73 replies to this topic

[Volume]

Bryan Ekman, on 22 February 2013 - 04:33 PM, said:

Before we do anything to the 3Ls we are waiting for state rewind to come in. 3L's will be a lot less desirable when you can't hide behind lag shields.

Let's assume it works perfectly and genuinely functions properly. The lag shield fix will affect EVERY light, EVERY fast chassis. The 3L still has many inherent advantages that make it superior to other light 'mechs, lag shield or no.

• The 3L is very fast - Theoretically, lights have an almost-negligible speed difference with max engines - all the spiders, jenners, and commandos can go "around" 150 with a max engine and speed tweak. The only significantly slower light platforms are other ravens (max speed of 124.7kph with Speed Tweak, 113.4 kph without)
  
• The 3L is still the only platform that can mount ECM at that speed and have missile hardpoints (sorry, Cicada). It is the only light that can, which is important considering
  
• Raven hitboxes are still borked - I've hit them with an AC/20 in the face sometimes, and it apparently strips their rear armor. Unless this is due to lag/lack of state rewind, it will still be an issue.
  
• The 3L still has the most useful hardpoint layout of any Raven (arguably any light) until weapon balance is re-tuned. Even if ECM/Streaks end up being useless one day, SRM6's are pretty ridiculous, and this is the only Light that can mount two of them. They have the highest burst damage/DPS in close-quarters. As mentioned before, the 3L has very high max-engine-speed to close distances with, to use its possibly 2(!!!) SRM6s at an effective range.
  
• The 3L and Jenner both have the same 120/20/30 Torso Yaw/Patch/Arm-Pitch ratio, but the 3L is the only thing that can mount 2 SRM6's.

It's ONLY weakness is that it can't mount jumpjets, but...Then again, when you have three module slots, ECM, and everything else, I don't think that this one drawback compensates for its other advantages.

Edited by Volume, 26 February 2013 - 07:42 PM.

[ChrisOrange]

I thought I read somewhere that one of the Jenner's is getting ECM but it might have been a troll.

I've personally not had problems hitting 3L's so any lag shield that's happening doesn't seem to affect me. I'm actually more afraid of them messing with it because I'll have to relearn etc. The only lag shields that I don't like are the euro/australian players that think it's a good idea to keep an American client/account.

[Josef Nader]

Consider the following:

State rewinding will let them lift the speed cap on light mechs. All light mechs sans the commando move faster than the Raven. This equates to a higher speed cap.

Lights currently can't outrun Ravens, but that doesn't mean this will remain the case.

[TopDawg]

While I don't inherently disagree that the 3L is hands down the best Light currently, you are wrong on a few accounts.

The 'second' missile hardpoint on a 3L is the Narc tube, so it only fires one missile at a time. The Jenner D (if ECM capable) would have the same hardpoints (with the added ability of a viable 2x SRM-4) as the 3L, with an extra energy hardpoint.

Also, I have not experienced the hitbox problems concerning the 3L, both as someone who has piloted them and as someone who shoots at them.

Not to mention what the above poster said if that is when they finally remove the artificial limits on speed.

[Doc Holliday]

Volume, on 26 February 2013 - 07:41 PM, said:

Let's assume it works perfectly and genuinely functions properly. The lag shield fix will affect EVERY light, EVERY fast chassis. The 3L still has many inherent advantages that make it superior to other light 'mechs, lag shield or no.

• The 3L is very fast - Theoretically, lights have an almost-negligible speed difference with max engines - all the spiders, jenners, and commandos can go "around" 150 with a max engine and speed tweak. The only significantly slower light platforms are other ravens (max speed of 124.7kph with Speed Tweak, 113.4 kph without)
  
• The 3L is still the only platform that can mount ECM at that speed and have missile hardpoints (sorry, Cicada). It is the only light that can, which is important considering
  
• Raven hitboxes are still borked - I've hit them with an AC/20 in the face sometimes, and it apparently strips their rear armor. Unless this is due to lag/lack of state rewind, it will still be an issue.
  
• The 3L still has the most useful hardpoint layout of any Raven (arguably any light) until weapon balance is re-tuned. Even if ECM/Streaks end up being useless one day, SRM6's are pretty ridiculous, and this is the only Light that can mount two of them. They have the highest burst damage/DPS in close-quarters. As mentioned before, the 3L has very high max-engine-speed to close distances with, to use its possibly 2(!!!) SRM6s at an effective range.
  
• The 3L and Jenner both have the same 120/20/30 Torso Yaw/Patch/Arm-Pitch ratio, but the 3L is the only thing that can mount 2 SRM6's.

It's ONLY weakness is that it can't mount jumpjets, but...Then again, when you have three module slots, ECM, and everything else, I don't think that this one drawback compensates for its other advantages.

You missed the COM-2D in this bit: "The 3L is still the only platform that can mount ECM at that speed and have missile hardpoints (sorry, Cicada). It is the only light that can, which is important considerin"

Other than that, I agree.

TopDawg, on 26 February 2013 - 08:20 PM, said:

While I don't inherently disagree that the 3L is hands down the best Light currently, you are wrong on a few accounts.

The 'second' missile hardpoint on a 3L is the Narc tube, so it only fires one missile at a time. The Jenner D (if ECM capable) would have the same hardpoints (with the added ability of a viable 2x SRM-4) as the 3L, with an extra energy hardpoint.

Also, I have not experienced the hitbox problems concerning the 3L, both as someone who has piloted them and as someone who shoots at them.

Not to mention what the above poster said if that is when they finally remove the artificial limits on speed.

The JR7-D can't mount double SRM6's because both missile hard points are CT. The best you can do is two SRM4's. As for firing an SRM6 through a narc tube one missile at a time... that can actually be useful, as you continue to blast the mech and keep them rocking (and unable to aim well) for an extended period of time.

Edited by Doc Holliday, 26 February 2013 - 08:27 PM.

[Tennex]

its really just a huge logic fail. state rewind will nerf all light mechs.
and it just so happens that raven 3L is a light mech.


it won't fix the problem of raven 3Ls being so much better than all the other light mechs.


state rewind wont fix how mindnumbingly skilless sSRM/ECM combo is. regardless how how much less effort the opposing jenner has to make, with the help of state rewind.


PGI seems dead set on not reworking mechanics. whether it be sSRMs, ECMs, or LRMs.
but the good part of any product, is revision. What we are using is essentially the first draft. but they refuse to refine it.

Edited by Tennex, 26 February 2013 - 08:31 PM.

[Gaan Cathal]

Volume, on 26 February 2013 - 07:41 PM, said:

• The 3L still has the most useful hardpoint layout of any Raven (arguably any light) until weapon balance is re-tuned. Even if ECM/Streaks end up being useless one day, SRM6's are pretty ridiculous, and this is the only Light that can mount two of them. They have the highest burst damage/DPS in close-quarters. As mentioned before, the 3L has very high max-engine-speed to close distances with, to use its possibly 2(!!!) SRM6s at an effective range.
  
• The 3L and Jenner both have the same 120/20/30 Torso Yaw/Patch/Arm-Pitch ratio, but the 3L is the only thing that can mount 2 SRM6's.

Raven-3L: 3x Energy Hardpoints, 2x Missile Hardpoints
Jenner-D: 4x Energy Hardpoints, 2x Missile Hardpoints

So.....no. The Jenner has manifestly superior hardpoints. There's a reason it was the only light mech worth taking before ECM arrived. And yes, you can get two SRM6 on a Raven and only a pair of SRM4 on a Jenner, but the weight involved is flat out not worth the increase in damage once you factor in increased spread.

Edited by Gaan Cathal, 26 February 2013 - 08:29 PM.

[Tennex]

Gaan Cathal, on 26 February 2013 - 08:27 PM, said:

So.....no. The Jenner has manifestly superior hardpoints. There's a reason it was the only light mech worth taking before ECM arrived. And yes, you can get two SRM6 on a Raven and only a pair of SRM4 on a Jenner, but the weight involved is flat out not worth the increase in damage once you factor in increased spread.

its also pointless to have 2 sSRM6s on the raven. since the NARC tube essentially makes the sSRM6s a slow short range rapid fire rocketlauncher.

[Kassatsu]

Tennex, on 26 February 2013 - 08:33 PM, said:

its also pointless to have 2 sSRM6s on the raven. since the NARC tube essentially makes the sSRM6s a slow short range rapid fire rocketlauncher.

Was about to say that myself. I'd never put anything higher than an SSRM2 or SRM2 in the arm, it would take far too long to fire a full volley to be as effective. Alternately, use the extra ton of space to use artemis on your SRM6.

[Mawai]

Gaan Cathal, on 26 February 2013 - 08:27 PM, said:

Raven-3L: 3x Energy Hardpoints, 2x Missile Hardpoints
Jenner-D: 4x Energy Hardpoints, 2x Missile Hardpoints

So.....no. The Jenner has manifestly superior hardpoints. There's a reason it was the only light mech worth taking before ECM arrived. And yes, you can get two SRM6 on a Raven and only a pair of SRM4 on a Jenner, but the weight involved is flat out not worth the increase in damage once you factor in increased spread.

The Jenner D missile hard points are useless against the Raven-3L unless fitted with SRM4s.

SRM4s are 2 tons each + 1 ton of ammo for a total of 5 ... streaks require one less ton and always hit.

Even with state rewind (assuming it can be implemented without impacting game play) ... hitting fast light mechs should still require some skill .. hitting fast light mechs with SRMs that will have to lead the target in order to hit ... while trying to fire lasers that will have to be aimed at the target in order to hit will also be challenging.

ECM protects Raven-3Ls from LRMs and SSRMs ... it makes it harder to spot the mech since you have to be within 200 (250m) rather than 800 (1000m) to get a map marker and it protects nearby team-mates.

In addition, the Raven has the option of fitting 2xSRM6 if someone was so inclined ... this option is not possible on the Jenner. (though as others point out ... 2xSRM6 isn't that useful due to the single tube launcher in one of the hardpoints).

Overall, even if the lag shield is completely removed, the Raven-3L will still be the most effective light mech, will still defeat other lights most of the time in any 1:1 situation between two equally skilled pilots ... and will bring more benefit to the team due to the effects of ECM.

What state rewind may do is effectively nerf ALL light mechs since they may become easier to hit.

State rewind may also nerf fast mediums and heavies depending on the current level of lag shielding effects at medium speeds from 80 to 120kph.

Edited by Mawai, 26 February 2013 - 08:43 PM.

[Critical Fumble]

What he and PGI are hoping is that when you can alpha the little suckers in the face and kill them when they try doing what they've been doing, they'll be a non-issue for anything that can outgun them. He might be right in the scale of the entire mech palate.

I doubt it will make other lights much if any more valuable compared to the 3L, though. If they release the speed cap, maybe somewhat, but I'm hoping they wait for the return of knockdown for that. It may indirectly nerf the SSRM to some extent, as you'd actually hit what you indicated with lasers; but given the choice between two similar weapons, where the slightly inferior one has aim correction, which one is better (especially at high speed)? They'll also still have the SSRM+ECM bonus.

Its an improvement certainly, but its not the mechssiah.

[TopDawg]

Doc Holliday, on 26 February 2013 - 08:26 PM, said:

You missed the COM-2D in this bit: "The 3L is still the only platform that can mount ECM at that speed and have missile hardpoints (sorry, Cicada). It is the only light that can, which is important considerin"

Other than that, I agree.


The JR7-D can't mount double SRM6's because both missile hard points are CT. The best you can do is two SRM4's. As for firing an SRM6 through a narc tube one missile at a time... that can actually be useful, as you continue to blast the mech and keep them rocking (and unable to aim well) for an extended period of time.

I know, I have a mastered Jenner F and D (and is also why I said 2x SRM-4). I also have mastered all the Ravens, the Commando 2D, and even a Spider 5D (ironically the 2D was before ECM).

The point though, as other posters have said, is the combination of ECM + Streaks. The 3L does, or a Jenner D with ECM would, make every other Light a non option.

Also, and I mean no offense, no one is going to use an SRM 6 in a Narc tube on a 3L in a competitive setting, unless their goal is lolz and not winning.

[Zaptruder]

Just nerf their speed. 115 w/ speed tweak max. Same for the Commando 2D.

You want ECM? Sure. You want Streaks? Go ahead!

You're going to have trouble keeping up with lights and lag shielding yourself against heavies and assaults.

Simple tweak that at worst, nerfs 2 mechs heavily, leaving the rest of the systems and mechs untouched.

[The Cheese]

I don't think that the devs believe that the state rewind system will 'fix' the 3L, nor do I think they were referring to the 3L's powerful loadout possibilities and chassis perks in the OP's quoted post.

I think they're just saying that trying to fix the detection issues that the 3L has before the state rewind is in place is like putting the cart before the horse.

Edited by The Cheese, 26 February 2013 - 08:52 PM.

[Gaan Cathal]

These threads always end up in the same place.

Streaks need a beating with the nerf bat, they've been lazymode since they got their bug fixed, and that's not exclusive to the 3L.
ECM needs some tweaking, that's a far more complex issue than the streaks though, and again, not exclusive to the 3L.

Lots of people will still whine that they should whack-a-mole nerf the 3L itself, and no doubt whine at the next mech that becomes a problem through the same mechanics. Unless it's their mech, of course.

[Zaptruder]

The Cheese, on 26 February 2013 - 08:48 PM, said:

I don't think that the devs believe that the state rewind system will 'fix' the 3L, nor do I think they were referring to the 3L's powerful loadout possibilities and chassis perks.

I think they're just saying that trying to fix the 3L'***** detection issues before the state rewind is in place is like putting the cart before the horse.

The 3L's... hit detection is largely related to the wonkily shaped hitboxes (which you can test with 2 players, firing at each other), which spread the damage over the raven's upper torso a bit too evenly.

Knowing that the Raven 3L and the Commando 2D are currently far and away better than any other light at nearly all levels of play; then what's the solution that can target those two variants specifically, without breaking any other existing system?

Max engine rating + mech quirks (torso twist, turning speed, etc). Adjust values in those areas (without compromising the canon loadout), until variants are on an even footing with other mechs in class... for the vast majority of skill levels.

Edited by Zaptruder, 26 February 2013 - 08:55 PM.

[The Cheese]

Zaptruder, on 26 February 2013 - 08:54 PM, said:

The 3L's... hit detection is largely related to the wonkily shaped hitboxes (which you can test with 2 players, firing at each other), which spread the damage over the raven's upper torso a bit too evenly.

Knowing that the Raven 3L and the Commando 2D are currently far and away better than any other light at nearly all levels of play; then what's the solution that can target those two variants specifically, without breaking any other existing system?

Max engine rating + mech quirks (torso twist, turning speed, etc). Adjust values in those areas (without compromising the canon loadout), until variants are on an even footing with other mechs in class... for the vast majority of skill levels.

Not arguing with any of that, nor am I here to give all the answers. I'm just saying that I think the OP took a different meaning from the post that he referenced than what was intended by the dev that posted it.

[Wrenchfarm]

Tennex, on 26 February 2013 - 08:27 PM, said:

its really just a huge logic fail. state rewind will nerf all light mechs.
and it just so happens that raven 3L is a light mech.


it won't fix the problem of raven 3Ls being so much better than all the other light mechs.


state rewind wont fix how mindnumbingly skilless sSRM/ECM combo is. regardless how how much less effort the opposing jenner has to make, with the help of state rewind.


PGI seems dead set on not reworking mechanics. whether it be sSRMs, ECMs, or LRMs.
but the good part of any product, is revision. What we are using is essentially the first draft. but they refuse to refine it.

Took the words right out of my mouth. When state rewind is fully implemented, the Raven will suffer but still be the undisputed king of the light class. If anything, players will need to lean on it harder than ever.

Streaks simply offer too great a benefit for too little a cost, a problem only exacerbated when in light vs light combat. I'm not sure how you fix it without fundamentally changing the weapon. They seem to be very dedicated to not altering tonnage/crit slots (or risk breaking stock builds) so no joy there. Perhaps make the streak tracking effect much weaker? A guide assisted rocket rather than a guaranteed hit even when fired at 90 degrees away from the mech.

[EmeraldSongbird]

Volume, on 26 February 2013 - 07:41 PM, said:

The 3L is still the only platform that can mount ECM at that speed and have missile hardpoints (sorry, Cicada). It is the only light that can, which is important considering

No love for the 2D? That thing can mount 3 streaks, that's one more than a 3L!!!

[Zeroskills]

Streaks, LRMs, and ECM all need balance tweaks in my opinion. Get the weapons in a good place first and then worry about mechs that stand out is how I would do things.