 26 February 2013 - 05:42 AM, said:

I said citations, not numbers pulled from your nether regions.

Here I can do it too, 100% of all premade eats babies. 100% of all PUGs murder kittens. 33% of premades worship the Old Gods, but only 40% of PUGs eat bacon.

Apparently this is the logic behind ELO.

Edited by PhoenixFire55, 26 February 2013 - 07:03 AM.

[PhoenixFire55]

ferranis, on 26 February 2013 - 05:54 AM, said:

After people read phoenix` posts i realy wonder why the hate against premades/him. Cant point my finger on it...

If I can help make this game better and more fair for everyone I don't really care if people will hate me for that.

Everything that I have said here is my attempt to show people why from my point of view ELO is wrong and unfair. A lot if not most of what people who quote my posts say are just personal insults. If you want to hate me and like them, feel free.

[Galenit]

grayson marik, on 26 February 2013 - 06:57 AM, said:

And to which conclusion brings you that nice little number toying?

Would a lobby ease that problem when most of the premades ( which have no intend playing pugs, believe me) are dropping there and leave you with the other pugs to do your thing?

The conclusion we have some post ago:
Quickchat (together with elo it maybe will make the separation of queues obsolete)
Lobby (for tournaments and planned matches, zylo is right about abusing potential)
pug/premade queues (last resort if the other things dont work right)

There must be a way for the players to play it "their way", we have pug/premade players as seperationpoint and competive/fun players as another. Best will be a solution to let them all play together, but competive/fun will be much harder to do then pug/premade ....

[OneEyed Jack]

I could give a crap about people that want to play on teams, and don't figure this thread is worth actually reading, having read the OP. But I'll toss out a couple things to consider (which may have already been mentioned).

The players who want to group for actual competitive reasons are a tiny minority, which is why catering to them is not a priority. They could literally all leave without significantly affecting the player population. The vast majority of people playing in groups are either playing casually with friends and are totally non-competitive, or just want easy wins to make them feel better about being such losers. If as many of the people who demanded the 8-man queue actually wanted to play the way the OP suggests, then an accepted policy would have emerged between them, unofficially governing team construction and the players would have simply accepted the occasional stomp by the rare team that didn't follow the protocol. But it didn't, because they don't.

If a lobby that allows players to pick their opponents is ever added, then the people demanding it because they "just want to play their way" will also want rewards for doing so. I mean, why would they just play for fun what they demanded to be able to play for fun? That wouldn't make sense! Rather, they'll want even greater rewards, because they're "making it challenging" so it takes longer and they can't farm as well... the same as they demanded when the 8-man queue opened. I'll go the other way and say that if there are any rewards at all, then the whole thing will just turn into a bunch of win-trading and the game will be well and truly ruined.

[ferranis]

PhoenixFire55, on 26 February 2013 - 07:09 AM, said:

If I can help make this game better and more fair for everyone I don't really care if people will hate me for that.

Everything that I have said here is my attempt to show people why from my point of view ELO is wrong and unfair. A lot if not most of what people who quote my posts say are just personal insults. If you want to hate me and like them, feel free.

Nope, you want to make the game better for you, be honest.

[Kraven Kor]

Thirdstar, on 26 February 2013 - 03:23 AM, said:

I'm quite confused. As far as I know, no one has ever said a Lobby SHOULDN'T be implemented.

Heck, I've been asking for one since the start of Open Beta.

There have been a few players, myself one, who worry that lobbies would lead to stat-manipulation and farming.

It isn't so much "I don't want them" as much as "they won't work in the current setup of MWO."

So long as the game is set up such that players need to "grind" XP and CBills and unlocks and such, then some type of random matchmaker is necessary. In my opinion.

Community Warfare will be particularly difficult to make work fairly if they were to move to a lobby system where you can pick a server or somehow choose who you will be fighting against.

Edited by Kraven Kor, 26 February 2013 - 07:27 AM.

[Galenit]

PhoenixFire55, on 26 February 2013 - 07:09 AM, said:

If I can help make this game better and more fair for everyone I don't really care if people will hate me for that.

Everything that I have said here is my attempt to show people why from my point of view ELO is wrong and unfair. A lot if not most of what people who quote my posts say are just personal insults. If you want to hate me and like them, feel free.

Why do you not say a word about the numbers i showed you.
They all based on your statement and numbers ...
Please show me the math behind your conclusion and show me that iam wrong.

[PhoenixFire55]

Galenit, on 26 February 2013 - 06:52 AM, said:

Phoenix

Lets take your 10% premadeplayers:
We have 80 players, thats 5 games with 16.
8 players are premade, they can influence 1 out of 5 games, thats 20%.
2x 4 man premade, they influence 1-2 games, thats 20-40% of all games.

Now lets do it again with 20% premadeplayers:
16 out of 80 are premadeplayers.
2x 8 man can influence 20-40% of the games.
4x 4 man can influence 20-80% of the games.

The chances are more to the higher numbers, because the 2 8mans will only met in the same game in 1 of 5 cases, so in 80% of the games they are not in the same game.

4x 4 man influenceing 80% games happens with probability 0.192. So they will still most likely influence less games then they theoretically can.

Influencing a game and PUG-stomping a game are different things. I was trying to show that real PUG-stomps of 8 people from SAME premade working together are very rare occasions.

- If there are 4 people from one unit and 4 people from another or 4 groups of 2 people from all different units it is a different situation.
- Solo-players always complained about getting stomped by 8 people from same unit either just grouped up (in closed beta) or sync-dropped. If two groups of 4 people from same unit will drop into one game but into different teams then by your logic they will 'influence' the game, but same time PUG-stomp will never happen, again - different situation.

Your logic is correct, but it is somewhat different from what I meant to show.

[KingCobra]

KinLuu, on 26 February 2013 - 02:20 AM, said:

Noone with a sane mind really complains about players playing in teams.
The complaint is that premades are matched with the pugs. This is a bad system, there should be two seperate queues.

This is a very true statement and it is the root problem. Over this last year like some of you I have tried to get PGI to see the need for a (Lobby) a MM system that promotes player growth by segregating trial/stock vs trial/stock and pugs and premades having there own ques. But PGI seems Hellll bent on destruction or there scared that 3rd party leagues will form like in past MechWarrior games and no one will play the core game. This is just not so if PGI fixes a few things and has a core planetary league for stock and customs and teams they will in fact start gaining a bigger player base.

[Thirdstar]

Kraven Kor, on 26 February 2013 - 07:25 AM, said:

There have been a few players, myself one, who worry that lobbies would lead to stat-manipulation and farming.

It isn't so much "I don't want them" as much as "they won't work in the current setup of MWO."

So long as the game is set up such that players need to "grind" XP and CBills and unlocks and such, then some type of random matchmaker is necessary. In my opinion.

Community Warfare will be particularly difficult to make work fairly if they were to move to a lobby system where you can pick a server or somehow choose who you will be fighting against.

Perhaps a lobby that only allows you to setup your own team from in-game would be better. Just throwing out ideas here, I'm sure there are other ways where you can make a lobby work without having it become an exploit.

[PhoenixFire55]

KinLuu, on 26 February 2013 - 07:02 AM, said:

Most of the premades do exactly intend to battle pugs.

At least those on the three public voiceservers.

No. Some do. Some do not.

There is nothing wrong in battling PUGs by the way. As long as you aren't gloating and insulting them (which very few premades do) it is only for the benefit of PUGs and this game. Team-based game should encourage people in a team (especially if it is a PUG team) to communicate. If PUG teams used comms then only advantage premades could use would have been their training together.

What I don't understand is why people who are willingly playing TEAM game and REFUSE to use any form of communication accuse people who do use communication in cheating and exploiting. If you don't want to communicate with anyone play a different game that is solo-based or wait untill MWO will introduce 1 on 1 drops.

[Thirdstar]

PhoenixFire55, on 26 February 2013 - 07:38 AM, said:

There is nothing wrong in battling PUGs by the way. As long as you aren't gloating and insulting them (which very few premades do) it is only for the benefit of PUGs and this game.

If PUG teams used comms then only advantage premades could use would have been their training together.

If you don't want to communicate with anyone play a different game that is solo-based or wait untill MWO will introduce 1 on 1 drops.

Summary:

PUGs should stop being PUGs, then they'd be happy. Why? Because I said so.

Also I wish all the casuals would just leave this game so that it dies.

HOW are you so thick headed?

[Doc Holliday]

I am not going to debate or argue anything.

I am simply going to say that as a mostly lone wolf and sometimes group player, I support the OP.