209 replies to this topic

[Iacov]

if you wanna do anything about balancing this game: remove the weapons!

i'm sick and tired of all this fighting and dying!
future does not have to be war!



























just kidding - please continue

[Nostram]

I have been killed by catapults, in catapults, and have killed catapults a lot. I have not found any of them to be overpowered. I have found them to be annoying at times, just like many other mechs depending on their pilot. If you keep dying from something odds are that it is not overpowered, it is that you are not learning what you are doing wrong. Once you figure out why you keep dying from a particular build then you will begin to do so consistently less. In regards to the A1 "Splatapult build" the only reason for dying to it is due to a lack of battlefield awareness. If you let it sneak up on you then odds are you will die from it, not entirely because it is OP but due to you not being aware of where it was at prior to it closing in on you.

P.S. I am defending the Splatapult now? Really? I think I just died a little inside.

[Mr Mantis]

the srm cats are almost useless on larger maps, so more or those would be fine to counter the cat. no need to take down the engine rating or twist. If we can get some 360 twist mechs that will make the cat look like it has a reasonable twist.

[Corvus Antaka]

Irvine, on 26 February 2013 - 12:36 PM, said:

Dragons can still run in the 50 alpha range along with those very high DPS builds. All while running at around 100 kph

Catapults also seem to have more armour capacity than dragons and nearly as much as Cataphracts. this seems odd since the catapult is 65 tons, but if it's in TT i suppose it makes sense.

[Rhent]

Nostram, on 26 February 2013 - 12:45 PM, said:

I have been killed by catapults, in catapults, and have killed catapults a lot. I have not found any of them to be overpowered. I have found them to be annoying at times, just like many other mechs depending on their pilot. If you keep dying from something odds are that it is not overpowered, it is that you are not learning what you are doing wrong. Once you figure out why you keep dying from a particular build then you will begin to do so consistently less. In regards to the A1 "Splatapult build" the only reason for dying to it is due to a lack of battlefield awareness. If you let it sneak up on you then odds are you will die from it, not entirely because it is OP but due to you not being aware of where it was at prior to it closing in on you.

P.S. I am defending the Splatapult now? Really? I think I just died a little inside.

Situational Awareness is Hard
Bitching on the forums because a person can only play with tunnel vision is easy

Welcome to MWO General Forum. The majority of the posters here want a nerf for a system that they can't handle. The only thing I don't like so far is that ECM can be placed in any component on a mech, I want an ECM slot per mech to shoot at to eliminate the ECM, but that will never happen. Having high priority targets are fun, like AC/20 cats or SRM Cats or 6 PPC Stalkers. IOW's, ignoring a specialized mech and allowing them to fight in their range should get you killed quickly. Removing high priority targets from game to make everyone play a crap build makes baby jesus cry.

[Doc Holliday]

I could support the twist amount on the Cat to be reduced a very small amount. I could also support speed being reduced across the board for all mechs. But not until ECM has been fixed.

Edited by Doc Holliday, 26 February 2013 - 12:54 PM.

[Irvine]

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 26 February 2013 - 12:50 PM, said:

Catapults also seem to have more armour capacity than dragons and nearly as much as Cataphracts. this seems odd since the catapult is 65 tons, but if it's in TT i suppose it makes sense.

speed armor trade off i guess.

[Serapth]

Rhent, on 26 February 2013 - 12:52 PM, said:

Situational Awareness is Hard
Bitching on the forums because a person can only play with tunnel vision is easy

Welcome to MWO General Forum. The majority of the posters here want a nerf for a system that they can't handle. The only thing I don't like so far is that ECM can be placed in any component on a mech, I want an ECM slot per mech to shoot at to eliminate the ECM, but that will never happen. Having high priority targets are fun, like AC/20 cats or SRM Cats or 6 PPC Stalkers. IOW's, ignoring a specialized mech and allowing them to fight in their range should get you killed quickly. Removing high priority targets from game to make everyone play a crap build makes baby jesus cry.

See, theres the thing though... its always the Cat in the end.

The Stalker can boat too, but it pays a heavy and obvious price. It's slow as hell, has huge side torsos and the worst twist in the game. People look at the 6xPPC and realize they heavy price paid to run such a mech. Some people complain sure, but for the most part it's pretty quite.

The Cat though... no real downsides. A slightly larger head hitbox is the only thing I ever hear listed as a downside. On the upside, it's fast, good armor, best twist speed and radius in the game, most boatable mech in the game, best critical placements in the game, often best firmpoints in the game.

So maybe, just maybe, people complain about the Cat because... you know, there is a problem with the Cat???

[Penn Ace]

My thoughts are "there needs to be a boat for you to customize the way you want it". Because there are many mechs (unseen) which are not in the game the catapult chassis allows me to make my favorite mechs aka warhammer, thunderbolt style. They are not exactly like them but close enough. I mean, why else would they have the mechs which were indeed pretty sucky in the table top version, in this game? I am glad everything is pretty customizable and the catapult is pretty decent the way it is. Could be better but it isn't bad.

[ElLocoMarko]

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 26 February 2013 - 12:50 PM, said:

Catapults also seem to have more armour capacity than dragons and nearly as much as Cataphracts. this seems odd since the catapult is 65 tons, but if it's in TT i suppose it makes sense.

I beg to differ. You seem to think that people actually miss the huge protrusions on this mech. Armor 422 is more like 164 because too my knowledge, and I speak from experience, no one has ever hit anything on a catapult except its center torso an arms.

Correction... someone did pee on my leg once with a small laser.

Edited by ElLocoMarko, 26 February 2013 - 01:27 PM.

[Super Mono]

Rhent, on 26 February 2013 - 11:57 AM, said:

OR you could learn how to stay at 150M while fighting a splat cat

OR you could learn how to use thermals and watch the horizon for the familiar Catapult image not firing PPC/LL/LRM's rapidly running towards you

OR you could learn how to aim at Torso &/Or Arms to dearm the Cat

OR you could learn how to headshot the Cat's oversized head target

OR you could quit playing LRM carriers without any secondary close range weapons and staying zoomed in on targets rather than looking at your map

OR you could quit playing PPC only carriers overheating yourself allowing a SRM cat to close and take you out when you are at 90% heat

Sorry man, but you write like one of the most gawdawful players in the game if you can't handle a mech that can only do damage at 100M or less. You are truly a **** poor example of a poster, player and a human being. If you can't handle a SRM cat, I'm surprised you didn't hang yourself on your first day working at McDonald's when you were given fryer duty.

you are absolutely terrified of someone taking away your easy mode.

It's ok, let it out man, then try weaning yourself off the easy stuff and try learning something that takes some skill.

[Jakob Knight]

Serapth, on 26 February 2013 - 12:58 PM, said:

.

The Cat though... no real downsides. A slightly larger head hitbox is the only thing I ever hear listed as a downside. On the upside, it's fast, good armor, best twist speed and radius in the game, most boatable mech in the game, best critical placements in the game, often best firmpoints in the game.

So maybe, just maybe, people complain about the Cat because... you know, there is a problem with the Cat???

No, because once again, you are ignoring the disadvantages.

1) The cockpit is dead center, which means any shot aimed at the center of the mech hits the head. This increases the likelihood of head destruction a great deal, since targeting another mech's head means you have to aim off the center of mass, causing the probability of a miss instead of damage to the mech, even on a failed hit on the head.

2) The center torso of the mech is huge. It can be targetted practically anywhere but directly behind, and leads to easy destruction of the mech by taking hits that normally would go to the side torsos. Concentrated damage is what kills mechs, not dispersed damage.

3) The mech has a very limited number of hardpoints, and the weapon selection for those hardpoints are very restricted by the game. LRMs and SSRMs are completely nullified by ECM, and any missile mounted -must- be in the arms. In addition, no Catapult mounts more than 6 hardpoints total. Compare to other mechs, which have the option of variable weapon types and mounting, and greater numbers of hardpoints.

4) The mech is one of the largest in the game. Even a Stalker, an -Assault mech- is smaller.

All of these contribute to the mech not being the monster people constantly claim it is. It will never come close to the damage output of a Stalker, the speed of a Dragon, or the versatility of the Cataphract. It might, if the game devs hadn't gone out of the way to handicap the very weapons this mech would require to do so.

And what do we see, instead of reasoned discussion of the mech? "The Catapult is too OP when it uses LRMs" "The Catapult is too OP when it uses SSRMs" "The Catapult is too OP when it uses SRMs" "The Catapult is too OP when it uses Gauss Rifles" "The Catapult is too OP when it uses AC/20s" "The Catapult goes too fast" "The Catapult can mount too many weapons when it goes too slow" "The Catapult is too OP when it isn't using LRMs, and it should be forced to use them"

So, what is the Catapult supposed to -be-, if everyone seems determined it is a heavy mech that shouldn't mount anything, shouldn't be able to move fast or slow, and has big disadvantages that result in its dying easier than it should? Sounds to me like people simply don't know, and just want a target to vent on.

Especially since, if it was rendered a useless walking dual-Medium laser-only battlemech, people would immediately start complaining about the Cataphract, or the Awesome, or the <fill in the name of the mech they don't like fighting>.

Edited by Jakob Knight, 26 February 2013 - 01:34 PM.

[Valore]

SpartanFiredog317, on 26 February 2013 - 10:43 AM, said:

.....Most engagements take place sub 200, and its easy enough to sneak up on people....

And I think we've discovered that the actual problem probably isn't the Cat...

Engagements take place where the smarter pilot wanted them to take place. And the victims of ambushes are those who didn't think their positioning through clearly enough.

[Super Mono]

Valore, on 26 February 2013 - 01:37 PM, said:

And I think we've discovered that the actual problem probably isn't the Cat...

Engagements take place where the smarter pilot wanted them to take place. And the victims of ambushes are those who didn't think their positioning through clearly enough.

I don't want to sound elitist but these topics should be limited to people who actually play the game. You're conjecturing about maps that don't have cover littered everywhere with multiple routes to use to get close to the enemy.

[Hastega]

Complaints against Catapults are like complaints against DPS rogues in some fantasy MMO. They dominate the solo queues easily because the meta is to stack more DPS and kill your mentally challenged opponents faster than they can cope with what you're doing to them. Any reasonably skilled player can deal with this approach because they have preformed plans of how they will react to the situation appropriately, but for players who just get blindsided and overwhelmed by a situation they have no grasp of how to counter, they come to the forums and complain.

The Catapult (all variants) is a walking arsenal, a pinnacle death machine among death machines. It has strong weaknesses in survival and the only thing it has going for it is that it packs a lot of firepower and can use it. Destroying one whether you target the legs, the ears, or the giant head is very easy, it's surviving long enough to do that which isn't. Most of the time this is because you are failing. Spamming 36 missiles has a low chance of failure, a little practice and you can be hitting most of those all the time. But using weapons like lasers and ballistics means you need to actually aim and failing to do so means the catapult is pulling ahead even more than he should be. It creates the illusion of being overpowered.

Catapults are merely a DPS class of mechs, packing heat and squishy to boot with obvious and easy to hit targets to go for. LRMs are especially effective on them because the missiles hit the ears first and render them unable to attack. Like any DPS class with strong enough burst damage, people will begin to cry OP (omg the burst it hurts nerf!) and merely nerfing the catapults will result in people stacking the next most overpowered burst damage class. The only way the complaints stop is when burst damage ceases to exist, and if you want THAT all you need to do is poll to remove missiles and sniper weapons from the game entirely and force everyone to use medium lasers and AC5s.

Cats are fine, Rogues are fine, Mage DPS is fine, and stop trying to solo them when you have a team that should be helping. Failure to team is a player issue, not a balance issue.

[Larth]

So....splatcats are horrible, but a Catapult A1 mounting 4-6 LRM15/LRM20's is fine? Okay, I'm fine with standing in the back and listening to people moan as they complain about all the missiles raining down. Oh and I'll be behind cover so you can't shoot my ears off. Sooo much better.

[Valore]

Super Mono, on 26 February 2013 - 01:42 PM, said:

I don't want to sound elitist but these topics should be limited to people who actually play the game. You're conjecturing about maps that don't have cover littered everywhere with multiple routes to use to get close to the enemy.

Don't want to get bitten by rattlesnakes? Don't go into the bushes. Its hilarious how many people QQ when they bump into a splatcat in the tunnels of Frozen/Forest.

What next? Will we start entertaining the complaints of people who demand nerfs to LRMs and PPCs/Gauss because they died horribly trying to crawl across a big open area in Caustic/Alpine in an Assault?

Or should we start nerfing lights, because they keep running up to people with long range weaponry and hounding them to death?


The fact is people keep playing stupidly and when they get punished for it, they prefer to blame everything else.

[Zakie Chan]

Better idea!

If the mech fires more than 4 missle launchers at once there is a chance that the door doesnt open and the ear expoldes and falls off.




Theyre fine, devs just need to figure out how to discourage min maxing so much. Alpine has made a huge step in that direction. I hope to see a 50/50 to 70/30 ratio of large maps to small ones. Yes certain game modes need work and more interesting scenarios like depot defense or something would make them even more fun.

[Larth]

Zakie Chan, on 26 February 2013 - 02:03 PM, said:

Better idea!

If the mech fires more than 4 missle launchers at once there is a chance that the door doesnt open and the ear expoldes and falls off.




Theyre fine, devs just need to figure out how to discourage min maxing so much. Alpine has made a huge step in that direction. I hope to see a 50/50 to 70/30 ratio of large maps to small ones. Yes certain game modes need work and more interesting scenarios like depot defense or something would make them even more fun.

Of course the problem with that is Cats will still be complained about. It'll just be C1 and K2 instead with dual ERPPC's or Guass Cannons. Why is it always the Cats that get shafted, never the dogs? ... Oh yeah, they haven't put in any doggie mechs like the Wolfhound, my bad.

Edited by Larth, 26 February 2013 - 02:09 PM.

[DeadlyNerd]

1 simple problem with OP's proposition. All default loadouts have an engine of higher rank than he's proposing.
Not only that but how would you justify that a single mech chassis should have its default engine rating as top engine rating while all others can go way higher than their default rating.

Cut the torso twist speed and angle.

Edited by DeadlyNerd, 26 February 2013 - 02:16 PM.