140 replies to this topic

[Glythe]

Ok so let's examine the situation here. Gauss rifle was borderline OP and got health nerf. Now everyone is one again using AC/20 instead because the GR sucks unless you are sniping long range.

I really feel the PPC needs to have its health reduced down to about 3 and the ERPPC should be about 6 health. Why? It's a precision sniper weapon. The supposed minimum range drawback just isn't really a factor 95% of the time. And while the weapon should be doing zero damage inside 90m that apparently just isn't going to happen (although it really should).

PPCs are easy mode right now as they hit one location (lasers fail at this), travel at a super increased velocity compared to ballistics (mind you it is supposed to travel slowly like a ballistic weapon). And with the heat reduction is incredibly easy to manage. In addition they also disrupt ECM. It takes quite a bit of skill to hit an enemy with an AC/20 at 450+ meters. The same cannot be said for the PPC.

Compare the PPC to the LPL and it isn't even close in terms of effectiveness. That's just wrong. In truth the PPC was well balanced where it was before getting any buffs. It took skill and was powerful if used correctly. It was not used often because it took a pilot who could manage heat, hit well at range and still have a plan for when the enemy got close.

You commonly see 6 mechs in an average game with PPCs because they are the do all omni weapon right now. If you played during the closed beta you might remember when the Gauss rifle had this same status. The real problem with the Gauss rifle was not the weapon itself... but rather the K2 double Gauss sniper.

There's really no reason the PPC needs to stay in its current form considering what happened the last time there was a weapon that was this good. It needs a nerf and it needs to be hit very hard so that there is a real drawback to using the weapon.

Edited by Glythe, 27 February 2013 - 04:29 AM.

[Redshift2k5]

I think PPCs were incredibly lackluster until the recent heat buff. Keep in mid items at the base 10 health are still destroyed very easily by crits and the PPC's 3 slots make it more vulnerable than other energy weapons.

[MustrumRidcully]

In one word. No.

In more words. No, the PPC doesn't need a health nerf. It wouldn't be a very useful nerf, either, since the PPC only takes 3 crit slots, not 7 or 10 like Gauss and AC/20. It is not very likely to take critical damage.
The PPC is fine, the ER PPC is still a bit too hot.

If you are worried about HexaStalkers and similar builds - lobby for a lower heat capacity. It fixes all energy-related alpha strikes problems. (It won't fix Streaks, SRMs or or Heavy Dual to Quad Ballistics), ideally combined with an increase in general heat dissipation. Or lobby for a different convergence system. 6 PPC shots spreading their damage over 3 hit locations will not be as impressive as 6 PPC shots hitting one location.

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 27 February 2013 - 04:32 AM.

[627]

Why do you need a nerf? Is it so that everyone uses ppcs only? I doubt that.

In fact, PPCs are usable now and have a nice buf against ecm.
You still need steady aim to hit with them, you still have to watch your heat and within 90m you have this nasty damage falloff.

PPC is THE battletech weapon, hell it's the only "futuristic/magic" weapon we have, so please let us enjoy in on the 'field

[Glythe]

The fact that the PPC has a low number of critical slots is why I suggest the health nerf and the zero damage within 90m change.

If you don't feel the new PPC is every bit as powerful as the old Gauss rifle you are deluding yourself. We all know how that one turned out.... Gauss rifle is now only featured on sniper builds and is about 10 times more rare than the AC/20 on the battlefield (used to be the other way around).

[Bryan Kerensky]

Glythe, on 27 February 2013 - 04:42 AM, said:

The fact that the PPC has a low number of critical slots is why I suggest the health nerf and the zero damage within 90m change. If you don't feel the new PPC is every bit as powerful as the old Gauss rifle you are deluding yourself. We all know how that one turned out.... Gauss rifle is now only featured on sniper builds and is about 10 times more rare than the AC/20 on the battlefield (used to be the other way around).

No one is deluded but you and nowhere were PPCs stated to be a sniper only weapon. The 90m minimum effective range is a mechanic carried over from TT, people can take them in for medium range engagements, people will take them and people should have that choice and risk the counter of someone trying to get within the 90m effective range.

Edited by Bryan Kerensky, 27 February 2013 - 04:52 AM.

[Elizander]

Can barely hit with them due to fire delay.

[MADJag1067]

I don't really use PPCs much honestly but that's an old bias from when they really were basically useless. And from when the whole double heatsink thing was a major issue. And it was impossible to hit with them....I could go on. The game is still finding balance and I think PPCs are right where they need to be. If anything needs to be done with them I think it would need to be something more along the lines of say if you fire under 90 meters you lose ur ECM and modules for 3-5 seconds because of the particle feedback if you hit your target. That plays into the fluff of the whole inhibitor thing on PPCs which I'm pretty sure why people think it shouldn't do damage until 90 meters.

Edited by MADJag1067, 27 February 2013 - 04:59 AM.

[Murku]

PPCs are not a 'precision sniper weapon'. They are the go to heavy energy weapon in game, much as Med Lasers are the go to light weapon. Their current level of usefulness makes people willing to devote 7 tons to a hard point and an additional investment to heat sinks, which to me is where I'd like to see the game headed. Boating them is as punishing as it it effective, due to the weight and heat involved.

So no, in lore they were not uncommon, and on the MWO battlefield this now seems to be reflected.

[El Bandito]

Glythe, on 27 February 2013 - 04:28 AM, said:

Ok so let's examine the situation here. Gauss rifle was borderline OP and got health nerf. Now everyone is one again using AC/20 instead because the GR sucks unless you are sniping long range.

-snip-

I have seen less AC20s and more UAC5s. O.o

Edited by El Bandito, 27 February 2013 - 06:55 PM.

[Elizander]

El Bandito, on 27 February 2013 - 05:07 AM, said:

I have seen less AC20s and more UAC5s. O.o

Alpine

[Glaive-]

If PPCs are to be nerfed at all, I'd say their fire rate is what should be increased, but only slightly.

Glythe, on 27 February 2013 - 04:28 AM, said:

PPCs are easy mode right now

Actually I'm not sure I can take this thread seriously. PPCs are indeed strong, but in no way are they "easy mode".

Edited by armyunit, 27 February 2013 - 05:20 AM.

[Aym]

But seriously, the PPC is nowhere NEAR as ubiquitous as the Gauss was before it's nerfing. EVERY ballistic slot in use was a Gauss Rifle, the same can not be said of the PPC. Even though I think the PPC probably needs a half-point of heat added back to it, I feel that's a very low priority for balance as I feel many other weapons need tweaking much more. I still contend that the Mlas and the Llas are the two best balanced weapons in terms of game pacing and currently if you have the tonnage/crit slots (which is a bigger deal than you may think considering how hard it is to get PPC's into a heat effective atlas, IE you lose 2 potential DHS from the arms) the PPC does seem to outclass the Large Laser IMO and that is why I think it can be brought down.

[Kiiyor]

PPC's are still quite challenging to hit with for higher ping folk. At least with lasers I can spray them all over the place like a drunk wielding a crayon and get at least SOME damage. PPC's are... hit and miss. That's the point.

PPC's sucked before, and are balanced now. I'll often still take LL's or LPL's over them, all depends on what I want to do.


People like using them because they are now a viable choice, not the only choice.

[KKRonkka]

People just tend to complain about weapons they aren't using themselves, usually when they see excessive weapon boating which seems "op" this kind of threads appear. Finally there's some kind of attempt to balance energy weapons (PPC and LPL) and make them useful, so what's with this continuing "protruding nail will get hammered down" policy?

[Yokaiko]

Aym, on 27 February 2013 - 05:27 AM, said:

PPC does seem to outclass the Large Laser IMO and that is why I think it can be brought down.

The PPC is supposed to outclass the Llas.

Its bigger, heavier, generates more heat AND has all of the downsides of energy (heat) and ballistics (firing delay)...not to mention the damage hit from its minimum range.

The PPC is supposed to be a feared weapon, on the scale of a gauss rifle. This is the first time the damn things have felt right since closded beta.

[Lukoi Banacek]

Glythe, on 27 February 2013 - 04:42 AM, said:

The fact that the PPC has a low number of critical slots is why I suggest the health nerf and the zero damage within 90m change.

If you don't feel the new PPC is every bit as powerful as the old Gauss rifle you are deluding yourself. We all know how that one turned out.... Gauss rifle is now only featured on sniper builds and is about 10 times more rare than the AC/20 on the battlefield (used to be the other way around).

I love opinions presented as if they were facts. Even moreso when presented in an insulting tone. Now whats going tohappen is people will completely discredit your opinion as a rant (and rightly so) even if your point may have had merit initially, and a complete derailment of the thread may well occur. Thus, any Dev who might have considered looking at your points will be completely turned off by the petty name callling and insults that always emerge from such a well written copy such as the one above.

To the point originally opined, no I disagree that PPC need a nerf and there are no facts to prove that here. Just anecdotes and opinions based on one persons apparently very limited experience with them. I dont even run them much myself and certainly not nonER since the recent patch.

[Glythe]

KKRonkka, on 27 February 2013 - 05:50 AM, said:

People just tend to complain about weapons they aren't using themselves, usually when they see excessive weapon boating which seems "op" this kind of threads appear.

Nice try... but no. I've played jsut about every mech in the game and I've tried all kinds of strange weapon configurations. I have some builds that use PPCs ..... made a new one tonight for the Atlas and put up a score of 1000 damage in the first game. Note that I haven't used the PPC until recently since the closed beta.

As for how often the PPC appears that is going to vary with whom you play against. I've been in games recently where there were only 2-3 mechs that didn't have PPCs. And that immediately reminded me of the old Gauss rifle.

I recently replaced 2 LL with 2 PPC in one of my builds and I was flabbergasted. The LL were actually far less heat effecient even though the numbers would suggest otherwise. Do you know why? You can drop a mech so much faster with 2 PPC than 2 Large Lasers because all the damage is in one place. If you are used to aiming the AC/20 you will have few problems with the PPC (I'm still not used to the speed difference so I tend to over lead a distant target).

Lukoi, on 27 February 2013 - 05:53 AM, said:

To the point originally opined, no I disagree that PPC need a nerf and there are no facts to prove that here. Just anecdotes and opinions based on one persons apparently very limited experience with them. I dont even run them much myself and certainly not nonER since the recent patch.

So you know how often I play? That's interesting. I'm in a clan of about 200 people and it's not just my opinion as I've talked to a lot of folks and asked them what they have seen. And I love the kicker where you say at the end that you don't even run regular PPCs. That's quite funny if you're trying to add anything meaningful to the conversation.

One more thing.... devs dont read this forum unless it is a really controversial topic that stays on the front page for about a week and a moderator has flagged it for them.

Edited by Glythe, 27 February 2013 - 06:11 AM.

[Royalewithcheese]

PPC is fine. It's a good long-range weapon, (especially if boated) but questionable at close range because of heat management. That's IMO pretty much where it should be.

[xRatas]

PPC is fine. To be fair, they have been decent after speed buff, now they are good.

And PPC bolt should be almost instant. It is THE antimech weapon in battletech, so it should be good. It should be able to fire under 90m, just with reduced performance. It certainly is close to what it is "supposed" to be.

Gauss is still popular, I see more gauss than AC20. LPL is actually quite good on heat/damage scale. We must be playing different games. Or we just both only see what we want to see. Pick your choice.

Seriously, we have balance issues, but PPC certainly is not one of them. And I've been using PPCs since I joined in, ER variants have not been viable before latest patch, now I like to have at least 2 in many of my mechs, they are finally something that won't actually handicap you, if you mount them.

Edited by xRatas, 27 February 2013 - 06:27 AM.