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Flamers: Myths Dispelled


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Poll: Flamers: Myths Dispelled (23 member(s) have cast votes)

do you agree with this suggestion

  1. yes (6 votes [26.09%])

    Percentage of vote: 26.09%

  2. no (6 votes [26.09%])

    Percentage of vote: 26.09%

  3. BURN IT ALL!!! (11 votes [47.83%])

    Percentage of vote: 47.83%

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#1 blinkin

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 03:09 AM

many people have been thoroughly mislead on the nature of flamers. it is often called a very weak and ineffective weapon. the problem with this sentiment is that flamers are not a weapon at all.

flamers are actually low tech early form of electronic warfare. the confusion comes from the fact that as a side effect of their use, flamers deal a small amount of damage. this damage amount is far too small to be useful in most cases. as a result many people claim it is a useless weapon. this statement is much like complaining that the under side of a bridge makes an awful house because it doesn't have enough walls.

often times people try to boat flamers as a result of the confusion. these attempts are only slightly more effective than boating TAG.

now lets go into the actual proper use of the flamer.

much like TAG, flamers are a piece of electronic warfare equipment that is equipped in the energy slot of a battlemech. also like TAG the player must hold down the trigger to operate flamers.

the major difference is the purpose of the systems. TAG is used for aiding missile targeting. flamers are a peice of equipment that act to reduce the awareness of a mech. in this way they are much more like ECM.

when fired at the cockpit of a mech the flamer can partially or completely disrupt all visual capabilities of that mech. this will effectively disrupt any vision mode (standard, thermal, or nightvision). weapons systems that acquire lock will still work effectively but aiming of any other weapon system becomes difficult, if not outright impossible. standard navigation is also severely hindered leading to mechs becoming disoriented and often running into stationary objects.

also a contribution from one of the people posting on the thread that expands upon this:

View PostHarmAssassin, on 09 April 2013 - 02:26 PM, said:

Actually flamers weren't really designed to be fired at mechs at all. They were designed to start forest and brush fires to fight infantry, and to create heat hazards for enemy mechs (and to blind the enemy with smoke from the fires). They were never designed for use as a primary weapon.

along with the minor damage that is associated with the system, targets also suffer from a small amount of additional heat. this heat amount is only enough to counteract 2 single heatsinks, and should not be heavily relied upon.

flamers do produce enough heat that sustained fire can easily push up the heat scale on a mech. as a result an enemy mech cannot be disabled indefinitely. breaks must be taken every so often to allow your mech to cool down. also the range of this system is limited to approximately 64m. so mechs must be in relatively close to blind an opponent.

Edited by blinkin, 09 April 2013 - 08:25 PM.


#2 Stringburka

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 03:26 AM

While I agree that this is a useful thing to do with them, I generally find that it's not worth it. One ton and one energy slot is enough for another medium laser, and those are always great (and the heat caused by the flamer prevents it from being a low-heat alternative). If I run a fast 'mech I need all the firepower I can get, if I run a slow 'mech the effectiveness of the flamer is reduced since I'm probably large and easy to hit anyway.

If the heat buildup from using a flamer was drastically reduced (to say .2) or the heat buildup on the target was increased enough to actually matter (to say .6) it might be more useful, but as is, I still think they're sucky at what they do.

Edited by Stringburka, 26 February 2013 - 03:26 AM.


#3 blinkin

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 10:49 AM

bump to get this thread seen during datlight hours.

#4 Elder Thorn

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 11:38 AM

people tell it a useless weapon, because it causes more heat to yourself than to your target.
and the blinding effect.. well, nice idea to use it tbh, but somone (maybe it was you) tried to use that on me once, the bad thing for him was, that it isn't that hard to find the source of that fire fountain in your face and put an alpha or two in that direction... well.. ok, i was distracted for a few seconds, but his mech was a pile of junk...

Edited by Elder Thorn, 26 February 2013 - 11:40 AM.


#5 blinkin

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 11:41 AM

View PostElder Thorn, on 26 February 2013 - 11:38 AM, said:

people tell it a useless weapon, because it causes more heat to yourself than to your target.
and the blinding effect.. well, nice idea to use it tbh, but somone (maybe it was you) tried to use that on me once, the bad thing for him was, that it isn't that hard to find the source of that fire fountain in your face and put and alpha or two in that direction... well.. ok, i was distracted for a few seconds, but his mech was a pile of junk...

my jenner with 2 flamers only goes around 110-120kph (kinda slow for a light mech) but is by far my most survivable build. my other two jenners go much faster but still die much more quickly.

#6 Elder Thorn

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 11:44 AM

View Postblinkin, on 26 February 2013 - 11:41 AM, said:

my jenner with 2 flamers only goes around 110-120kph (kinda slow for a light mech) but is by far my most survivable build. my other two jenners go much faster but still die much more quickly.


yeah ok, wasn't you then, was a dragon i think ;)

actually... the blinding effect should be very helpfull when using a light i guess

#7 Corvus Antaka

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 12:49 PM

The flamer needs to cause enough heat to targets so that unbalanced mechs like 6 ppc stalkers become unusable when flamed, and mechs running a balanced heat loadout need to sacrifice some firepower or risk overheating slightly more. In terms of heat added flamers still feel very ineffective imho.

#8 blinkin

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 01:22 PM

bump to continue my experiment

current readings as collected from the environment:
http://mwomercs.com/...-flamer-toohot/
http://mwomercs.com/...flamers-coming/

#9 blinkin

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 01:41 AM

bump

#10 blinkin

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 09:48 AM

bump

#11 Sable Dove

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 12:36 PM

It might be nice if it didn't also produce a fair amount of heat on the user and also reduce their maximum heat capacity.
Flamers are currently more damaging to the user than the target.

#12 blinkin

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 12:27 PM

View PostSable Dove, on 12 March 2013 - 12:36 PM, said:

It might be nice if it didn't also produce a fair amount of heat on the user and also reduce their maximum heat capacity.
Flamers are currently more damaging to the user than the target.

it seems to me like 50% of the people who are commenting either did not read my post or have chosen to completely ignoring my basic premise.

this thread is about the use of flamers as an ECM type weapon.

#13 blinkin

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 10:05 AM

bump

#14 Gevurah

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 10:21 AM

You know, when I first read this I thought "That's silly. How could that possibly work."

Last night it happened to me. I had a spider blind me with two flamers while his buddy in the com-2D and a spider 5D picked me apart. While I didn't die due to the match ending on points, my end was sort of a foregone conclusion.

Done properly, it completely negated all my vision modes and I was shocked I was basically firing at shadows for most of the fight. I wasn't terribly worried about it being a lightswarm (cataphract 3-D, jump jets, 4 ML and 1 AC20), normally I can down a light pretty fast with that mech when I can see my opponent(s).

#15 Righ

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 10:28 AM

Very useful if used correctly. Me and a friend have both used them to keep hot-running mechs in check when fighting them.

And the flamer is meant to be an anti-infantry weapon, much like the machine gun and small laser. Unfortunately since we will not be seeing infantry in this game, much of it's purpose is removed.

I think the real problem is that everyone seems to think it will continually raise a mech's heat if it is trained on them for long periods of time. In other words, if I kept blasting an Atlas with a couple flamers, it's heat would continually grow until it shut down. However, it actually just bumps up the heat level of the enemy 'mech by a small amount, giving them less room to fire heat-generating weapons. It's still quite useful for decreasing a heavy-hitting 'mechs damage output at close range, but it's not as great as some people think it is (including myself at one point).

As it is, I'd say it's fair to keep the current mechanics.

#16 blinkin

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 10:37 AM

View PostRigh, on 26 March 2013 - 10:28 AM, said:

Very useful if used correctly. Me and a friend have both used them to keep hot-running mechs in check when fighting them.

And the flamer is meant to be an anti-infantry weapon, much like the machine gun and small laser. Unfortunately since we will not be seeing infantry in this game, much of it's purpose is removed.

I think the real problem is that everyone seems to think it will continually raise a mech's heat if it is trained on them for long periods of time. In other words, if I kept blasting an Atlas with a couple flamers, it's heat would continually grow until it shut down. However, it actually just bumps up the heat level of the enemy 'mech by a small amount, giving them less room to fire heat-generating weapons. It's still quite useful for decreasing a heavy-hitting 'mechs damage output at close range, but it's not as great as some people think it is (including myself at one point).

As it is, I'd say it's fair to keep the current mechanics.

they add 0.2 heat per second last i heard. this is just enough to counter 2 single heatsinks. so a hunchback with 9 flamers can counter 18 heatsinks. converting to double heatsinks gives most engines the equivalent of 20 heatsinks. boated at max current capacity flamers CANNOT beat most in engine double heat sinks.

that is why i say the heat effects on current flamers are largely irrelevent. in the recent patch they did make the damage a little more respectable though.

#17 blinkin

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 11:14 AM

bump

#18 HarmAssassin

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 02:26 PM

Actually flamers weren't really designed to be fired at mechs at all. They were designed to start forest and brush fires to fight infantry, and to create heat hazards for enemy mechs (and to blind the enemy with smoke from the fires). They were never designed for use as a primary weapon.

#19 blinkin

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 08:23 PM

View PostHarmAssassin, on 09 April 2013 - 02:26 PM, said:

Actually flamers weren't really designed to be fired at mechs at all. They were designed to start forest and brush fires to fight infantry, and to create heat hazards for enemy mechs (and to blind the enemy with smoke from the fires). They were never designed for use as a primary weapon.

i am going to add this quote to the OP because it fits in perfectly with the theme.

#20 MustrumRidcully

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 11:06 AM

View Postblinkin, on 21 March 2013 - 12:27 PM, said:

it seems to me like 50% of the people who are commenting either did not read my post or have chosen to completely ignoring my basic premise.

this thread is about the use of flamers as an ECM type weapon.

It's an interesting idea, but I am afraid it produces too much heat and too much effort to use it as such currently. You need to be extremely close to your enemy to benefit from it at all!

The Flamer effect would probably be terrible if it allowed stun locks and all that. BUt the problme right now is - it doesn't heat up to make a difference, it requires you to be very close and always on target, and it overheats you. I would consider making the heat effect of multiple Flamers not stack (or at least not additively), and lower its heat and/or increase the damage. If it was 3/4 as good as a small laser offensively and heat wise, but also blind the enemy, it might be something worth considering to use.





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